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Old 11-24-2011, 07:52 PM   #211
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Lopez, the way I have been taught (which is only one teaching and thus, relative), they're not written by the apostels themselves but based on their direct witness accounts. There's a difference.


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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
so the OT isn't a reliable text? God never actually asked people to stone the blasphemers? is that what Christians believe and preach?
I can't speak for every christian. You seem to view them as one entity. There are differences between christians (roman catholics, protestants,...), though, so I'm not going to talk for them all.

I've already give you my view as a former catholic on the bible. I struggled with it but unlike your view on religion and christianity (as I understand it), I focused on what I saw as the core and the essence (Jesus' teachings) and I did view the bible as flawed. I saw Jesus as a good guide and moral compass in life.

You have a very specific view on christianity and you seem to be fixed on boxing them into your strict definition.

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Old 11-24-2011, 07:59 PM   #212
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Lopez, the way I have been taught, they're not written by the apostels themselves but based on their direct witness accounts. There's a difference.


I can't speak for every christian. You seem to view them as one entity. There are differences between christians (roman catholics, protestants,...), though, so I'm not going to talk for them all.

I've already give you my view as a former catholic on the bible. I struggled with it but unlike your view on religion and christianity (as I understand it), I focused on what I saw as the core and the essence (Jesus' teachings) is flawed. Others will disagree with me.


I understand that's what you've been taught, but the fact is that there is really not much proof that they would have been written by anyone even remotely close to Jesus. The gospels were originally anonymous; it's only after some time that they were named and "writers" ascribed to them.
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:03 PM   #213
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
I can't speak for every christian. You seem to view them as one entity. There are differences between christians (roman catholics, protestants,...), though, so I'm not going to talk for them all.

I've already give you my view as a former catholic on the bible. I struggled with it but unlike your view on religion and christianity (as I understand it), I focused on what I saw as the core and the essence (Jesus' teachings) and I did view the bible as flawed. I saw Jesus as a good guide and moral compass in life.

You have a very specific view on christianity and you seem to be fixed on boxing them into your strict definition.
is there any Christian denomination that you know of that teaches that the OT isn't a reliable text and that God never actually asked people to stone blasphemers?
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Old 11-24-2011, 08:21 PM   #214
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
is there any Christian denomination that you know of that teaches that the OT isn't a reliable text and that God never actually asked people to stone blasphemers?
It's not as simple as a "christian denomination" either.

I wish that I hadn't slept so much during sermons in church because I do remember that our priest talked about just that but I don't remember exactly what he said about it. However, my priest was a man who lived with a woman and who clashed with his superiors to no end, so I never had a strict view on such things to begin with (so, if I get your strict views correctly, I never was a catholic to start with, right?). I always viewed the bible as flawed but I accepted Jesus as my moral compass back then.

Maybe somebody else can help out with your game.
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Old 11-25-2011, 06:58 AM   #215
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
So what?

How is the Christian message feministic?
What is what?

Jesus looked women's company and defended their cause at the time society cast stones on 'em. That's common knowledge. Womens could be missionaries along with men.



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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
The quest for understanding is the quest for truth. It is no wonder that Christianity has been the major enemy of scientific endeavour, and hence of progress and advancement.
Quest for FACTS. Thank you. If the premise is wrong, no need to read the rest.

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Originally Posted by Lopez
To be fair, he only said that we don't need religion to explain how the world works and that things previously ascribed to Gods or explained by religion have been explained by science.
And I repeat that the Christian faith does not claim to explain how the World works. Hence, there ain't nothing that was formerly explained by God and that's now explained by physics. There ain't no overlapping between Science and Religion, though some atheists love to think that way.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:12 AM   #216
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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And I repeat that the Christian faith does not claim to explain how the World works. Hence, there ain't nothing that was formerly explained by God and that's now explained by physics. There ain't no overlapping between Science and Religion, though some atheists love to think that way.
Historically there has been though. Nowadays religion has a more metaphysical role than it did in the past.

Anyway, Aloimeh and a lot of other fundamentalists would disagree with you here as well. I agree in the sense that as long as religion doesn't make scientific claims (and it tends not to in modern western societies) then there is no overlap.

However, I wouldn't say they're enitrely compatible either. Science is looking for answers to questions like morality and the beginning of the universe which might overlap.

In addition, combining evolution with Christianity does give rise to some interesting questions. If morality is absolute and given only to humanity by God, in which phase of the evolutionary process did this happen? When does a soul enter a fetus? Moreover, if humans are the only creatures with souls, when was the first human born that had a soul but the parents didn't? Just interesting questions in my opinion.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:47 AM   #217
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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God didn't write deuteronomy. Some jerks in Babylon did.
Jesus would be spinning on his cross if he knew this levitical filth is being passed off as God's law.
Did God write a single verse in the bible? Bible was wrote by people who had God in them
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Old 11-25-2011, 01:06 PM   #218
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
What is what?

Jesus looked women's company and defended their cause at the time society cast stones on 'em. That's common knowledge. Womens could be missionaries along with men.
You are using the word Christian as meaning "of or related to Jesuschrist". Which is fine, but may I remind you that all Christian denominations posit Jesus and the OT God are the same, and should therefore not be analysed as separate beings.

Quote:
Quest for FACTS. Thank you. If the premise is wrong, no need to read the rest.
Why exactly is the premise wrong? Because you say so?

I say you're saying that same thing I said. Facts are things known or proved to be true.

Quote:
And I repeat that the Christian faith does not claim to explain how the World works. Hence, there ain't nothing that was formerly explained by God and that's now explained by physics. There ain't no overlapping between Science and Religion, though some atheists love to think that way.
That is nonsensical... Christianity makes monumental scientific claims. It makes the claim that there is a soul separate from the physical body, that there it is possible to survive your own death, that there exists an omniscient, omnipotent, supernatural being who created the universe... all of those are scientific claims.

And of course, thousands of things used to be explained by God and are now explained by science. Every time less and less.
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:18 PM   #219
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Did God write a single verse in the bible? Bible was wrote by people who had God in them
It is very unlikely God has ever written or told anyone anything. Dreams and visions can be faked and can be just that - dreams. Besides, communication is something humans developed through signs and sound. It's humorous how everyone naturally thinks God knows how to communicate. He/she/it is not supposed to be human.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:57 PM   #220
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It is very unlikely God has ever existed
fixed.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:58 PM   #221
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Forget the topic at hand

Seingeist's writing style
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Old 11-25-2011, 06:55 PM   #222
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Historically there has been though. Nowadays religion has a more metaphysical role than it did in the past.

Anyway, Aloimeh and a lot of other fundamentalists would disagree with you here as well. I agree in the sense that as long as religion doesn't make scientific claims (and it tends not to in modern western societies) then there is no overlap.
Aloimeh says what he wants, not my problem.

Historically, the Romans and the Old Greek believed in supernatural things causing natural phenomena. Think of Ulysses defying Poseidon in the Odyssey. With Jesus Christ, all that stopped.

There ain't no superstition in Christianism. Some "Christians" might just have kept the Pagan beliefs. That's all.

By the way, atheists are not superstition-free. Superstition is the act of giving an object a dismeasured value compared to what it really is. Hence there ain't no difference between a Pygmy with his blessed piece of wood and the Westerner with his Reason, an immaterial object compared to a material object, that's all. The idea that Reason would save the World is so naive and superstitious. Historically, the opposite has even been proven.

If I may respond to your last sentence, I'd say yes but NOMA should be prohibitive towards Science/Reason too. Subjectivity (Christians would call it 'soul') does exist. It can't be objectively described. Hence scientist should stay away from it.

Killing subjectivity (which includes Freedom) is after all the Bolsheviks' ultimate goal.

Quote:
You are using the word Christian as meaning "of or related to Jesuschrist". Which is fine, but may I remind you that all Christian denominations posit Jesus and the OT God are the same, and should therefore not be analysed as separate beings.
I do it. I'm neither a Jew nor a Protestant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Har-Tru
That is nonsensical... Christianity makes monumental scientific claims. It makes the claim that there is a soul separate from the physical body, that there it is possible to survive your own death, that there exists an omniscient, omnipotent, supernatural being who created the universe... all of those are scientific claims.
No. (see my alinea above on subjectivity)

By the way I've reason not to believe in the omnipotence of God. That's probably personal.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:14 PM   #223
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Aloimeh says what he wants, not my problem.

Historically, the Romans and the Old Greek believed in supernatural things causing natural phenomena. Think of Ulysses defying Poseidon in the Odyssey. With Jesus Christ, all that stopped.

There ain't no superstition in Christianism. Some "Christians" might just have kept the Pagan beliefs. That's all.

By the way, atheists are not superstition-free. Superstition is the act of giving an object a dismeasured value compared to what it really is. Hence there ain't no difference between a Pygmy with his blessed piece of wood and the Westerner with his Reason, an immaterial object compared to a material object, that's all. The idea that Reason would save the World is so naive and superstitious.
I noticed you have a tendency to define things the way you want. Superstition is not even close to meaning what you make it to mean. Here's how the Oxford Dictionary of English defines the word superstitition:

1 Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural.

2 A widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences, especially as leading to good or bad luck, or a practice based on such a belief.



Atheists (who by the way are not a uniform mass, it's annoying when people bunch us all together) do not believe in anything supernatural. At least the vast majority of them.

Your comparison of a blessed piece of wood with reason knocked me off the chair, in all fairness. What on earth does the one have to do with the other??

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Historically, the opposite has even been proven.
I'm not sure I'm following you here.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:04 PM   #224
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
I noticed you have a tendency to define things the way you want. Superstition is not even close to meaning what you make it to mean. Here's how the Oxford Dictionary of English defines the word superstitition:

1 Excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural.

2 A widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences, especially as leading to good or bad luck, or a practice based on such a belief.



Atheists (who by the way are not a uniform mass, it's annoying when people bunch us all together) do not believe in anything supernatural. At least the vast majority of them.

Your comparison of a blessed piece of wood with reason knocked me off the chair, in all fairness. What on earth does the one have to do with the other??



I'm not sure I'm following you here.
I have a feeling Echoes is trotting out the Stalin argument. It's tired, it's inaccurate, but that won't stop people from using Stalin's Russia as an example of reason gone mad.

As Sam Harris said, no society has ever suffered from its people being too reasonable.
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:50 PM   #225
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Why exactly is the premise wrong? Because you say so?

I say you're saying that same thing I said. Facts are things known or proved to be true.
I skipped that yesterday (no time) but it reminds me of a scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade at the uni when Indy wrote the "FACTS" on the blackboard saying something like archeology is dealing facts and not truth, "if you want a lecture on truth, go to the philosophy department".

Facts are objective truthS. Not THE truth. Subjective truth also exists. The subjective truth can even be truer than the objective truth which is mainly a superficial truth.

---------

Okay I might have confused the term 'superstition' with 'fetishism'.

In this respect, my comparison is still right. I also fell off my chair when a Professor of mine at uni made the same comparison, but since then I've realized it's true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey
I have a feeling Echoes is trotting out the Stalin argument. It's tired, it's inaccurate, but that won't stop people from using Stalin's Russia as an example of reason gone mad.
If it were only that.

It all started with the French Revolution (of 1792!), I guess.

Saying that the christianized world (pre-1792) was less freedom-friendly than the dechristianized world that followed, is not only not following me but also not following the facts.

You might wanna take conscription for example. For France, it was invented by the Convention and accepted by the dechristianized French people. Those who combatted it, Vendeans or Chouans, were massacred in unspeakable atrocities, by the "Realists" from the young French Republic. For sure, the Kings would have wished to have such absolute power but they never succeeded.

Conscription lasted during all of Buonaparte's Empire + the 3rd Republic in 1914. Is that what you call being free?


If scientists invented (or whichever verb you like, no matter) Freedom, than they should be able to describe it positively. Not sure it is possible.

Bakhtin showed that Science had a monologic (single-voiced) discourse, opposed to dialogic discourses of carnivals.

Last edited by Echoes : 11-26-2011 at 05:09 PM.
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