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Old 11-24-2011, 05:49 PM   #196
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
I only expect my questions to be answered
Do you really?

You will never be satisfied with an answer given by a christian in here because you clearly find christianity total fiction only followed by the gullible and delusional so what's the purpose of your questions exactly if not mockery and playing out a superiority complex? Let's be honest here.

I may no longer consider myself as a believer so I'm sharing quite a few of your doubts but I don't see your point in wanting answers when you're never going to accept them.
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Old 11-24-2011, 05:50 PM   #197
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Sorry, you seem quite unable to grasp the role or meaning of Jesus. He's not just another "messenger" as the Muslim world sees him, he's the God himself. His coming was foretold, he came, and everything he said/taught is the essence of Christianity. Some random verse from OT that could've very well come from the human writer, and not from the God himself, cannot be more pertinent than what Jesus/God himself was saying. And now you cherry-pick things from OT and scream "look, this is written in OT, if you don't fully agree you're not Christian". Sorry, that's not your call, capiche?
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Old 11-24-2011, 05:55 PM   #198
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

Whatever his intentions are, habibko's questions are legitimate and pretty straightforward. And they haven't been answered yet.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:11 PM   #199
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Whatever his intentions are, habibko's questions are legitimate and pretty straightforward. And they haven't been answered yet.
Yes, they have been but they're just not the answers he's looking for.

I can't answer them properly because I'm outside of it. I can simply talk about what I believed when I was a child and early teen before I stepped out of it all: I did believe in the OT but I also believed that the bible was an account of god and his creation (to be simplistic) but written down by humans, thus flawed and written with the social context of a long time ago in it.
For example, I was taught in a catholic school (granted, not a conservative one) for example that the beginning of the bible (with the creation of the world in 6 days + 1 rest day) was not to be taken literally but it was a story to explain things, to get a certain message across, just like Jesus loved to tell fictional stories to get a message across, to teach.
The main stronghold of my faith used to be Jesus and what he did and say in the NT while realising that we're talking about the same god as in the OT.

I struggled with it (not helped by the fact that I had a strong dislike for the pope and I have an even bigger dislike for the current pope) but a really great priest once told me that Jesus once said that he could understand that people had difficulty accepting it all and believing that he's the son of god but Jesus added (I'm sure some can easily come up with the exact quote and the right references): "if you don't believe in me for who I am, believe in me for what I do".

I may no longer think Jesus is the son of god but I still think that perhaps a man, a human like the rest of us, did live about 2000 years ago. A man with a lot of charisma. I still find him a great and inspirational figure as he was written about in the NT.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:14 PM   #200
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Do you really?

You will never be satisfied with an answer given by a christian in here because you clearly find christianity total fiction only followed by the gullible and delusional so what's the purpose of your questions exactly if not mockery and playing out a superiority complex? Let's be honest here.

I may no longer consider myself as a believer so I'm sharing quite a few of your doubts but I don't see your point in wanting answers when you're never going to accept them.
I don't know how they square these moral questions and keep on worshipping such a God, if they told me clearly they reject all the bad things in the OT and only accept the good things Jesus commanded, I'll have more respect for their beliefs, but it wouldn't make sense for them to call themselves Christians any longer, unless there was a Christian denomination that rejects the OT (plus the bad parts in the NT) that I haven't heard of

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Originally Posted by Taejin View Post
Sorry, you seem quite unable to grasp the role or meaning of Jesus. He's not just another "messenger" as the Muslim world sees him, he's the God himself. His coming was foretold, he came, and everything he said/taught is the essence of Christianity. Some random verse from OT that could've very well come from the human writer, and not from the God himself, cannot be more pertinent than what Jesus/God himself was saying. And now you cherry-pick things from OT and scream "look, this is written in OT, if you don't fully agree you're not Christian". Sorry, that's not your call, capiche?
I don't think God's atrocious acts (such as stoning for blasphemy) can be explained away by human modification of the text, I'm talking about things Christians really do believe God himself ordained

if you are going to be skeptic about texts in the OT you might as well be skeptic about NT and the foundations of faith itself, that's what atheists are after all, they just go more steps than you and don't cherry-pick
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:16 PM   #201
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
But that is the whole point... atheists are implicitly calling all believers delusional by the mere fact of being atheists.
This is true. And it of course also works the way as well.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:18 PM   #202
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
I don't know how they square these moral questions and keep on worshipping such a God, if they told me clearly they reject all the bad things in the OT and only accept the good things Jesus commanded, I'll have more respect for their beliefs, but it wouldn't make sense for them to call themselves Christians any longer, unless there was a Christian dominion that rejects the OT that I haven't heard of
I understand your doubts.

I'm far, far from an expert so if anybody wants to correct me, feel free:
I think that the story as it is told in the OT is shared to a large degree with the Jewish faith but they don't view Jesus as the son of god so that's where the two religions go apart.
Christianity (following Jesus, the son of god, the messiah, the christ) centers more around Jesus. So, it's logical that they focus on Jesus and thus, the NT. (at least, I can understand it). They don't reject the OT, I think, but to them, the NT is more clear and offers a clearer message, guide and example to follow.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:22 PM   #203
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

What I find interesting about Jesus is that so few actual facts are known of him, yet he's created a huge following.

Many of the stories in the Old and New testament can be found in other mythologies as well.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:30 PM   #204
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

^I love Greek mythology.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:33 PM   #205
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
I understand your doubts.

I'm far, far from an expert so if anybody wants to correct me, feel free:
I think that the story as it is told in the OT is shared to a large degree with the Jewish faith but they don't view Jesus as the son of god so that's where the two religions go apart.
Christianity (following Jesus, the son of god, the messiah, the christ) centers more around Jesus. So, it's logical that they focus on Jesus and thus, the NT. (at least, I can understand it). They don't reject the OT, I think, but to them, the NT is more clear and offers a clearer message, guide and example to follow.
this isn't an answer to my question, not only do they believe their God and the God of the Jews (Yahweh) is the same, they actually believe in the OT and accept the acts of God in the OT as legitimate, I didn't hear any Christian say [nah actually God originally said "let my people blaspheme my name all they like and don't hurt them in the name of freedom of speech, for I'm merciful like that, oh and leave gays alone" and then came a bad Jew and changed the text to "stone them all!"]
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:46 PM   #206
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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this isn't an answer to my question
Surprise, surprise.
Like I said, you're not ready for an answer.


I'm just explaining why some christians are not holding on to every single word in the bible but focus on the main message told by Jesus (which you find unacceptable, so it seems).

You don't accept that because to you (if I understand you correctly), you either accept it all or you don't. I understand why you accuse some of cherry-picking but I think you're doing it too.
(you're thinking too much in extremes for me, mate )

Let me try again as I was taught (so, I underline, I'm only speaking for my experiences as a former catholic):

My teachers said the following about how the OT was written. It's based on accounts told orally for ages and ages from generation to generation, from parents to children to their children to ....
Finally, people decided to write all these accounts down but to frame it, they used their own social context.

For the NT and to write this down, people used more direct accounts and more direct witness accounts, namely by the apostles Matthew, Marc, Luke, John. You can see how very human it all is because those 4 witness accounts differ at times just because their perspective differed.
This more direct (and thus, more reliable) account is, as I always understood it, the main reason why christians will hold on to the NT more closely. That and the existence of Jesus in the NT.

I'm sure you'll dismiss this as well but I've tried.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:48 PM   #207
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Yes, they have been but they're just not the answers he's looking for.

I can't answer them properly because I'm outside of it. I can simply talk about what I believed when I was a child and early teen before I stepped out of it all: I did believe in the OT but I also believed that the bible was an account of god and his creation (to be simplistic) but written down by humans, thus flawed and written with the social context of a long time ago in it.
For example, I was taught in a catholic school (granted, not a conservative one) for example that the beginning of the bible (with the creation of the world in 6 days + 1 rest day) was not to be taken literally but it was a story to explain things, to get a certain message across, just like Jesus loved to tell fictional stories to get a message across, to teach.
The main stronghold of my faith used to be Jesus and what he did and say in the NT while realising that we're talking about the same god as in the OT.

I struggled with it (not helped by the fact that I had a strong dislike for the pope and I have an even bigger dislike for the current pope) but a really great priest once told me that Jesus once said that he could understand that people had difficulty accepting it all and believing that he's the son of god but Jesus added (I'm sure some can easily come up with the exact quote and the right references): "if you don't believe in me for who I am, believe in me for what I do".

I may no longer think Jesus is the son of god but I still think that perhaps a man, a human like the rest of us, did live about 2000 years ago. A man with a lot of charisma. I still find him a great and inspirational figure as he was written about in the NT.
I could have written this myself.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

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The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:59 PM   #208
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Surprise, surprise.
Like I said, you're not ready for an answer.
I explained why I don't find your answer satisfactory, the fact that you are agnostic yourself shows you realize the Christian answers aren't satisfactory yourself, not sure why you are arguing in their place here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
I'm just explaining why some christians are not holding on to every single word in the bible but focus on the main message told by Jesus (which you find unacceptable, so it seems).

You don't accept that because to you (if I understand you correctly), you either accept it all or you don't. I understand why you accuse some of cherry-picking but I think you're doing it too.
(you're thinking too much in extremes for me, mate )

Let me try again as I was taught (so, I underline, I'm only speaking for my experiences as a former catholic):

My teachers said the following about how the OT was written. It's based on accounts told orally for ages and ages from generation to generation, from parents to children to their children to ....
Finally, people decided to write all these accounts down but to frame it, they used their own social context.

For the NT and to write this down, people used more direct accounts and more direct witness accounts, namely by the apostles Matthew, Marc, Luke, John. You can see how very human it all is because those 4 witness accounts differ at times just because their perspective differed.
This more direct (and thus, more reliable) account is, as I always understood it, the main reason why christians will hold on to the NT more closely. That and the existence of Jesus in the NT.

I'm sure you'll dismiss this as well but I've tried.
so the OT isn't a reliable text? God never actually asked people to stone the blasphemers? is that what Christians believe and preach?
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Old 11-24-2011, 07:06 PM   #209
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
What I find interesting about Jesus is that so few actual facts are known of him, yet he's created a huge following.

Many of the stories in the Old and New testament can be found in other mythologies as well.
People are always most appreciated long after they're gone. In Jesus' case, he probably never even arrived.. it's no wonder he is so revered.
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Old 11-24-2011, 07:19 PM   #210
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Default Re: "Misogynistic" passages in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Surprise, surprise.
Like I said, you're not ready for an answer.


I'm just explaining why some christians are not holding on to every single word in the bible but focus on the main message told by Jesus (which you find unacceptable, so it seems).

You don't accept that because to you (if I understand you correctly), you either accept it all or you don't. I understand why you accuse some of cherry-picking but I think you're doing it too.
(you're thinking too much in extremes for me, mate )

Let me try again as I was taught (so, I underline, I'm only speaking for my experiences as a former catholic):

My teachers said the following about how the OT was written. It's based on accounts told orally for ages and ages from generation to generation, from parents to children to their children to ....
Finally, people decided to write all these accounts down but to frame it, they used their own social context.

For the NT and to write this down, people used more direct accounts and more direct witness accounts, namely by the apostles Matthew, Marc, Luke, John. You can see how very human it all is because those 4 witness accounts differ at times just because their perspective differed.

This more direct (and thus, more reliable) account is, as I always understood it, the main reason why christians will hold on to the NT more closely. That and the existence of Jesus in the NT.

I'm sure you'll dismiss this as well but I've tried.
This is where you're mistaken, they're not eyewitness accounts according to historians though and they're written 35-65 years after his death.
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