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Old 11-17-2011, 06:45 PM   #61
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
I guess Americans find it hard to understand how the recent wave of Muslim immigration affects Western societies, since their Muslim immigration quota is much lower than in Europe.

Where I'm from, Islamic individuals and institutions have been asking for the ban of an ancient festivity depicting the reconquista, the historical events in which the Christians conquered the various kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula back from the Moors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moros_y_cristianos

This is an intrinsical part of Valencian tradition, now under threat by religious zealots, with the connivance of some local appeasers and religion apologists, providing a perfect example of "tolerance of intolerance".


Another example from personal experience, this time in Germany: some months ago, in the school where I teach, taking advantage of the good weather and the school facilities, we decided to offer a barbecue to some Belgian guests we were hosting. Us being in Germany, we obviously bought tons of sausages. But knowing that some of the students were Muslim (mainly Turkish), we also bought some chicken filets and even some beef.

But alas! One of our German students, keen to help, committed the unspeakable sin of taking some of the chicken filets with the same tongs he'd grabbed the sausages. That was the dinner right there. Some of the Muslim students saw it, and we were forced to throw away most of the meat. The Muslim students from Belgium stormed out, taking the rest of the Belgian delegation for which the dinner had been planned, and most of our Turkish students with them.

So don't come and tell me the Muslim influence in Western societies is a myth and we shouldn't be alarmed by the developments.
reading that makes me feel pretty bad for europe... and it's not the first account i have heard of the like... the revolving door policy does have to stop and stop pretty soon... until at least the latest wave of immigration has had time to age and assimmilate, and once that latest assimmilation has taken place (if it does) only then can the west say - 'right, you come here so have some respect for how your new life was won - here's how it was done, now get on with it and don't f**k up'...

because we all know this: should the unlikely event of a mass migration eastward of western civilation, those westerners would be, not asked, but demanded to tow the line... tow the line... or what...? deportation...? detainment...? dismemberment...? take your pick... the tolerance of the west has been pushed to the absolute limit... but, that tolerance was fought for for so long through the ages that we today have no idea of the cost...

it would appear to me that this very tolerance of the west that I speak of is the very same tolerance that is being abused in order to import a culture which will subvert the natural path of the freedoms that have been won and worth winning for the centuries...

tolerance is a wonderful asset for any culture... probably even worth standing arms for... but, somewhere along the line we became so dumbed down by the expectation for people to do the sensible thing (something that tolerance demands) when entering a new environment...

maybe it's not until something touches you personally, such as the story above, that one could come to realise something is not right... or maybe we are so tolerant that in order to keep the peace we aren't prepared to let on that anything is wrong... 'give it time'...

certainly, as a decent human being, i would be offended in the absolute extreme (i can't even find the superlative to acknowledge how offended i would be) if i were to have the above incident, born from good nature and good nature alone, be shoved back in my face due to a mistake, a problem probably unknown up until that moment by the person committing the act...

what should have been an arena to share and mix culture ('umm, sorry, we don't do that... *washes utensils* here's how we do...?) instead was a reason to cause maximum insult in return...

so where is the tolerance displayed in the above story that *IS* the trademark of modern europe...?

that is not the behaviour of a moderate society... it would not even qualify as a single step backwards... when the pillar of tolerance that has been fought for for the ages in europe after mistake upon mistake is question in such a militant fashion, you then tell me how many steps backward it is when that same tolerance is given but then not returned on your very own soil...

would be like me stepping inside your front door and telling you to get the f*ck out of of your own place because the shoes out the front were not aligned the way i do at my place... pretty handy methodology to acquire vast amounts of real estate actually...
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Old 11-17-2011, 06:56 PM   #62
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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it would appear to me that this very tolerance of the west that I speak of is the very same tolerance that is being abused in order to import a culture which will subvert the natural path of the freedoms that have been won and worth winning for the centuries...
Well-stated and right on the money, fast clay.


Oh, and @Har-Tru, I reread through the thread and I still find it difficult to determine whom exactly you're addressing.

If it was me, I think that you have me quite mistaken.

I'd not dare minimize the cultural threat that Islam poses to the Western world in the wider sense; my statement above concerned only the more immediate threat to religious freedom (specifically Christian) in the United States.

You're quite right that what you call the "Muslim immigration quota" is much lower in the US than it is in Europe. We are not being "Islamicized" to anywhere near the extent that Europe is. Obviously, this is not true merely as a function of the immigration rate and geographical location; you might say that Americans have a pretty ingrained cultural "resistance" to Islam. That 3000 of our innocent civilians were targeted and murdered 10 years ago in the name of radical Islam obviously doesn't help matters much.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:09 PM   #63
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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Common hypocritical doublespeak designed to silence Christians. Every time that we (people, citizens, etc.) open our mouths to say something, or debate with someone, or educate someone about anything, or design and enact legislation, we are, in a sense, "forcing our beliefs on [someone] else." The only way that this can be avoided is to believe and assert nothing, which is absurd.
You are forcing your religious beliefs on someone when those beliefs inspire a political agenda. It is no secret that gay marriage is opposed almost exclusively for religious reasons. Such things are unconstitutional.

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"Forcing beliefs on anyone else" would really only be meaningful in the context of a state religion, in which case it would be punishable by law not to believe certain religious tenets (as it is in some Islamic countries). As it stands, it's an empty (and bad-faith) claim made mostly by whinging anti-Christians who are desperate for them to flee from the public discourse.
When the pledge includes the phrase 'One nation under God' the state is endorsing a religion. Again, its place in the pledge is unconstitutional.

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Atheists are the least trusted 'group' in the USA. You are either ignorant or lying to yourself if you do not think that atheists are persecuted in America. It is common knowledge and widely reported. There is a reason why politicians in the USA do not come out as atheists, even though I am certain many are. It is almost impossible to be elected unless you have an invisible friend. The Presidency is certainly not even close to being a realistic goal for the areligious.

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-a...-trusted-group

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They're abundant, such that it is more practical to speak broadly or categorically. They tend to lie in the attempts to purge Christianity from schools, universities, institutions, and media. If you're not already more than familiar with these (e.g. attacks on school prayer, on public displays of the nativity scene, etc.), you can do the research as easily as I can.
Of course it is more practical to speak broadly, since you have no specific examples.

Allow me to correct you. Secularists tend to tell the truth and keep religion out of science classes. Religion is not science and should not be taught as such. Are you telling me that there is no opportunity to study religion in educational institutions? Think carefully before answering, as I am eager to bury you with the facts.

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You don't seem to understand how this works, do you? The burden is on you to make a case in the first place for your own insulting and false assertion.
Fair enough. These should get you started. Happy debunking.

"If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death..." Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head;" 1 Corinthians 11:9, 10.

"Wives submit to your husbands, as is fitting to the Lord." Colossians 3:18

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Imagine if I said, "Clydey, you're a homophobe and a racist," and then when you replied, "That's absurd," I said, "Well, it should be easy to prove me wrong then." The point, of course, is not at all the ease or difficulty of the task. The point is that it's not your job to build a case against a mere careless, insulting, unsupported assertion.
Poor analogy. By all means deconstruct the facts that support my 'careless, insulting, unsupported assertion'.

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Yes. (Boy that was easy)
I'm looking forward to watching you tie yourself in knots while attempting to reconcile this view with the facts.

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This is mistaken. Morality (i.e. the nature of good and evil) does not change. Practices and rituals can and do change, and the reasons for their employment are in no way reducible simply to "good and evil."
Of course it changes, since there is no absolute good and evil. The moral zeitgeist is always tentative. What is evil to you is not evil to someone else. Good and evil are as indefinable as crime.

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Also, strictly speaking, cultural context is completely relevant to absolute morality; human actions are always informed and determined by a particular context.
If morality is absolute, actions are either right or wrong no matter where or when they take place. You cannot claim absolute morality exists and in the same breath advocate a multicultural, relativist view. Absolute morality means that if an action is evil in the USA, for example, it is also evil in Pakistan.

Yes, human agency is always informed and determined by environment, but absolute morality is constant. Again, if god is perfect and he asserted that homosexuality was wrong thousands of years ago, it then follows that it must be wrong today. This applies to all moral statements within the bible.

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For example, let's say that in one culture, shaking hands is a sign of respect, and in another, bowing is a sign of respect. In one culture, it would be wrong not to bow in certain scenarios, and in the other, wrong not to shake hands.
You are not describing absolute morality. You are describing moral relativism, which is context sensitive. You seem to be utterly confused at this point. You say that absolute morality is influenced by culture and then go on to describe an example of moral relativism to back your claim.

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However, it should be obvious that this does not somehow refute absolute morality just because we cannot set out some principle, "It is always wrong not to bow to your superiors." Rather, the operative principle is more broad (e.g. it is wrong to show gratuitous disrespect to people), but in its specific application, the moral action itself changes based on the cultural context.
Give me an example of a moral absolute.

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Old 11-17-2011, 07:17 PM   #64
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

It's funny that we are having this discussion today, Seingeist. I just happened to be talking online with someone I know from an MMORPG. This issue was central to the discussion.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:23 PM   #65
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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When the pledge includes the phrase 'One nation under God' the state is endorsing a religion. Again, its place in the pledge is unconstitutional.
The phrase doesn't endorse any particular religion and doesn't come with a set of rules. It doesn't limit anyone's freedom.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:26 PM   #66
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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The phrase doesn't endorse any particular religion and doesn't come with a set of rules. It doesn't limit anyone's freedom.
It endorses the view that a god exists. That is exclusionary, since not everyone is a theist. Atheists and agnostics are excluded.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:30 PM   #67
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

Tiny deal. It's like complaining about christmas and easter because not everyone celebrates xtian hollidays.

It's not like it's a ban on stem cell research...
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:33 PM   #68
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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Ahh yes, Grassquet, now you remember. An unwarranted, inflammatory, baseless attack directed against me as a Christian.
You could ignore it you know.
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Old 11-17-2011, 07:39 PM   #69
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Tiny deal. It's like complaining about christmas and easter because not everyone celebrates xtian hollidays.
Yeah, it's no big deal that American citizens are made to feel inferior because they do not believe in a deity. Kind of like it was no big deal when women were considered inferior to men, right?

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It's not like it's a ban on stem cell research...
Another religiously motivated agenda. Contemptible.

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Old 11-17-2011, 09:36 PM   #70
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Yeah, it's no big deal that American citizens are made to feel inferior because they do not believe in a deity. Kind of like it was no big deal when women were considered inferior to men, right?


I'm sure american atheists who aren't insecure will it off as a meaningless superstition.

And what about all the poor christians who are made to feel inferior because of condescending atheists that ridicule their faith, such as yourself?
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:01 PM   #71
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You could ignore it you know.
Are you serious? He shouldn't have to ignore it.

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The 'spiritual' author is supposedly God. That is the one entity I am referring to.
I thought about that for a second but then dismissed the thought as I concluded that if you were indeed referring to God you would have worded it differently. (Because if you agree that there could exist one supreme "author" - who is also creator of the Universe - then would it really be strange to worship that entity?)
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Secondly, who said anything about each of the actual authors describing the role of women in an identical fashion? The fact is that women aren't exactly valued in the bible, to put it mildly.
This is false. *sigh*.

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Isn't God perfect? Cultural context should be irrelvant to an absolutist version of morality. If God is so insular as to be influenced by the moral zeitgeist, he is far less enlightened than many mere humans who have engineered change over the centuries. Your average participant in civil rights movements is more enlightened than your god.
I could respond seriously to this but it won't make any difference anyway.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:04 PM   #72
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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I'm sure american atheists who aren't insecure will it off as a meaningless superstition.

And what about all the poor christians who are made to feel inferior because of condescending atheists that ridicule their faith, such as yourself?
What does that have to do with anything? I don't recall the first amendment stating that people's views cannot be challenged. Not that it would matter to me, since I'm not American.

This issue is trivial to you because you don't identify with it. If this was about women instead of atheists, you would feel differently.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:07 PM   #73
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Are you serious? He shouldn't have to ignore it.

I thought about that for a second but then dismissed the thought as I concluded that if you were indeed referring to God you would have worded it differently. (Because if you agree that there could exist one supreme "author" - who is also creator of the Universe - then would it really be strange to worship that entity?)
This is false. *sigh*.

I could respond seriously to this but it won't make any difference anyway.
See my response to Seingeist. I've listed a few quotes that support what I said.

You will no doubt continue to be evasive rather than properly engage me, though.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:39 PM   #74
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See my response to Seingeist. I've listed a few quotes that support what I said.

You will no doubt continue to be evasive rather than properly engage me, though.
Trying to provoke me again. I already said that I have no interests in discussing these things with someone who is out to prove me wrong, it's a waste of time. I can't win the discussion and you sure can't either, since my faith is based on a lot more than only theories.
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During this year’s United States Open, Soderling said, he was watching a match on television when his young daughter came into the room. For a moment, she watched her father watching the tennis, but then she interrupted.

“She wanted to watch Dora,” Soderling said. “So, I said, ‘O.K.’ We watched Dora.”
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:50 PM   #75
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Default Re: Bill Maher owns this bitch on The View

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Trying to provoke me again. I already said that I have no interests in discussing these things with someone who is out to prove me wrong, it's a waste of time. I can't win the discussion and you sure can't either, since my faith is based on a lot more than only theories.
You are unwilling to discuss your opinions with people who disagree with you? Wow, just wow.
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