Federer 2004 (74-6) vs. Djokovic 2011 (70-6) - Page 5 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: Which year was better? Time travel match?

Federer's season in 2004 was better and would win the time travel match 111 55.78%
Federer's season in 2004 was better, but would lose the time travel match 4 2.01%
Djokovic's season in 2011 is better, and would win the time travel match 59 29.65%
Djokovic's season in 2011 is better, but would lose the time travel match 25 12.56%
Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-06-2011, 10:28 PM   #61
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
You like the rest of the Rafole fans seem to think Roddick & Hewitt were at the same level back then as they are now.

No, but the game has moved on while they haven't improved that much IMO.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:42 PM   #62
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
No, but the game has moved on while they haven't improved that much IMO.
Roddick made the mistake of actually conforming to the direction the game was going became a pusher and Hewitt, playing a DEFENSIVE, energy-sapping style, burnt out, slowed down and ran out of gas. The game certainly didn't move on, if anything it's de-volved into a contest of athleticism and speed and not tennis.

As for Djoko in past eras, he'd be competitive solely on hard courts, the slow ones. On 90s grass he'd look like an ice skater on mud and on clay there were too many Spartan topspin fighters from the baseline to let a non-fighter like him win in Paris.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:56 PM   #63
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

Djokovic would lose 6-3 6-2 vs 2004 Fed.
I think Nole's year is over, and he won't win more than 1 slam in 2012.
But I also can be wrong, nobody denies he was the best player in 2011... But it's almost impossible for him to have another year like this one.
I see him winning one slam next year, any of them, he's multi-superficial.
And besides the big 4, the other players are pretty bad, but I don't see him winning over Nadal in clay again.
And I see "very-olderer" beating him again without problems.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:04 PM   #64
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt01 View Post
No, but the game has moved on while they haven't improved that much IMO.
Do you mean "while they haven't DECLINED that much IMO"? Because otherwise it makes no sense.

Anyway, they have declined hugely. And like rocketassist I'm not happy at all with the direction tennis is going. The game is only about fitness now and the touch and finesse parts of the game are disappearing.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:09 PM   #65
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by Pirata. View Post
Put prime Novak in the 80s or early 90s and he is not winning any slams period
this.

it's not only for the better quality of the players at the time (a big factor that should be accounted) but also for the quality of the courts and the variety of the game. even though most noletards started watching tennis in 2009 and thus think that the court differences accross different surfaces never mattered much, the reality is that in years gone by, when tennis was actually tennis, it did matter. A LOT. Just an example: back in the eighties and the nineties the differences between clay and grass were so big that to win RG and Wimby you needed to have a massive talent in order to change your style and your game plan. To stay in the backcourt winning the rallies on the clay of Paris and then serven and volley, chip and charge, etc, in the grass of London.

these days it's all a big joke. the powers that be have slowed down everything that was fast and speeded up what was slow. thus the capability to adapt to different surfaces in pretty much gone for it has become unnecessary. if to that add that the players seriously lack talent because tennis has pretty much become a show of endurance instead of skill, then you have the perfect recipe for a complete traiwreck on an era.

indeed, djokovic wouldn't have won any slams in the ´80s or '90s.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:16 PM   #66
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by Nirjhor View Post
You forgot to mention Tim Henman's name. He was ranked 6 in 2004.

Here is the Year-end ranking of 2004.
The irony. NOW we're in a discussion about Fed's competition now that's it's seemingly more convenient.

Fair enough. Let's take a look at Fed's competition that year and what they actually did.

2. Andy Roddick
-Slams: 0 titles, 1 final
-Masters: 1 Master, 1 final
-Worst slam performance: 2nd round French Open exit
-Worst Masters performance: 1st round Rome exit

3. Lleyton Hewitt
-Slams: 0 slams, 1 final
-Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
Worst slam performance: 4th round Australian Open exit
Worst Masters performance: 2nd round Rome exit


4. Marat Safin
-Slams: 0 slams, 1 final
-Masters: 2 Masters, 0 finals
-Worst Slam performance: 1st round U.S. Open & Wimbledon exits
-Worst Masters performance: 1st round Canada exit


5. Carlos Moya
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 1 Master, 0 finals
-Worst slam performance: DNP Australian Open; 3rd round Wimbledon exit
-Worst Masters performance: 2nd round Indian Wells exit


6. Tim Henman
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
-Worst slam performance: 3rd round Australian Open exit
-Worst Masters performance: 2nd round exits in Miami, Hamburg and Canada


7. Gillermo Coria
-Slams: 0 slams, 1 final
-Masters: 1 Masters, 2 finals
-Worst slam performance: DNP U.S. Open; 1st round Australian Open exit
-Worst Masters performance: DNP 4 Masters; 1st round Canada exit


8. Andre Agassi
-Slams: 0 Slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 1 Masters, 0 finals
-Worst Slam performance: DNP Wimbledon; 1st round Wimbledon exit
Worst Masters performance: DNP 4 Masters; 2nd round Canada exit


9. David Nalbandian
Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
Masters: 0 Masters, 2 finals
Worst Slam performance: DNP Wimbledon; 2nd round French Open exit
Worst Masters performance: DNP 4 Masters; 1st round exits in Canada and Hamburg


10. Gaston Gaudio
Slams: 1 slam, 0 finals
Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
Worst Slam performance: DNP Wimbledon; 2nd round exits at Australian & U.S. Open
Worst Masters performance: 1st round exits in Rome, Canada & Hamburg


So for 2004, here's how bad the 10 ten were:

Slams:
-DNP: 5
-1st or 2nd round exits: 8

Masters:
-DNP (4 or more): 3
-1st or 2nd round exits: 14


CURRENT Top 10 for 2011:

2. Rafael Nadal
-Slams: 1 slam, 2 finals
-Masters: 1 Masters, 4 finals
Worst Slam performance: 4th round Australian Open exit
Worst Masters performance: 2nd round Canada exit


3. Andy Murray
-Slams: 0 slams, 1 final
-Masters: 2 Masters, 0 finals
-Worst slam performance: French, Wimbledon & U.S. Open SF exit
-Worst Masters performance: 2nd round exits in Indian Wells, Miami & Canada


4. Roger Federer
-Slams: 0 slams, 1 final
-Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
Worst slam performance: QF exit at Wimbledon
Worst Masters performance: 3rd round exits at Rome and Canada


5. David Ferrer
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 0 Masters, 2 finals
-Worst Slam performance: 4th round exit at French, Wimbledon & U.S. Open
-Worst Masters performance: 2nd round at Indian Wells


6. Tomas Berdych
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
-Worst Slam performance: 1st round exit at French Open
-Worst Masters performance: 3rd round exit at Monte Carlo & Shanghai


7. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
-Worst slam performance: 3rd round exit at Australian & French Open
-Worst Masters performance: 2nd round exits at 5 Masters


8. Mardy Fish
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 0 Masters, 1 final
-Worst slam performance: 2nd round exit at Australian Open
-Worst Masters performance: 1st round exit at Madrid


9. Nicholas Almagro
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
Worst slam performance: 1st round exits at French & U.S. Open
-Worst Masters performance: 1st round exit in Madrid


10. Janko Tipsarevic
-Slams: 0 slams, 0 finals
-Masters: 0 Masters, 0 finals
-Worst Slam performance: 1st round Wimbledon exit
-Worst Masters performance: 1st round exits at Monte Carlo & Shanghai


So for 2011, here's how bad the 10 ten were:

Slams:
-DNP: 0
-1st or 2nd round exits: 5

Masters:
-DNP (4 or more): 0
-1st, 2nd, or 3rd round exits (because of byes): 18


Side-by-side comparisons

Instances where slams were skipped
2004: 5
2011: 0

Instances where there was a 1st or 2nd round exit in a slam:
2004: 8
2011: 5

Instances where 4 or more Masters events were skipped:
2004: 3
2011: 0

Instances where there was a 1st or 2nd round exit in a Masters event (because of byes, 2011 players' 3rd round exits are counted):
2004: 14
2011: 18


Seems to me that 2004 did a lot worse overall than today's guys

Last edited by MIMIC : 11-06-2011 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:21 PM   #67
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
Do you mean "while they haven't DECLINED that much IMO"? Because otherwise it makes no sense.

Anyway, they have declined hugely. And like rocketassist I'm not happy at all with the direction tennis is going. The game is only about fitness now and the touch and finesse parts of the game are disappearing.
Yep. I hate how people disparage Hewitt and Roddick on here. They were damn good players back in the day, maybe not all-time great caliber, but certainly a hell of a lot better than people give them credit for. You don't win slams and get to multiple slam finals by being a bad player. And there's a reason neither of these two have been to a slam final since 2006 (barring W 2009, where Roddick played very well and deservedly made the final).
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:31 PM   #68
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
The irony. NOW we're in a discussion about Fed's competition now that's it's seemingly more convenient.

<snip>

Seems to me that 2004 did a lot worst overall than today's guys
Why did you bold their worst performances instead of the best results? Why are you counting "DNP" as worst performance? You also didn't point out that in 2004 four players in the top 10 didn't make a single major final (MS or GS) whereas in 2011 only one player didn't. I think it's clear that the surfaces are more homogenized now (the difference in a player's preferred surface in 2004 is very clear; in 2011 it almost doesn't matter what surface two players play on, the result will most likely be the same). There are fewer upsets today, in the early stages and the later rounds. That also means there is less competition among the top 10 and very few surprising results. It's clearly a different dynamic, which you could argue makes it easier to dominate today than it did in 2004.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:31 PM   #69
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

Homogenization hadn't kicked in yet in 2004, so there was still the diversity of clay guys such as Coria, Gaudio, Moya, Guga, Costa making an impact at those events, Safin, Agassi and Roddick excelling on hard courts and Roddick, Hewitt, Schalken, Scud, Henman, Alex Popp making inroads on grass and the likes of Federer and Nalbandian's all court games transcending across them all.

Not to mention the talent that was PimPim emerging on the scene at the USO. If he hadn't been injured the way he was, he could seriously have been a fixture at the top. He had one of the best serves I've ever seen when he broke through.

Quote:
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Seems to me that 2004 did a lot worse overall than today's guys


Another Noletard strikes. Those skewed stats made my eyes hurt.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:42 PM   #70
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechlan View Post
You also didn't point out that in 2004 four players in the top 10 didn't make a single major final (MS or GS) whereas in 2011 only one player didn't.
The other way around mate but yeah, I thought about that too. Hilariously one-sided stats. As you said, it's not really a surprise there were more early upsets back then, considering some of the players were surface specialists & prone to upsets on surfaces they didn't like.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:46 PM   #71
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by Mechlan View Post
Why did you bold their worst performances instead of the best results?
Andy Roddick was ranked 2nd and was knocked out in the 2nd round of a slam. Nadal is ranked second and his worst result was a QF exit. How is that not relevant when comparing the supposed STRENGTH of the field?

But let's flip it anyway:

Instances where there was a slam title or a final:
2004: 5
2011: 5

Instances where there was a Masters title or a final:
2004: 11
2011: 10

Ummmm....ok?

Quote:
Why are you counting "DNP" as worst performance?
Well I didn't want to create a separate category for it; it's neither a "grestest" nor "worst" result, but it definitely isn't good at all....so I placed it within the worst category.

But you can't claim that a field was supposedly strong when they didn't even show up.

Quote:
You also didn't point out that in 2004 four players in the top 10 didn't make a single major final (MS or GS) whereas in 2011 only one player didn't. I think it's clear that the surfaces are more homogenized now (the difference in a player's preferred surface in 2004 is very clear; in 2011 it almost doesn't matter what surface two players play on, the result will most likely be the same). There are fewer upsets today, in the early stages and the later rounds. That also means there is less competition among the top 10 and very few surprising results. It's clearly a different dynamic, which you could argue makes it easier to dominate today than it did in 2004.
Just like how a player can't help who faces them on the other side of the net, the players can't help which surface they play on. And like I said earlier, Roddick went out in the 1st round 2 years later after he won the slam. I'd say it's more of a PLAYER problem rather than a surface problem.

EDIT: I made a mistake: Roddick went out in the 1st round of 2005, not 2004.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:52 PM   #72
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Who was the tenth player in 2004?

31 slams, 9 WTFs between 10 players = 30 slams, 6 WTFs between three players.

Only a spaz would say 2011 field > 2004 field.
You are comparing the 2004 players based on 2004 results and before though, right?
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:52 PM   #73
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by Orka_n View Post
The other way around mate but yeah, I thought about that too. Hilariously one-sided stats. As you said, it's not really a surprise there were more early upsets back then, considering some of the players were surface specialists & prone to upsets on surfaces they didn't like.
So now we have excuses being made for when the top 10 were upset in 2004....even thought they were so allegedly amazingly strong.

Ridiculous double-standards in here
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:10 AM   #74
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
So now we have excuses being made for when the top 10 were upset in 2004....even thought they were so allegedly amazingly strong.

Ridiculous double-standards in here
I never said each top tenner in 2004 excelled on every surface, Einstein. They had their specialties. But together they made for a fearsome top 10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIMIC View Post
Andy Roddick was ranked 2nd and was knocked out in the 2nd round of a slam. Nadal is ranked second and his worst result was a QF exit. How is that not relevant when comparing the supposed STRENGTH of the field?

But let's flip it anyway:

Instances where there was a slam title or a final:
2004: 5
2011: 5

Instances where there was a Masters title or a final:
2004: 11
2011: 10

Ummmm....ok?
The only interesting thing here is how those titles and finals were spread out over the entire top 10 in 2004, not just the top 4 which is the case in 2011. This is what happens with surface specialist, like I mentioned before.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:12 AM   #75
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Default Re: Federer 2004 vs. Djokovic 2011

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Originally Posted by Snowwy View Post
You are comparing the 2004 players based on 2004 results and before though, right?
If we're going on that, then they have 18 slams between them (Fed -12, Safin -1). 12 slams less, but that's cause they've been shared out between more players.

JCF's injury problems fucked him over too and saw him drop out of that 10 and he's also got a GS title.

Roddick's exit was at RG where he's ALWAYS sucked.
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