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Old 01-23-2013, 11:24 PM   #121
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Dude, it's a discussion forum. Discuss. I've asked a bunch of pretty simple questions, why don't you have a crack at answering them?

Personally I think it is pretty piss weak of you to come in here and tell people they're wrong/ignorant, and then refuse to actually put forward your own arguments. Seems to indicate to me that you're all hot air and no substance.
Those are not simple questions.The same goes for answers.I'm not gonna give them to you on this forum.Period.You're talking about 8000 killed in Srebrenica?What are your sources?Naser Orlic and his unit killed 11 Serbian soldiers?It's more like 3500 Serbs(mostly civilians) and many burnt Serbian villages near Srebrenica.Btw, where are you from?
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:28 PM   #122
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
Yea, it's the usual "if you are not with us, then you're against us". To make things more grotesque, each side will sooner or later claim God and justice is/was on their side, never mind that the same God teaches compassion and peace.

Again, it's all oh-so simplified. There were also people in there for the money, for the political points, for other more or less bizarre reasons, different sides had support from different foreign countries who in turn had their own disparate interests, yada-yada. Some people sooner or later realized how utterly pointless and futile it all was, some probably never will.
I´d venture to say that most of the politicians at the top belonged to this group. For instance, Milosevic himself I would characterise more as power crazy than as nationalistic, not to mention the cadre of criminals and ´businessmen´ that earned money over the backs of those that fought. Repugnant stuff, really.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:30 PM   #123
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Time Violation View Post
The "why" usually generates infinite number of pages whether in books, press, magazines, forums etc. The shortest and most basic explanation (in my opinion of course) is vicious circle. Both official and unofficial history was teaching a lot of generations that the Serbs suffered 500+ years under Turks, i.e. Muslims, and also that hundreds of thousands died in Croatian Nazi death camps; the WW2 wasn't that long ago and still many people had their relatives/parents/friends lost there, so when the civil war happened, a number of people thought it was finally "payback time" and "an eye for an eye".

Of course, violence generates more violence which generates more violence and so on. When it all ended, then on all sides it was mostly all about who started it first, who was more guilty, whose losses were higher, who were the good guys and who are the bad guys, everybody pointing fingers to the other side and more-less that still goes on. The all-present myopia and failure to see the bigger picture, is unfortunately not something easily curable.
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Yea, it's the usual "if you are not with us, then you're against us". To make things more grotesque, each side will sooner or later claim God and justice is/was on their side, never mind that the same God teaches compassion and peace.

Again, it's all oh-so simplified. There were also people in there for the money, for the political points, for other more or less bizarre reasons, different sides had support from different foreign countries who in turn had their own disparate interests, yada-yada. Some people sooner or later realized how utterly pointless and futile it all was, some probably never will.
Good points.Some people here obviously can't understand the complexity of what happened and know little about that region's history.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:55 PM   #124
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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I´d venture to say that most of the politicians at the top belonged to this group. For instance, Milosevic himself I would characterise more as power crazy than as nationalistic, not to mention the cadre of criminals and ´businessmen´ that earned money over the backs of those that fought. Repugnant stuff, really.
Please don't stop there. You have more work to do. The problem is universal isn't it? That our elites plunder and lie to the masses: wall street and the bailout, congress, iraq war (haliburton)... ad infinitum? This is the type of hypocritical journalism that was rampant during the balkan wars, and still perpetuates today. Why tell me to remove the speck in my eye when you have a plank in your own eye?

Repugnant stuff, really.
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Even David Ferrer? (Roger 14 - 0 David)

Or, Roger loses even before QF? lol

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Old 01-23-2013, 11:59 PM   #125
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

The reason, Caesar, you are not getting a good response is because you're not only getting all the answers wrong...you're getting all the questions wrong. You know so little that you can't even ask the right questions. And then when people don't bite, you set out to "educate" us, which becomes a pointless exercise.

From my perspective, before we talk about Srebrenica in 1995, we should talk about why the Bosnian war happened and how it began in 1992.

Before you talk about fake genocides that never took place, we should talk about real genocide that took place in WWII.

Since you are so obsessed with Srebrenica, perhaps you should look at a website detailing one of the Serbian counterperspectives before flippantly dismissing it as "11 POWs."

http://4international.me/2008/02/15/...a-and-gorazde/
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:59 PM   #126
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Oracle View Post
Please don't stop there. You have more work to do. The problem is universal isn't it? That our elites plunder and lie to the masses: wall street and the bailout, congress, iraq war (haliburton)... ad infinitum? This is the type of hypocritical journalism that was rampant during the balkan wars, and still perpetuates today. Why tell me to remove the speck in my eye when you have a plank in your own eye?
There's the pointing fingers... didn't take long

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From my perspective, before we talk about Srebrenica in 1995, we should talk about why the Bosnian war happened and how it began in 1992.
QED
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:00 AM   #127
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

Ah yes, the hypocrisy argument. ´The same things go on in the West, so why are we the only ones that are held accountable for it´? Thing is, we have fuck all to say on an international scale and no influence whatsoever on what happens there. What we are able to do is fix ourselves so Serbia will be a halfway decent country to live in. Or would you say things are going well down there?
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:07 AM   #128
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
The reason, Caesar, you are not getting a good response is because you're not only getting all the answers wrong...you're getting all the questions wrong. You know so little that you can't even ask the right questions. And then when people don't bite, you set out to "educate" us, which becomes a pointless exercise.

From my perspective, before we talk about Srebrenica in 1995, we should talk about why the Bosnian war happened and how it began in 1992.

Before you talk about fake genocides that never took place, we should talk about real genocide that took place in WWII.

Since you are so obsessed with Srebrenica, perhaps you should look at a website detailing one of the Serbian counterperspectives before flippantly dismissing it as "11 POWs."

http://4international.me/2008/02/15/...a-and-gorazde/
This.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:14 AM   #129
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Those are not simple questions.The same goes for answers.I'm not gonna give them to you on this forum.Period.You're talking about 8000 killed in Srebrenica?What are your sources?Naser Orlic and his unit killed 11 Serbian soldiers?It's more like 3500 Serbs(mostly civilians) and many burnt Serbian villages near Srebrenica.Btw, where are you from?
What are YOUR sources? You're going against pretty much all mainstream reports of the war. The onus is on you to demonstrate that your account is the correct one.

This is my point. I'm getting my information from things like independently-verified UN reports. You're saying that's lies. I'm willing to accept that maybe my information is wrong, but I'm hardly going to take your word for it. Give me something to work with here!

Quote:
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The reason, Caesar, you are not getting a good response is because you're not only getting all the answers wrong...you're getting all the questions wrong. You know so little that you can't even ask the right questions. And then when people don't bite, you set out to "educate" us, which becomes a pointless exercise.

From my perspective, before we talk about Srebrenica in 1995, we should talk about why the Bosnian war happened and how it began in 1992.

Before you talk about fake genocides that never took place, we should talk about real genocide that took place in WWII.

Since you are so obsessed with Srebrenica, perhaps you should look at a website detailing one of the Serbian counterperspectives before flippantly dismissing it as "11 POWs."

http://4international.me/2008/02/15/...a-and-gorazde/
I'm not really interested in discussing why the war started. I'm more interested in what actually happened during the war. People talking about fake massacres and stuff aren't providing me with anything of substance to correct my impressions, if they are in fact incorrect.

A link to one website that basically quotes Serb propaganda from the war isn't really going to cut it. Have you got anything else?
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:15 AM   #130
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
The reason, Caesar, you are not getting a good response is because you're not only getting all the answers wrong...you're getting all the questions wrong. You know so little that you can't even ask the right questions. And then when people don't bite, you set out to "educate" us, which becomes a pointless exercise.

From my perspective, before we talk about Srebrenica in 1995, we should talk about why the Bosnian war happened and how it began in 1992.

Before you talk about fake genocides that never took place, we should talk about real genocide that took place in WWII.

Since you are so obsessed with Srebrenica, perhaps you should look at a website detailing one of the Serbian counterperspectives before flippantly dismissing it as "11 POWs."

http://4international.me/2008/02/15/...a-and-gorazde/
Oh God,why did I open this link.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:23 AM   #131
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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I'm more interested in what actually happened during the war. People talking about fake massacres and stuff aren't providing me with anything of substance to correct my impressions, if they are in fact incorrect.
I'm afraid you won't find what you're looking for. To know at least in some part what happened there, you had to be there, in the war itself. I can only say I'm very lucky I wasn't old enough at time to be there, but many were far less fortunate.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:26 AM   #132
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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What are YOUR sources? You're going against pretty much all mainstream reports of the war. The onus is on you to demonstrate that your account is the correct one.

This is my point. I'm getting my information from things like independently-verified UN reports. You're saying that's lies. I'm willing to accept that maybe my information is wrong, but I'm hardly going to take your word for it. Give me something to work with here!


I'm not really interested in discussing why the war started. I'm more interested in what actually happened during the war. People talking about fake massacres and stuff aren't providing me with anything of substance to correct my impressions, if they are in fact incorrect.

A link to one website that basically quotes Serb propaganda from the war isn't really going to cut it. Have you got anything else?
Actually, no, the onus is not on us. You asked us questions, so the onus is on you to independently investigate how reliable each side's statements are, if indeed you are interested in the whole truth. The fact that the UN or US state department say something hardly makes it "impartial" - as the very partial behavior of these players demonstrated.

I am actually very interested in how the war started and what the first atrocity of the war was. Because it happens to have been a massacre of about 80 Serb civilians and POWs in Sijekovac, which took place in March 26, 1992. And I'm sure you didn't know that. I'm also sure you don't know where the village of Sijekovac is, or indeed where the municipality of Bosanski Brod is located.

See how little you know? And yet you assert and state and insist away...when you lack knowledge, like an ignorant fool.

Some people have given you answers. You have failed to engage in dialogue, instead accusing posters of weak arguments, bias, whatever. The problem is you don't approach this with even a smidgen of open-mindedness. You have very set ideas and you think we're going to waste our time disproving that kind of garbage? Guess again.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:26 AM   #133
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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What are YOUR sources? You're going against pretty much all mainstream reports of the war. The onus is on you to demonstrate that your account is the correct one.

This is my point. I'm getting my information from things like independently-verified UN reports. You're saying that's lies. I'm willing to accept that maybe my information is wrong, but I'm hardly going to take your word for it. Give me something to work with here!


I'm not really interested in discussing why the war started. I'm more interested in what actually happened during the war. People talking about fake massacres and stuff aren't providing me with anything of substance to correct my impressions, if they are in fact incorrect.

A link to one website that basically quotes Serb propaganda from the war isn't really going to cut it. Have you got anything else?
If you dont want to know cause and background of the war,you will never understand what happened in the same.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:29 AM   #134
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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The "why" usually generates infinite number of pages whether in books, press, magazines, forums etc. The shortest and most basic explanation (in my opinion of course) is vicious circle. Both official and unofficial history was teaching a lot of generations that the Serbs suffered 500+ years under Turks, i.e. Muslims, and also that hundreds of thousands died in Croatian Nazi death camps; the WW2 wasn't that long ago and still many people had their relatives/parents/friends lost there, so when the civil war happened, a number of people thought it was finally "payback time" and "an eye for an eye".

Of course, violence generates more violence which generates more violence and so on. When it all ended, then on all sides it was mostly all about who started it first, who was more guilty, whose losses were higher, who were the good guys and who are the bad guys, everybody pointing fingers to the other side and more-less that still goes on. The all-present myopia and failure to see the bigger picture, is unfortunately not something easily curable.
"so when the civil war happened, a number of people thought it was finally "payback time" and "an eye for an eye".

You almost have it. But, war is not just about revenge. You have not mentioned one of the most powerful motivators according to Maslow's hierarchy of needs: the need for security, safety. I don't want to assign blame to any of the people living there, but all of them desire to live in safety. Generally though, you are headed in the right direction with your "circle of violence" analogy (something which is not limited to that part of the world). We can look at the problems in the middle east. We can look at the harmful effects of dispossessing the american natives, of enslaving millions of africans, of government testing of smallpox on those same people, of the economic plundering of the middle class going on right now.

I mentioned earlier that I am more lenient towards people who fight for their own homes than for imperialists. The west, whether it was britian, spain, the dutch in south africa etc, have more sins to account for than the people of the balkans. Caesar asked how some can defend the actions of certain parties during the balkan wars. What I want to know is how can millions of people living in the west still cherish the sins of their forebears?

For example, how can the imperialist doctrine of "manifest destiny" still be popular with millions of americans? The idea that God chose the pilgrims to come to the new world to dispossess the native "savages" and go on a centuries long "crusade" of genocide to exterminate them, and break every treaty in the process. We had an entire year of american history/literature at university trying to solve the concept of "manifest destiny." We still see imperialistic war being raged around the world. Why is that? It boggles the mind regarding the evil that is in the hearts of men, ALL men.

I'm not picking on the americans or anyone else. But you need to tackle the greater sins of superpowers at the same time, instead of picking on a small region in europe, on a people who's problems are limited to where they live. I'm confident that one day we will solve our problems there and we don't need to be singled out unfairly.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone...
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And, Roger Federer ranks 5th. But any problem cannot be found? is there nothing?  

Because, Djokovic, Murray, and Nadal certainly win Roger?

Even David Ferrer? (Roger 14 - 0 David)

Or, Roger loses even before QF? lol

argument.

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Old 01-24-2013, 12:29 AM   #135
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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I'm afraid you won't find what you're looking for. To know at least in some part what happened there, you had to be there, in the war itself. I can only say I'm very lucky I wasn't old enough at time to be there, but many were far less fortunate.
Of course there is stuff that happens during wars that can't be understood by people who weren't there. But some of this stuff I would have thought would be pretty easy to at least partially substantiate some of these statements with facts (e.g. a massacre of 8000 people was faked, another massacre of 3000 people was covered up).
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