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Old 01-24-2013, 12:37 AM   #136
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Originally Posted by Caesar1844 View Post
Of course there is stuff that happens during wars that can't be understood by people who weren't there. But some of this stuff I would have thought would be pretty easy to at least partially substantiate some of these statements with facts (e.g. a massacre of 8000 people was faked, another massacre of 3000 people was covered up).
As hard as it may be for you to believe, it is not the hardest thing in the world to fake a civilian massacre of almost entirely military age men. I mean, after all, it is a well known fact that many if not most of Srebrenica's men were Naser Oric's troops and terrorists. What better way to cover up the facts of what they were and how they may have died (in battle) than by burying their bodies in memorial cemeteries and commemorating them as white-as-snow innocents who were executed? There is strong evidence of hundreds of executed prisoners (ligatures and blindfolds). There is no evidence of 8000 or even 4000.

I have *personally* dealt with a lying Bosnian Muslim woman who got refugee status and access to the US on the basis of invented injuries as being due to a Serb mortar shell, when in fact she incurred the injuries before the war at a party where they were playing with firecrackers. She eventually became so overwhelmed with guilt that she confessed everything and returned to her original home in Bosnia, in a city from which Serbs and Croats had been cleansed by Muslims. That city is Bugojno (another place you probably never heard of).

And of course that doesn't refute real victims. But a lot of the victimization is smokescreens and propaganda. Bosnian Muslim hysterical lies of 250,000 dead civilians have been abolished once and for all. They did a victim count: it was 35,000 Muslim civilians, and there is no information as to how many died at the hands of Serbs vs. Croats (vs. Muslims), how many were killed by shells and bombs vs. by massacres, etc. We have none of that all-so-important demographic information that would help us determine whether a genocide really took place. Because if it turns out that "only" 5,000-10,000 Bosnian Muslims were victims of genuine massacres (a tragedy, to be sure), their strident claims of genocide will have rung very hollow, indeed.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:37 AM   #137
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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What are YOUR sources? You're going against pretty much all mainstream reports of the war. The onus is on you to demonstrate that your account is the correct one.

This is my point. I'm getting my information from things like independently-verified UN reports. You're saying that's lies. I'm willing to accept that maybe my information is wrong, but I'm hardly going to take your word for it. Give me something to work with here!


I'm not really interested in discussing why the war started. I'm more interested in what actually happened during the war. People talking about fake massacres and stuff aren't providing me with anything of substance to correct my impressions, if they are in fact incorrect.

A link to one website that basically quotes Serb propaganda from the war isn't really going to cut it. Have you got anything else?
Where are you from?I've asked you twice.Oh one more thing, stick to your "independent/verified sources and your "unbiased" views.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:39 AM   #138
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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If you dont want to know cause and background of the war,you will never understand what happened in the same.
I'm primarily looking for facts, rather than pointing fingers over who started what. Once we've established what actually happened, we can talk about why it happened.

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Actually, no, the onus is not on us. You asked us questions, so the onus is on you to independently investigate how reliable each side's statements are, if indeed you are interested in the whole truth. The fact that the UN or US state department say something hardly makes it "impartial" - as the very partial behavior of these players demonstrated.

I am actually very interested in how the war started and what the first atrocity of the war was. Because it happens to have been a massacre of about 80 Serb civilians and POWs in Sijekovac, which took place in March 26, 1992. And I'm sure you didn't know that. I'm also sure you don't know where the village of Sijekovac is, or indeed where the municipality of Bosanski Brod is located.

See how little you know? And yet you assert and state and insist away...when you lack knowledge, like an ignorant fool.

Some people have given you answers. You have failed to engage in dialogue, instead accusing posters of weak arguments, bias, whatever. The problem is you don't approach this with even a smidgen of open-mindedness. You have very set ideas and you think we're going to waste our time disproving that kind of garbage? Guess again.
See, you assume that I don't know about Sijekovac (I do, most reports put it at less than 50 not 80).

Say what you like about the UN but their reports have more credibility due to their independent verification procedures than a bunch of Bosnian Serb wartime press releases posted on a fringe website. So again I ask. Do you have anything else?

I'm not making any assertions here. I'm just pointing out what the accepted wisdom is, and asking you to provide me with a credible alternative. I'm totally openminded. I'm totally prepared to accept that some of the stuff that the UN says is incorrect. But you have to give me an alternative.

You're asking me to examine the evidence from both sides and draw my own conclusions. That's exactly what I am attempting to do! Yet you would rather insult me and whinge about me being closeminded than actually provide me with information. What conclusion am I supposed to draw from that? That you don't have any?
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:39 AM   #139
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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I mentioned earlier that I am more lenient towards people who fight for their own homes than for imperialists. The west, whether it was britian, spain, the dutch in south africa etc, have more sins to account for than the people of the balkans. Caesar asked how some can defend the actions of certain parties during the balkan wars. What I want to know is how can millions of people living in the west still cherish the sins of their forebears?

For example, how can the imperialist doctrine of "manifest destiny" still be popular with millions of americans? The idea that God chose the pilgrims to come to the new world to dispossess the native "savages" and go on a centuries long "crusade" of genocide to exterminate them, and break every treaty in the process. We had an entire year of american history/literature at university trying to solve the concept of "manifest destiny." We still see imperialistic war being raged around the world. Why is that? It boggles the mind regarding the evil that is in the hearts of men, ALL men.

I'm not picking on the americans or anyone else. But you need to tackle the greater sins of superpowers at the same time, instead of picking on a small region in europe, on a people who's problems are limited to where they live. I'm confident that one day we will solve our problems there and we don't need to be singled out unfairly.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone...
Dude, I don't give a rat's ass about the West, I live in Serbia. Ever heard of "clean up your own back yard"?
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:50 AM   #140
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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I mean, after all, it is a well known fact that many if not most of Srebrenica's men were Naser Oric's troops and terrorists.
I can call anything a well-known fact. It doesn't mean anything. Do you have some evidence for this?

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Originally Posted by Aloimeh View Post
There is strong evidence of hundreds of executed prisoners (ligatures and blindfolds). There is no evidence of 8000 or even 4000.
Why is it then that in the Popovic trial the court found (on the basis of forensic evidence) that the number of people executed was between 5,300 and 7,900?

Genuine question, if that number is wrong then I want to know why.

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I have *personally* dealt with a lying Bosnian Muslim woman who got refugee status and access to the US on the basis of invented injuries as being due to a Serb mortar shell, when in fact she incurred the injuries before the war at a party where they were playing with firecrackers. She eventually became so overwhelmed with guilt that she confessed everything and returned to her original home in Bosnia, in a city from which Serbs and Croats had been cleansed by Muslims. That city is Bugojno (another place you probably never heard of).

And of course that doesn't refute real victims. But a lot of the victimization is smokescreens and propaganda. Bosnian Muslim hysterical lies of 250,000 dead civilians have been abolished once and for all. They did a victim count: it was 35,000 Muslim civilians, and there is no information as to how many died at the hands of Serbs vs. Croats (vs. Muslims), how many were killed by shells and bombs vs. by massacres, etc. We have none of that all-so-important demographic information that would help us determine whether a genocide really took place. Because if it turns out that "only" 5,000-10,000 Bosnian Muslims were victims of genuine massacres (a tragedy, to be sure), their strident claims of genocide will have rung very hollow, indeed.
For sure there has been plenty of lying and confusion on all sides, but let's get real. The numbers are pretty variable but I have never seen a credible source suggest that the number of Bosnian victims is anywhere near as low as 5,000-10,000. If we're going to have a discussion at least be realistic about it.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:56 AM   #141
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Of course there is stuff that happens during wars that can't be understood by people who weren't there. But some of this stuff I would have thought would be pretty easy to at least partially substantiate some of these statements with facts (e.g. a massacre of 8000 people was faked, another massacre of 3000 people was covered up).
I remember just prior to the war in Kosovo, the american press secretary james rubin (I have to restrain myself calling him names), went on the air on cnn, and shamelessly claimed that soccer fields were being used to bury thousands of dead albanians. He did a great job with this propaganda and lies and eventually softened up a naive public in the west to authorize the aggression against serbia. When the Nato occupiers entered after the war, low and behold, there were no graves, only soccer players. The media shrugged this off. No apologies.

Once Serbia is ready to deal with it's allegations, it will judge itself. We are a nation of conscience, of love for God and our neighbours. We have one of the most diverse populations in Europe where all people are welcome, more so than our neighbours. We do not however acknowledge the accusations of those who waged an imperialistic war of lies against us, and continue to do so at the kangaroo court in the Hague.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:57 AM   #142
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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I can call anything a well-known fact. It doesn't mean anything. Do you have some evidence for this?


Why is it then that in the Popovic trial the court found (on the basis of forensic evidence) that the number of people executed was between 5,300 and 7,900?

Genuine question, if that number is wrong then I want to know why.


For sure there has been plenty of lying and confusion on all sides, but let's get real. The numbers are pretty variable but I have never seen a credible source suggest that the number of Bosnian victims is anywhere near as low as 5,000-10,000. If we're going to have a discussion at least be realistic about it.
Only that their names appeared on the rosters of the Bosnian Muslim army and thus could not be included in the recent body count as civilians. Several thousand Srebrenica "civilians" were on the official rosters and thus counted as military. They even had protests about this - about not being counted as civilians.

What court made the finding and what was their reasoning? I don't have time or interest to read their transcripts, that's your job.

Let's get real: I have not seen evidence that more than 35,000 Muslim civilians were killed. I have not seen evidence regarding: 1.) who killed them (mostly by Serb forces, I'm sure, but many clearly were not); 2.) how and where were they killed (a mortar shell? bombing and crossfire? or taken prisoner, lined up and executed?).

As such, I don't know how many people were mowed down with machine guns in what could be termed conventional genocide. I would wager that the number is much smaller than has been claimed and probably is in the range of 10,000 or so, perhaps less. Horrific, yes. Genocide, absolutely not. But whatever the case may be, it has no place being mentioned alongside horrors like Auschwitz...or Jasenovac, for that matter.

I also find it curious that despite the fact that you were allegedly aware of Sijekovac (highly doubtful, but be that as it may), you are not at all puzzled by the fact that it was never taken up as a case by the ICTY or any local tribunal. How can we explain that the first atrocity of a war, in which dozens of innocent people were murdered, is not prosecuted at all? What does that tell us about the credibility of the ICTY? In my view, it is very telling.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:58 AM   #143
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

I swore I would never talk politics on MTF. Damn the OP for starting this thread.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:00 AM   #144
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Dude, I don't give a rat's ass about the West, I live in Serbia. Ever heard of "clean up your own back yard"?
Don't single us out. Period.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:03 AM   #145
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Don't single us out. Period.
And the same vultures who put up a dog-and-pony show every July in Srebrenica (burying and reburying who knows whom) will be first to pooh-pooh Serb victims and dismiss Serb grievances as "paranoia" and "ancient history." 1992 is not ancient, but 1942 apparently is. How convenient.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:08 AM   #146
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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And the same vultures who put up a dog-and-pony show every July in Srebrenica (burying and reburying who knows whom) will be first to pooh-pooh Serb victims and dismiss Serb grievances as "paranoia" and "ancient history." 1992 is not ancient, but 1942 apparently is. How convenient.
Yep. This is why I say they cannot understand because they never experienced it. Amazing how a superpower can cloak hypocrisy as justice. Same thing goes for the writing of history. The winner decides who the good and bad guys are, which facts and lies are including or excluded.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:10 AM   #147
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Once Serbia is ready to deal with it's allegations, it will judge itself. We are a nation of conscience, of love for God and our neighbours.
Yea, that's probably how Serbia looks from 10,000 miles away
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:26 AM   #148
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Yea, that's probably how Serbia looks from 10,000 miles away
Great generalization. Proves you are disingenuous and have an axe to grind, and why my dear we just don't give a damn about foreign opinion. Cheers.

In the mean time, have a look at the rich and diverse population of Serbia.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:33 AM   #149
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Only that their names appeared on the rosters of the Bosnian Muslim army and thus could not be included in the recent body count as civilians.
Okay that's cool. If it's true I've definitely learned something. Got a source?

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What court made the finding and what was their reasoning? I don't have time or interest to read their transcripts, that's your job.
WTF? If you haven't even read the forensic evidence in relation to the massacre that was collated for the trial, then how can you dismiss it so casually?

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Let's get real: I have not seen evidence that more than 35,000 Muslim civilians were killed. I have not seen evidence regarding: 1.) who killed them (mostly by Serb forces, I'm sure, but many clearly were not); 2.) how and where were they killed (a mortar shell? bombing and crossfire? or taken prisoner, lined up and executed?).

As such, I don't know how many people were mowed down with machine guns in what could be termed conventional genocide. I would wager that the number is much smaller than has been claimed and probably is in the range of 10,000 or so, perhaps less. Horrific, yes. Genocide, absolutely not. But whatever the case may be, it has no place being mentioned alongside horrors like Auschwitz...or Jasenovac, for that matter.
So to summarise:

1) You haven't looked at the evidence
2) You don't have time to look at the evidence
3) For some unspecified reason you think that the number is far less than any credible international study has proposed
4) You don't really care anyway because it was payback

Awesome.

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I also find it curious that despite the fact that you were allegedly aware of Sijekovac (highly doubtful, but be that as it may), you are not at all puzzled by the fact that it was never taken up as a case by the ICTY or any local tribunal. How can we explain that the first atrocity of a war, in which dozens of innocent people were murdered, is not prosecuted at all? What does that tell us about the credibility of the ICTY? In my view, it is very telling.
The evidence in relation to that incident is sketchy and highly conflicted. It's not possible to take it before a court because nobody knows for certain what actually happened.

If a war crime was committed it's terrible that the perpetrators couldn't be called to account, but sometimes that happens. It's not fair, but it doesn't mean that there was some kind of UN/ICTY conspiracy.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:41 AM   #150
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Default Re: Do you Serbs regret ideas of Milosovic?

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Great generalization. Proves you are disingenuous and have an axe to grind, and why my dear we just don't give a damn about foreign opinion. Cheers.
Hey, at least I'm not the one condemning the West while sitting smack in the middle of it, waging epic battles from an exceedingly safe distance. Put your money where your mouth is, eh?

Btw, just try telling someone that Albanians should get like 30% or more places in the Parliament should Kosovo ever return, and watch the reactions.
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