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Old 10-27-2011, 02:08 PM   #76
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
you are right...clay doesnt count it's not a valid surface...let's only look at those in which Murray is the best and ignore every other stat
I've already listed several reasons why it is pointless to include clay statistics for this particular stat. I can only conclude that you believe Volandri to be one of the greatest returners in the history of the sport.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:24 PM   #77
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
you are right...clay doesnt count it's not a valid surface...let's only look at those in which Murray is the best and ignore every other stat

Doesn't need to be ignored, but if this is to be done properly, you need to weight return stats by the speed of the court (and trust me, that's not easy).

This is why Chela looks to be such a godlike returner, because he hardly ever plays off clay, and when he does, he loses early.


Nadal breaks 44% of career return games on clay, 30% on hard. Makes his "average" totally misleading for both.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:34 PM   #78
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
What does that have to do with anything when we're discussing the percentage of points won when returning the first serve?
It has to do with everything when someone is propagating the theory that the best 1 st serve returner is the best returner in general.

Quote:
There is more chance that Nadal will break you, but that isn't because of his return. It's because of his rallying ability. We're talking about two separate things here.
You were talking about a pressure that returner puts on a server. I was pointing out that is a subjective matter. Someone might even feel more pressure serving against Karlovic or Isner knowing that he has to hold at any cause, because he won't be able to break back, than against Nalbandian knowing that he will throw 1 or 2 awful service games with couple of double faults.

Quote:
Nalbandian is an excellent example for the point I was making. He is, by all accounts, a superior returner to Nadal, yet has inferior numbers.
In general Nadal has 33%, Nalbandian 31%. Nalbandian has better stats on grass and both the same 29% on hard, Nadal of course leads on clay. That is hardly inferior numbers. And you are getting into category of potential of something, if Nalbandian was more consistent he would have better stats than Nadal and would have been superior returner in general, not just in certain periods of time or on certain surface. Over the course of their respective careers, he is not. Although, he might be superior in return winners stats.
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Old 10-27-2011, 06:24 PM   #79
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by HeretiC View Post
It has to do with everything when someone is propagating the theory that the best 1 st serve returner is the best returner in general.
Because that is the true test of a returner. Anyone can put a second serve return back in play, start a neutral rally, and allow their superior rallying ability to win the point. That is not the case with the first serve return, since one's ability to return takes on a greater role. Unlike when returning second serves, putting the ball back in play is not taken for granted or expected. It is a skill.

Quote:
You were talking about a pressure that returner puts on a server. I was pointing out that is a subjective matter. Someone might even feel more pressure serving against Karlovic or Isner knowing that he has to hold at any cause, because he won't be able to break back, than against Nalbandian knowing that he will throw 1 or 2 awful service games with couple of double faults.
It may be subjective, but in many cases it is also common sense. That is why I compared Nalbandian and Nadal. The vast majority would agree that Nalbandian is a superior second serve returner, yet he has inferior stats. That is my point.

Quote:
In general Nadal has 33%, Nalbandian 31%. Nalbandian has better stats on grass and both the same 29% on hard, Nadal of course leads on clay. That is hardly inferior numbers. And you are getting into category of potential of something, if Nalbandian was more consistent he would have better stats than Nadal and would have been superior returner in general, not just in certain periods of time or on certain surface. Over the course of their respective careers, he is not. Although, he might be superior in return winners stats.
I'm looking at second serve return stats, since that is specifically what I referred to. Again, you're missing the point and looking at return stats as a whole.

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Old 10-27-2011, 08:07 PM   #80
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Oh Clydey, Clydey, you had a valid thread with a good read and all off a sudden you are trying to spin it around to convince us that Murray is the best returner ever. I am not missing your point, I just don't like your goal and approach: lets take what suits us and dissregard what doesn't and lets make a point, really? In your logic lets disregard clay, cause apparently boosts up stats, I'll say lets also disregard hard courts cause some of them if not most are currently slower and have higher percentage of broken services than some of clay tournaments and count only grass tournaments cause service is hardest to break on grass. After that we will have Karol Kucera as the return goat and Nalbandian as best followed by Hewitt among active ones.
It is what it is, the best returner is the one who has highest percentage of winning return games, the best 1st serve returner is the one who has highest percentage of winning 1st serve return points, the best 2nd serve returner is the one who has highest percentage of winning 2nd serve return points, the best clutch returner is the one who has highest percentage of break points converted. Now you can break it up and talk about those things on different surfaces and different periods of time. With this being said currently Andy Murray is the best 1st serve returner on hard courts among active players.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:13 PM   #81
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by HeretiC View Post
Oh Clydey, Clydey, you had a valid thread with a good read and all off a sudden you are trying to spin it around to convince us that Murray is the best returner ever. I am not missing your point, I just don't like your goal and approach: lets take what suits us and dissregard what doesn't and lets make a point, really? In your logic lets disregard clay, cause apparently boosts up stats, I'll say lets also disregard hard courts cause some of them if not most are currently slower and have higher percentage of broken services than some of clay tournaments and count only grass tournaments cause service is hardest to break on grass. After that we will have Karol Kucera as the return goat and Nalbandian as best followed by Hewitt among active ones.
It is what it is, the best returner is the one who has highest percentage of winning return games, the best 1st serve returner is the one who has highest percentage of winning 1st serve return points, the best 2nd serve returner is the one who has highest percentage of winning 2nd serve return points, the best clutch returner is the one who has highest percentage of break points converted. Now you can break it up and talk about those things on different surfaces and different periods of time. With this being said currently Andy Murray is the best 1st serve returner on hard courts among active players.
That isn't my 'goal'. And if you don't like my 'approach', you don't like the facts. Clay does boost return stats for clay courters, without question. I have already provided data that prove it. As I said, if you want to argue for the relevance of clay to return stats, you are embracing the absurd conclusion that someone like Volandri is one of the best returners of all time. Questioning my motives is simply an ad hominem attack and does nothing to support your view.

Your entire second paragraph still supports Murray as probably the best returner ever. If I really do have an agenda, I would be arguing for their relevance. I think they are relevant to an extent, but everything except first serve return statistics is heavily influenced by the players' rallying ability. The Nadal and Nalbandian comparison illustrates this fact perfectly.

And after all of your nonsense about my having an agenda, you end your post by asserting the view that I share.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:44 PM   #82
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Ok, I accept that your goal, agenda and motives aren't to portreit Murray as the best returner of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Statistically, Murray is the best returner of his era and perhaps of all time. Overall, his return statistics are almost unmatched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
That isn't my 'goal'. And if you don't like my 'approach', you don't like the facts.

Your entire second paragraph still supports Murray as probably the best returner ever. If I really do have an agenda, I would be arguing for their relevance.

And after all of your nonsense about my having an agenda, you end your post by asserting the view that I share.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:02 AM   #83
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Ok, I accept that your goal, agenda and motives aren't to portreit Murray as the best returner of all time.
Again, a pure ad hominem. The statistics suggest that he is. Rather than address those, you insist on focusing on a fictional agenda. Indeed, much of what I've said has been about the second serve, where I stated that Agassi and Nalbandian are far more effective than both Murray and Djokovic. As an overall returner, however, the statistics point to Murray as being the best. Dodging the facts doesn't help your cause, but rather makes you appear desperate. It's a sure sign that someone is at a loss when they resort to ad hominems.

Either way, this thread has gone way off topic. This all started as a response to Saberq calling Djokovic the return GOAT. Feel free to discuss the content of the article from now on.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:10 AM   #84
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Murray IMO has the best ROS on tour, but I personally have Agassi as the best of all time and Nalbandian and Hewitt are up there too.

Djokovic has world class backhand, defence and speed, and his ROS is excellent, but those players I mention I put ahead of him in the return stakes.

Ferrer would be up there too.

And yes clay shouldn't really come into consideration for this discussion unless you're going to pick high altitude places like Gstaad (not the overrated velocity in Madrid)
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:22 AM   #85
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Murray IMO has the best ROS on tour, but I personally have Agassi as the best of all time and Nalbandian and Hewitt are up there too.

Djokovic has world class backhand, defence and speed, and his ROS is excellent, but those players I mention I put ahead of him in the return stakes.

Ferrer would be up there too.

And yes clay shouldn't really come into consideration for this discussion unless you're going to pick high altitude places like Gstaad (not the overrated velocity in Madrid)
that is why Murray leads the tour in brakes ...wait
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:26 AM   #86
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

It really makes no sense that Murray is leading those stats... it's not like he's giving bagels and breadsticks everywhere.
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:30 AM   #87
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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It really makes no sense that Murray is leading those stats... it's not like he's giving bagels and breadsticks everywhere.
He has given out plenty of bakery products.

Either way, it wouldn't matter. Murray is less secure on serve than Djokovic. For that reason, Djokovic is more likely to win a lopsided set this year.
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:33 AM   #88
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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He has given out plenty of bakery products.

Either way, it wouldn't matter. Murray is less secure on serve than Djokovic. For that reason, Djokovic is more likely to win a lopsided set this year.
and given that he is A MUCH BETTER PLAYER THAN HIM
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Old 10-28-2011, 07:54 AM   #89
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Well a potebtially very insightful discussion has now become a 'tard war, this thread has been destroyed by the 'tards.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:25 AM   #90
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Again, a pure ad hominem. The statistics suggest that he is. Rather than address those, you insist on focusing on a fictional agenda. Indeed, much of what I've said has been about the second serve, where I stated that Agassi and Nalbandian are far more effective than both Murray and Djokovic. As an overall returner, however, the statistics point to Murray as being the best. Dodging the facts doesn't help your cause, but rather makes you appear desperate. It's a sure sign that someone is at a loss when they resort to ad hominems.

Either way, this thread has gone way off topic. This all started as a response to Saberq calling Djokovic the return GOAT. Feel free to discuss the content of the article from now on.
And now you have gone too far. Do you even read what are you writing or what others are writing or how more and more ridiculous your posts are getting? What Ad Hominem ffs? I said that you had a valid thread and a good read, but that I don't like your attempt trying to spin facts and truth disregarding one stats and grasping only to others to picture Murray as return GOAT (what you repeatedly stated like a zillion times). Where is the personal attack in that? Where do you see me dodging facts, it is you who is doing that (lets not count clay, lets not count grass, lets not count games won, second serves or break points and lets count only 1st serve return because CLYDEY says that is the REAL return, 2nd serve return is only for starting a rally , we all know players don't rally on first serve points, nothing else should matter, and we will call it a FACT, fu.k the official stats and atp, they got things wrong, we all know it is Murray who has to be the best returner).

And I did not have any cause, I was simply quoting atp stats when I got into this thread.

BEST RETURNER is the one who is having best percentage in winning return games and that is the the end of it. If you don't like it go write a fu.king petition to ditch clay results and other stats from the books, except 1st serve return on hard courts to help Murray's cause.

P.S. It would have been Ad hominem if I called you thickheaded poster who always tends to pull things like this without talking about the subject and facts.
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