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Old 10-27-2011, 01:42 AM   #46
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
Djokovic broke Tsonga at will sometimes at Wimbledon 2 days after your GOAT had only 1 break point
Murray broke Tsonga at will in the last two sets at Wimbledon last year. Point being?

Even Nadal can break Federer at will on that slow ass second week Centre Court.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:47 AM   #47
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
Murray broke Tsonga at will in the last two sets at Wimbledon last year. Point being?

Even Nadal can break Federer at will on that slow ass second week Centre Court.
Yeah, Nadal breaks Olderer so easily, especially in that Wimby 2008 final, as easy as on clay....
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:02 AM   #48
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

This thread appears to have gotten sidetracked. Some statistics to back how good a returner Murray is:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Matchfac...c=6&s=0&y=2011
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:12 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

here learn from the best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Qh-r77Sk4
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:23 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
He does return better. Watch how he gets all over Karlovic's serve. Not that joke of a serve your man's got.
Agassi mostly excelled as a second serve returner, not a first serve returner. Andre is 54th all time on points won returning the first serve, which puts him well behind Murray, who is at number 5 (behind only clay courters like Coria).
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:28 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Haelfix View Post
Its hard to pick between Murray and Djokovic returning wise. Its very close!

I think Djokovic returns first serves a bit better (like a percentage point) and Murray might deal with 2nd serves a bit better (like a percentage point). Novak's baseline is probably a bit better this year too, so the stats will be jilted. Anyway, I think Murray deals with spinny serves better than anyone i've ever seen, whereas Djokovic's general ability to peg even very hard serves deep at the servers feet is also revolutionary.

I have seen better return of first serves before (Hewitt, Fed in his prime, a few others) and I have seen better more aggressive 2nd serve returns (Nalbandian, Agassi etc) but yea overall its hard to argue that Murray and Djokovic are a cut above right now overall.
You actually have it the other way around. Murray has been the superior first serve returner this year, while Djokovic has been the superior second serve returner. But again, points won on 2nd serve return are mostly about rallying ability. The true test of a returner is how they return the first serve. Either way, Murray is superior to Djokovic all time in every return stat except BP conversion. Case closed, really.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:32 AM   #52
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
Yeah, Nadal breaks Olderer so easily, especially in that Wimby 2008 final, as easy as on clay....
Once in the first, twice in the second, had 0-40 in the third...shoulda been a 6-4 6-4 6-4 win really.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:34 AM   #53
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Agassi mostly excelled as a second serve returner, not a first serve returner. Andre is 54th all time on points won returning the first serve, which puts him well behind Murray, who is at number 5 (behind only clay courters like Coria).
I said Agassi due to his Wimbledon 92 success and his ability to thump winners off opposition first serves.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:02 AM   #54
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
I said Agassi due to his Wimbledon 92 success and his ability to thump winners off opposition first serves.
He may have done that more than most, but he ultimately won far fewer points and was prone to being aced a lot. On second serves, there's no doubt that Agassi and perhaps Nalbandian were the most effective. They go after every second serve, unlike Murray and Djokovic. The latter are often content to gain some sort of advantage off of the second serve return, while occasionally stepping in to hit winners. The former are more inclined to try and create an almost insurmountable advantage whenever they have the opportunity on second serves.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:35 AM   #55
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Topspindoctor View Post
Mugray struggled to return Isner's serve on slow(ish) court of USO, he was struggling to break him and spent like 4 hours outlasting him physically because he couldn't do shit against his serve. Mugray is an overrated returner, sure he can return Nadal's serve like nothing (who can't), but the real test is against a BIG server and that is where Djoker is better.
What? Do I need to say it for you. We all know who that mug is, Federer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saberq View Post
Djokovic broke Tsonga at will sometimes at Wimbledon 2 days after your GOAT had only 1 break point
Did you not read the OP? Since 2008, Fed's return game has been declining. Having a better return game than Fed nowadays, isn't anything special.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fast_clay View Post
interesting point...

nadal has been violated so much by djokovic this year that nadal packs his own lube these days... nadal's poor serve has most definitely skewed the stats for 2011, nadal shouldn't be getting troubled as much on serve by djokovic than he is this year... nadal's drop in service form is the biggest loss of faith and/or ability in any single shot in a twelve month period that i have ever seen...


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Old 10-27-2011, 08:29 AM   #56
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Murray is better than Djokovic in getting the ball in play on the opponent's serve, which will lead to more breaks in the long run. Djokovic punishes the second serve better, though not as much as Agassi did.

Now, if Djokovic keeps his ridiculous percentage that he has had this year, the averages might be different in a few years' time.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:41 AM   #57
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Murray is better than Djokovic in getting the ball in play on the opponent's serve, which will lead to more breaks in the long run. Djokovic punishes the second serve better, though not as much as Agassi did.

Now, if Djokovic keeps his ridiculous percentage that he has had this year, the averages might be different in a few years' time.
I expect his percentage to dip before the end of the year, purely because the WTF is coming up and I don't expect him to be able to maintain that. Nadal's stats tend to take a hit more than anyone's as the year goes on. His return stats receive a huge boost from the clay stretch.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:58 AM   #58
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
You actually have it the other way around. Murray has been the superior first serve returner this year, while Djokovic has been the superior second serve returner. But again, points won on 2nd serve return are mostly about rallying ability. The true test of a returner is how they return the first serve. Either way, Murray is superior to Djokovic all time in every return stat except BP conversion. Case closed, really.
Return games won (career):

Nadal 33%
Murray 32%
Djokovic 31%

1st serve return won (career):

Murray 34%
Nadal 34%
Djokovic 33%

2nd serve return won (career):

Nadal 56%
Murray 55%
Djokovic 54%

Break points won (career)

Nadal 45%
Djokovic 44%
Murray 43%

Return games won (2011):

Djokovic 41%
Murray 37%
Nadal 35%

1st serve return won (2011):

Murray 37%
Djokovic 37%
Nadal 35%

2nd serve return won (2011):

Djokovic 58%
Nadal 57%
Murray 56%

Break points won (2011):

Djokovic 48%
Nadal 47%
Murray 47%

Stats says that out of this 3 best returner career wise is Nadal, then Murray, then Djokovic, in 2011 best returner is Djokovic.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:12 AM   #59
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

Nice to see HeretiC posting again

Interesting stuff
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:13 AM   #60
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Default Re: The Relative Importance of Hold and Return Games

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Originally Posted by HeretiC View Post
Return games won (career):

Nadal 33%
Murray 32%
Djokovic 31%

1st serve return won (career):

Murray 34%
Nadal 34%
Djokovic 33%

2nd serve return won (career):

Nadal 56%
Murray 55%
Djokovic 54%

Break points won (career)

Nadal 45%
Djokovic 44%
Murray 43%

Return games won (2011):

Djokovic 41%
Murray 37%
Nadal 35%

1st serve return won (2011):

Murray 37%
Djokovic 37%
Nadal 35%

2nd serve return won (2011):

Djokovic 58%
Nadal 57%
Murray 56%

Break points won (2011):

Djokovic 48%
Nadal 47%
Murray 47%

Stats says that out of this 3 best returner career wise is Nadal, then Murray, then Djokovic, in 2011 best returner is Djokovic.
Yes, but Nadal's stats are boosted because of his success on clay. Look at this stats again, except on hardcourts.

Nadal is not an exceptional returner. No real forward momentum. He often moves backwards to return, particularly on second serves.

The following are returning stats on hardcourts. I've excluded grass, since sample sizes are so small.

Return games won (career):

Murray - 33%
Djokovic - 30%
Nadal - 29%

First serve return points won (career):

Murray - 34%
Djokovic - 32%
Nadal - 32%

Second serve return points won (career)

Murray - 55%
Nadal - 54%
Djokovic - 54%

It's pointless using clay court stats, since they skew results in favour of clay courters. If we include clay, Volandri is statistically the 4th best returner of all time. The main stat I look at when assessing return ability is percentage of points won returning first serve. Every other stat is influenced to a great degree by the player's rallying ability.

Last edited by Clydey : 10-27-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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