ATP-ITF Calendar/Schedule Suggestions, Shorter Season - Page 57 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

View Poll Results: Which of these compulsory 1000 level events would you drop

05.03.2012 - Hard - BNP Paribas Open, Indian Wells, USA 10 7.09%
23.03.2011 - Hard - Sony Ericsson Open, Miami, USA 16 11.35%
01.05.2011 - Clay - Mutua Madrid Open, Madrid, Spain 14 9.93%
08.05.2011 - Clay - Internazionali BNL d'Italia, Rome, Italy 10 7.09%
08.08.2011 - Hard - Rogers Cup, Montreal, Canada 6 4.26%
14.08.2011 - Hard - Western & Southern Open, Cincinnati, USA 20 14.18%
09.10.2011 - Hard - Shanghai Rolex Masters, Shanghai, China 48 34.04%
07.11.2011 - Hard - BNP Paribas Masters - Paris, France 17 12.06%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

Old 09-19-2011, 06:43 PM   #841
country flag nobama
287 Baby!
 
nobama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jony Ive's design cave
Posts: 19,805
nobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond repute
Default Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

Didn't the players push for the current DC dates in the calendar? If so why are they bitching about the schedule now? Murray wants 2 fewer tournaments....OK I'd love for him to name which events should get axed or downgraded from a mandatory masters 1000 status. Look at the fiasco with Hamburg. It's a lot easier said than done.

I must say though, if two (or three) of the top 4 want to go on strike I won't miss them.

Britain's Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat
By Jonathan Overend
BBC tennis correspondent

Andy Murray says top players are "serious" about their call for changes to the tennis calendar - and that some form of strike cannot be ruled out.

Players are upset at overcrowding in the schedule and will meet in Shanghai next month to plot their next move.

Murray told BBC Sport: "It's a possibility. I know from speaking to some players they're not afraid of doing that [striking].

"Let's hope it doesn't come to that but I'm sure the players will consider it."

Asked whether the subject of a strike or boycott will be mentioned during the meeting in China, he continued: "Yes I think so.

"If we come up with a list of things we want changed - and everyone is in agreement but they don't happen - then we need to have some say in what goes on in our sport. At the moment we don't.

"We'll sit down, talk about it with the Association of Tennis Professionals (ATP) and International Tennis Federation (ITF), see if they will come to a compromise and, if not, we'll go from there.

"We just want things to change, really small things. Two or three weeks during the year, a few less tournaments each year, which I don't think is unreasonable."

Last year ATP chief executive Adam Helfant, who has since decided to leave the governing body, announced the Paris Masters and the World Tour Finals would be played back-to-back, so two weeks have been saved in the 2012 ATP calendar.

"To get another change implemented may take five or six years at the rate things are going and then all of us will be done [retired]. We want it to happen sooner rather than later."

At the US Open, Rafael Nadal reached the final after playing three singles matches in three days. He then had one day off before playing for four hours against Novak Djokovic.

Straight after that match he was on a plane to Spain and, four days later, playing a potential five-set match in the Davis Cup.

But ITF president Francesco Ricci Bitti said last week that complaints by Nadal over the Davis cup scheduling were "inconsistent", saying players voted for the current dates, against the ITF's wishes, back in 2009.

An ATP spokesperson highlighted recent tour changes such as increased prize money, byes for top eight players and best-of-three set finals.

And a statement from the organisation added: "The players should and do have a major say in how the game is run. We remain committed to working with the players and other governing bodies to continue to address their issues."
__________________




Thank you Nick for taking out the trash at Wimbledon!
nobama is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 09-19-2011, 06:49 PM   #842
country flag rocketassist
Banned!
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,682
rocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond reputerocketassist has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Player union call as injuries mount, scheduling issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
The entire DC format needs changing and if people would just quit trolling for a sec, it's not just Andy, Rafa and Novak. Federer hardly ever plays it.
I read somewhere that Roddick came up with the strike option during the US Open.

So many in here are so quick to laugh at players that they don't stop to read and think for themselves.

Does anybody in here really think that playing DC a week after a slam final is a good idea? Seriously?

Furthermore, the slowing down of courts argument is an overplayed argument on MTF. You'd better come up with new thoughts to be controversial.

-
When the current format was discussed together with changes in the ATP calendar, we had De Villiers from ATP on one side (remember him?) and Ricci Bitti from ITF on the other side. They moved tournaments about, changed the points system for tournaments, changed obligatory events (so that there are even more) and Bitti wanted ATP points for playing DC and he got it (even though it's an unfair system IMO). There was very little room for discussion if I remember it well.
If you didn't need to play a certain amount of matches over a certain amount of time in order to be entitled to play in the Olympics, even less top players would be bothered to play.
In YOUR opinion.

We had a similar calendar as recent as 2006 where Masters finals and TMC finals were 5 set affairs, arguably more gruelling than the current format.

Yet points were shorter and nobody suffered the level of physical issues the three I've mentioned (plus JMDP) have had in recent times.
rocketassist is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 06:49 PM   #843
country flag EliSter
Registered User
 
EliSter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: everywhere...
Age: 25
Posts: 5,837
EliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond reputeEliSter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

I hope...sheduling is awful
__________________
Quote:
To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.

BigJohn
EliSter is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 06:51 PM   #844
country flag v-money
Registered User
 
v-money's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,664
v-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond reputev-money has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

This will surely be merged.
__________________
Supporting the unusual strokes gang: Dolgopolov, Mayer, Mannarino, Tomic

Quote:
Originally Posted by petar_pan View Post
Just keep [t]rolling Bernard, just keep [t]rolling my man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatchFederer View Post
Keep [t]rolling Bernard, keep [t]rolling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanos View Post
tomic just keep on [t]rolling
v-money is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 06:57 PM   #845
country flag Castafiore
Registered User
 
Castafiore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,084
Castafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Player union call as injuries mount, scheduling issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
In YOUR opinion.
Obviously MY opinion. I'm not posting on behalf of the pope.

The surface of the DC ties is not something that's decided long ahead and depends on the hosting country (within rules). We've seen ultra slow courts in DC ties, ultra fast surfaces and everything in between.
The slowing down of the courts is not that relevant to DC ties. You can't just blame everything on "slowing down of courts". It's about a crowded schedule with nothing much left to manouver for the players.

And even if every player out there is an ace monster who keeps points short, having DC so quicly after a slam would still be crazy.


Quote:
We had a similar calendar as recent as 2006 where Masters finals and TMC finals were 5 set affairs, arguably more gruelling than the current format.
Players had many issues with the 2006 schedule. The Masters in a best of 5 sets format was great (I miss those matches) but even then, many argued that playing back to back tournaments in that format was crazy. (esp. with IW and Miami over one month followed by a stupidly cramped clay court season just about all in the 5 sets format with a DC tie in between, also in a 5 sets format). The key reason given to stop the 5 sets format in the Masters was to do something about fatigue building up. However, the stupid schedule with even more obligatory events was still stupid. Instead of really thinking about the schedule properly, they got rid of the best of 5 sets format in most tournaments. Nothing much has changed and nothing much will change.

Last edited by Castafiore : 09-19-2011 at 07:04 PM.
Castafiore is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:00 PM   #846
country flag rofe
Registered User
 
rofe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,783
rofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond reputerofe has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Player union call as injuries mount, scheduling issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketassist View Post
They can fuck off then. We'll watch a major event or GS without them.

Rafa, Novak, Andy, it's YOUR fault for the defensive physical brand of tennis you have opted to deploy, and the ATP for slowing the courts down to suit YOUR games, that you're fucking knackered at the end of every ****ing year.
QFT.

Let these divas go on strike. They also don't seem to be thinking about other tennis players that desperately need the cash just to make ends meet.
__________________
Need ideas for a new signature...
rofe is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:01 PM   #847
country flag Pirata.
the pirate queen.
 
Pirata.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Age: 26
Posts: 13,273
Pirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

Over crowding? Top guys are only required to play 18 tournaments (+WTF) which is generally two months of the slams, a month for IW and Miami (they should restrict IW and Miami to a week each) Monte Carlo isn't mandatory, a month with Madrid, Rome, Canada, Cincy, two weeks for Shanghai and Paris. They can logically play about 6 or 7 months a year, with plenty of time in between to rest. Most of the top guys don't play after Wimbledon up to Toronto/Montreal and only play Rotterdam or Dubai after AO.

The should add another week between RG and grass season so that part of the calendar isn't so crowded, but it's hard to sympathize with these top guys who make hundreds of thousands of dollars every year along with endorsements and appearance fees.

Even now, they have a week off, and considering a lot of them don't bother playing the 250 events and just go to Beijing or Tokyo, so other than Davis Cup commitments, they can spend the next two weeks relaxing. Maybe they want more time at the end of the season, which is a valid point, but I really don't see what the main issue is.

Who knows, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, but this seems like a lot of unnecessary whining from the top players. I'd rather hear what the lower ranked guys have to say since they're the ones who generally are playing every week trying to get ranking points and money.
__________________
Rafael Nadal & Novak Djokovic: The Evoulution of a Handshake
federer ferrer wawrinka raonic flopez istomin mannarino pospisil
verdasco

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuitYerWhining View Post
Ever trolled, ever failed, no matter.
Post again, troll again, troll harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Death View Post
mods drag this thread outside and have several spotted hyenas shit on it for 4 straight days. you may have to bribe the hyenas but they will shit on it.
Pirata. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:03 PM   #848
country flag Pirata.
the pirate queen.
 
Pirata.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Age: 26
Posts: 13,273
Pirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobama View Post
Murray wants 2 fewer tournaments....OK I'd love for him to name which events should get axed or downgraded from a mandatory masters 1000 status. Look at the fiasco with Hamburg. It's a lot easier said than done.
They don't even have to play Monte Carlo; if they just downgrade Indian Wells and Miami to a week each, well there you go Mr. Murray.

Quote:
An ATP spokesperson highlighted recent tour changes such as increased prize money, byes for top eight players and best-of-three set finals.
__________________
Rafael Nadal & Novak Djokovic: The Evoulution of a Handshake
federer ferrer wawrinka raonic flopez istomin mannarino pospisil
verdasco

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuitYerWhining View Post
Ever trolled, ever failed, no matter.
Post again, troll again, troll harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Death View Post
mods drag this thread outside and have several spotted hyenas shit on it for 4 straight days. you may have to bribe the hyenas but they will shit on it.
Pirata. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:09 PM   #849
country flag Pirata.
the pirate queen.
 
Pirata.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Age: 26
Posts: 13,273
Pirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Player union call as injuries mount, scheduling issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Does anybody in here really think that playing DC a week after a slam final is a good idea? Seriously?
Obviously the players did a couple years ago
__________________
Rafael Nadal & Novak Djokovic: The Evoulution of a Handshake
federer ferrer wawrinka raonic flopez istomin mannarino pospisil
verdasco

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuitYerWhining View Post
Ever trolled, ever failed, no matter.
Post again, troll again, troll harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Death View Post
mods drag this thread outside and have several spotted hyenas shit on it for 4 straight days. you may have to bribe the hyenas but they will shit on it.
Pirata. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:10 PM   #850
country flag Castafiore
Registered User
 
Castafiore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 19,084
Castafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond reputeCastafiore has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Player union call as injuries mount, scheduling issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirata. View Post
Obviously the players did a couple years ago
If I rememer it well, the players weren't given much choice to begin with and given the choice, DC behind slams is better since slams >>>> DC.

This being the better option compared with what was once, does not make it a great option.
Castafiore is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:10 PM   #851
country flag Looner
Registered User
 
Looner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 11,258
Looner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond reputeLooner has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

Don't let the door hit you on your way out and please take #2 with you.
Looner is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:13 PM   #852
country flag Pirata.
the pirate queen.
 
Pirata.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: usa
Age: 26
Posts: 13,273
Pirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond reputePirata. has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Player union call as injuries mount, scheduling issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
If I rememer it well, the players weren't given much choice to begin with and given the choice, DC behind slams is better since slams >>>> DC.

This being the better option compared with what was once, does not make it a great option.
But the players wanted it against the ITF's suggestion. They had a choice to have it a week later, but the players were the ones who argued for it to come after slams.
__________________
Rafael Nadal & Novak Djokovic: The Evoulution of a Handshake
federer ferrer wawrinka raonic flopez istomin mannarino pospisil
verdasco

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuitYerWhining View Post
Ever trolled, ever failed, no matter.
Post again, troll again, troll harder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Death View Post
mods drag this thread outside and have several spotted hyenas shit on it for 4 straight days. you may have to bribe the hyenas but they will shit on it.
Pirata. is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:16 PM   #853
country flag Horatio Caine
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 24,604
Horatio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond reputeHoratio Caine has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirata. View Post
Over crowding? Top guys are only required to play 18 tournaments (+WTF) which is generally two months of the slams, a month for IW and Miami (they should restrict IW and Miami to a week each) Monte Carlo isn't mandatory, a month with Madrid, Rome, Canada, Cincy, two weeks for Shanghai and Paris. They can logically play about 6 or 7 months a year, with plenty of time in between to rest. Most of the top guys don't play after Wimbledon up to Toronto/Montreal and only play Rotterdam or Dubai after AO.

The should add another week between RG and grass season so that part of the calendar isn't so crowded, but it's hard to sympathize with these top guys who make hundreds of thousands of dollars every year along with endorsements and appearance fees.

Even now, they have a week off, and considering a lot of them don't bother playing the 250 events and just go to Beijing or Tokyo, so other than Davis Cup commitments, they can spend the next two weeks relaxing. Maybe they want more time at the end of the season, which is a valid point, but I really don't see what the main issue is.

Who knows, maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, but this seems like a lot of unnecessary whining from the top players. I'd rather hear what the lower ranked guys have to say since they're the ones who generally are playing every week trying to get ranking points and money.
Exactly.

This topic has been discussed to death over the years, and I wonder if the key issue is still the Davis Cup, and how it is a struggle to accommodate it in the calendar. I'm not a fan of it being played straight after the Slam(s) either, but my understanding is that the majority of the players voted it as so. You cannot please everyone, and if it is eventually forced out it would be an enormous shame as the fans really support it. For some of the lower-ranked players, it is partly a reason why they continue to grind out on the tour.

As for the rest of the scheduling, it comes down to the usual:
- can something be done about IW and Miami occupying one month of the calendar? Even so, going deep in both events is hardly a major physical stress as there are plenty of days off between matches.
- Rome and Madrid really need to be separated by a week; the same for Canada and Cincinnati.
- there should be a week off between Paris and London - otherwise players who go deep in Paris are at a physical disadvantage. That was a ridiculous move by the ATP.

My suggestion would be to make the European indoors stint (the final four weeks of the season) entirely optional. Those that want to play out the full season can do as they wish. Those that don't (e.g. Nadal, Murray) could simply end their regular season in Shanghai. In effect, the Paris Masters becomes non-mandatory. Pioline would burst a blood vessel, but his event gets hit every year anyway.
Horatio Caine is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:20 PM   #854
country flag nobama
287 Baby!
 
nobama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jony Ive's design cave
Posts: 19,805
nobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Andy Murray 'serious' about tennis strike threat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirata. View Post
They don't even have to play Monte Carlo; if they just downgrade Indian Wells and Miami to a week each, well there you go Mr. Murray.
top guys anywaIsn't IW and Miami basically a week for the top 8 anyway?
__________________




Thank you Nick for taking out the trash at Wimbledon!
nobama is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2011, 07:22 PM   #855
country flag nobama
287 Baby!
 
nobama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jony Ive's design cave
Posts: 19,805
nobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Player union call as injuries mount, scheduling issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
If I rememer it well, the players weren't given much choice to begin with and given the choice, DC behind slams is better since slams >>>> DC.

This being the better option compared with what was once, does not make it a great option.
Change DC to be every 2 or 4 years.
__________________




Thank you Nick for taking out the trash at Wimbledon!
nobama is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios