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Old 09-11-2008, 07:16 AM   #61
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

for both federer and nadal "its all about the movement"...a little more so for nadal but still crucial for both.

in fact same is said for djokovic...i would say movement is possibly the most valuable commodity in today's game.

roddick would agree.

a serve isnt good enough anymore...this isnt the 90s
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:17 AM   #62
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Quote:
Originally Posted by prima donna View Post
Which is in essence what I had summarized in my analysis of his service game, so what part of my post did you find yourself at odds with ?
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but that's not the same as saying "it's all about the movement" although movement is important as it's for every bloody tennis player.

It's just that I think it's human nature to think in clichés.
Nadal: great athlete, good mover.

But, to add to that: the guy has a fantastic eye-hand coordination, anticipation skills and he can construct a point in a clever way (although it's easier for him on clay because that game is more natural for him) and that will help him when he loses a bit of speed. You can be a good mover but if you can't construct a point in a clever way, your movement will only do so much.

Note:
1. I don't think that hardcourts (and esp. indoors) are every going to be his playground.
2. I don't think that he will dominate the game for a long time either. Certainly not like Roger has done.
I wanted him to reach the number one spot and win Roland Garros and Wimbledon back-to-back and he's done both. So, I'm a happy fan.

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Old 09-11-2008, 07:20 AM   #63
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

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Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but that's not the same as saying "it's all about the movement" although movement is important as it's for every bloody tennis player.

It's just that I think it's human nature like to think in clichés.
Nadal: great athlete, good mover.
Look at the respective skills of the tennis player, hence Nadal the movement to him is more important than some others because those players have other specific weapons that work for them.

It's like the whole what would Roddick be without his serve, Nadal without his movement thing, which is a whole lot of nothing, because these are their respective strengths.
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:22 AM   #64
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

It's not a case of using clichés, Nadal's game is predicated on his movement. In any case, I'm not interested in debating with someone that's just contradicting me for the mere sake of doing so. You're just being condescending, had anyone else on this board pointed that out, it'd be seen as a valid point -- unfortunately, I'm notorious for not praising Nadal.

His game revolves around great movement, there's no need to complicate something so easily understood. Moreover, has there ever been a good athlete that wasn't an exceptional mover ? Isn't movement one of the inherent features of athleticism ?
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:24 AM   #65
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

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Originally Posted by prima donna View Post
Um, it's not a case of using clichés
Yes it is.

It's not a matter of contradiction because if you break down your viewpoint to the basics, it's true. Movement is key but it's key in tennis, it's key for every player (even more so today than in the 90s).
But you keep your viewpoints on Nadal too simple (although you have a way with words, I'll give you that) from my perspective. Fair enough but I disagree.

I'm not interested in discussing it with you further either so we agree on that.

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Old 09-11-2008, 07:36 AM   #66
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Since Nadal apparently possesses such deadly reflexes, could someone explain to me why this hasn't translated into a higher percentage of returns on quicker surfaces, particularly against players with big serves ? How about those great reflexes at net ? How about that brilliant shotmaking ability ? It seems to me that the very individuals accusing others of thinking in clichès are the ones more likely to be prone to such behavior.

This argument is the logical equivalent to suggesting that Roger's game is predicated on his muscular build coupled along with his incredible level of endurance, as opposed to his innate talent. There's no denying that Roger is a hell of a player, but those lungs of his sure are underestimated -- right. It's not those aces and forehands that win him matches; it's that intimidating physique of his.

Just call a spade a spade, since we're talking cliches.
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:44 AM   #67
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post
Yes it is.

It's not a matter of contradiction because if you break down your viewpoint to the basics, it's true. Movement is key but it's key in tennis, it's key for every player (even more so today than in the 90s).
But you keep your viewpoints on Nadal too simple (although you have a way with words, I'll give you that) from my perspective. Fair enough but I disagree.

I'm not interested in discussing it with you further either so we agree on that.
Right -- your only interest is that of being argumentative. I'm sure that you agree with most of what I said, it's merely your personal preference to take me out of context and create your own interpretation of what was initially stated.

No wonder it's becoming increasingly difficult to engage in a serious discussion on this forum when there are so many posters that are unwilling to see beyond an avatar or a signature. I mean, it's gotten to the point that even Nadal fans are forced to agree with me -- get the chip off your shoulder and be a good girl.

Nadal is the best player in the world primarily because of his movement. End of story.
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Old 09-11-2008, 07:47 AM   #68
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Quote:
Originally Posted by prima donna View Post
Since Nadal apparently possesses such deadly reflexes, could someone explain to me why this hasn't translated into a higher percentage of returns on quicker surfaces, particularly against players with big serves ? How about those great reflexes at net ? How about that brilliant shotmaking ability ? It seems to me that the very individuals accusing others of thinking in clichès are the ones more likely to be prone to such behavior.


He has good reflexes at the net (although he will never be a natural at the net either) and he is a good shot maker.

Nadal has amped up his serve (no, no, not like peak Safin, not like Roddick, not like Karlovic...he's not a big server) over the years but Rafa seems to have placed the focus on placement and variety (which is something he needs do continue to work on). Just read what other players have been saying about his serve lately. It's not an easy serve to read. A serve is not just about speed.


Quote:
Nadal is the best player in the world because of his movement. End of story.
Simplistic IMO. Not wrong because his good movement is crucial but you're cutting corners. Surely, you can see the difference in totally disagreeing with everything somebody writes on the one hand and disagreeing with certain parts of what that person says on the other hand.

Listen, we're never going to agree on this and since I don't want this argument to get ugly, let's finish it.

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Old 09-11-2008, 08:10 AM   #69
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

This is tennis, of course it's simplistic. We're not talking philosophy or politics, which are interconnected in their own respect. Ultimately, what this boils down to is a complex of some kind originating from the idea that Nadal lacks versatility, a belief which has been perpetuated by a select group of persons that choose to dwell on the weaknesses present in Nadal's game rather than his strengths.

It seems that no matter how much I extol Nadal for his numerous improvements that his fans are never satisfied, they are undoubtedly the most hypersensitive bunch on this board. He's currently the most effective player in terms of executing his game plan on a consistent basis. Isn't this sufficient ? Should we all pretend that he's averaging 20 aces per match and 30 winners ? It is what it is, speaking of clichés.

This isn't only limited to Nadal fans, but also fans of Murray. It's as if these people expect for the world to laud them as shot making geniuses, a few compliments simply won't do. Enough.

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Old 09-11-2008, 08:21 AM   #70
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore View Post


He has good reflexes at the net (although he will never be a natural at the net either) and he is a good shot maker.

Nadal has amped up his serve (no, no, not like peak Safin, not like Roddick, not like Karlovic...he's not a big server) over the years but Rafa seems to have placed the focus on placement and variety (which is something he needs do continue to work on). Just read what other players have been saying about his serve lately. It's not an easy serve to read. A serve is not just about speed.



Simplistic IMO. Not wrong because his good movement is crucial but you're cutting corners. Surely, you can see the difference in totally disagreeing with everything somebody writes on the one hand and disagreeing with certain parts of what that person says on the other hand.

Listen, we're never going to agree on this and since I don't want this argument to get ugly, let's finish it.
Nadull doesn't possess good reflexes at net and can't be classified as a good shot maker at all. His gameplan involves wearing down his opponents and making them uncomfortable with a barrage of barrage of moonballs to their weaker wing. The only time Nadull "shot makes" is when he is forced on the full defensive run.

The only reason Nadull's serve doesn't get found out as much is because hes a lefty. The slider on the ad court gives single hander's fits.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:24 AM   #71
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

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Originally Posted by prima donna View Post
This isn't only limited to Nadal fans, but also fans of Murray. It's as if these people expect for the world to laud them as shot making geniuses, a few compliments simply won't do.
Ah, the game of the sweeping statements about fanbases. That always works well here in GM but it's even more in use in the player forums. But, I like that game, PD.


[sweeping statement]Federer fans. It's as if all the compliments and for Federer isn't enough for them. A compliment given to another player is often perceived as a direct insult to their own master.

Somebody says that Murray is a good shotmaker without mentioning Federer? Haters (A respected journalist should nuance that by stating that Federer is a better one, right?)[/sweeping statement]
It's easy to come up with a silly sweeping statement about the fans of players but it doesn't add much to the discussion either way.

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Old 02-02-2009, 01:49 AM   #72
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Default Re: Nadal's serve doesn't cut the mustard

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I'm a big Rafa fan, I was hoping he'd win the title and until about 5 hours ago I thought he would, but seriously, his serve needs MAJOR improvement. He's a lefty, he should be good, but he's one of the worst left handed servers I've seen of recent years. He gets decent enough speed, but there's just nothing to it, especially the second serve.
I still think this is the only part of his game that isn't complete.

Sure it came up big on 2 or 3 occasions last night but on the whole it still needs a lot of work. Needs to get more free points from it.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:53 AM   #73
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Nadal will never have a top serve, but he doesn't need to do with that nuclear defense of his.
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:00 AM   #74
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Rafa doesn't use his serve to win points, he uses it to set up points, and anyone whose seen a match of his against Federer will know just how effective that is. Federer has a lot more trouble breaking him than vice versa.
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:48 AM   #75
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Default Re: Nadal's Serve

Yeh true but I feel it would extend his career if he were able to get more cheap points.
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