Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #21 of all time) - Page 74 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: How accurate was I?

5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 62 18.02%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 146 42.44%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 49 14.24%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.52%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 68 19.77%
Voters: 344. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-28-2012, 01:26 AM   #1096
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

Rocketassist, if Nadal wins one more slam would you rate him above Borg?
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Old 09-28-2012, 01:41 AM   #1097
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

Maybe.
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:09 AM   #1098
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

Johnny Groove is the most sane nadulltard
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Old 09-28-2012, 02:22 AM   #1099
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by J99 View Post
Something you should know about Murray is that he holds Rafa in very high regard, you should too if you support him properly.
So what if Murray holds him in high regard, being a fan of a player doesnt mean you have to share their every opinion.
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:35 AM   #1100
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

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Originally Posted by allpro View Post
it still boggles my mind that connors played gonzales (uso champ 1948), rosewall, emerson, laver AND sampras, agassi (ao champ 2003), courier, and bruguera, and virtually everyone else in-between. he went 6-6 vs. edberg despite all their encounters taking place when he was 32-39 y.o.



Between the ages of 33-39, Rosewall won 4 open era slams, beating Laver, Ashe, Newcombe, Roache, Stan Smith, among the other top players of that time. He also won 2 WCT finals, beating Laver in both finals. Ken reached the Wimbledon and USO final at age 39. The USO final was about 2 months short of his 40th birthday.
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Old 09-28-2012, 03:49 AM   #1101
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Groove View Post
I'll do you 46 better.

Top 101 of Open Era, rough list, slam results:

1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Borg
4. Nadal
5. Lendl
6. Connors
7. Agassi
8. Mac
9. Wilander
10. Edberg
11. Becker
12. Djokovic
13. Newcombe
14. Laver
15. Rosewall
16. Vilas
17. Courier
18. Ashe
19. Kodes
20. Guga
21. Nastase
22. Hewitt
23. Safin
24. Rafter
25. Kafelnikov
26. Smith
27. Bruguera
28. Kriek
29. Murray
30. Roddick
31. Chang
32. Ivanisevic
33. Gerulaitis
34. Stich
35. Ferrero
36. Cash
37. Tanner
38. Orantes
39. Gimeno
40. Moya
41. Korda
42. Krajicek
43. Muster
44. Panatta
45. Edmondson
46. Noah
47. Del Potro
48. T. Johansson
49. Gomez
50. Costa
51. Teacher
52. Gaudio
53. Roche
54. Martin
55. Pioline
56. Mecir
57. Corretja
58. Curren
59. Soderling
60. Denton
61. Okker
62. Nalbandian
63. Leconte
64. Tsonga
65. Solomon
66. Berdych
67. P. Dent
68. Metreveli
69. F. Gonzalez
70. Gottfried
71. Medvedev
72. Crealy
73. Coria
74. Proisy
75. Franulovic
76. Baghdatis
77. Norman
78. Pecci
79. Schuettler
80. Rios
81. Parun
82. Warwick
83. Sadri
84. Enqvist
85. Clement
86. Lloyd
87. Pilic
88. Pernfors
89. Rusedski
90. Washington
91. Berasategui
92. Marks
93. Mal Anderson
94. Verkerk
95. Puerta
96. Lewis
97. Henman
98. Davydenko
99. Ferrer
100. Grosjean
101. Tommy Haas

Let the disagreements begin.
I believe Newcombe won 7 slams in the Open Era, therefore, should be ranked higher if the main criteria is slam results.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:17 AM   #1102
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by J99 View Post
But I'll give you that Masters today are worth more now than they were, cause I don't think players were required to play them then as they do nowadays.
Yes masters series events (or super 9 events as they were called) weren't mandatory even in the 90s, with many players routinely skipping those events and not getting any zero pointers. A lot of those events got incredibly weak fields back then. They became more important from 2000 when they awarded more ranking points and prize money.

That's why I was laughing at some people making a big deal about Djokovic overtaking Sampras in the masters series title count when it isn't even close to being an apples to apples comparison. Plus Sampras and other players in the 90s really couldn't give a sh*t about how many super 9 events they won.

It wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years time the masters series concept is scrapped in favour of something else. From 1972-1989 the WCT finals was more of the most prestigious events of the year, with many players valuing it above some slams, and the 1972 final being the probably the most important televised match in tennis history. Yet that event was scrapped.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:20 AM   #1103
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by LeChuck View Post
Yes masters series events (or super 9 events as they were called) weren't mandatory even in the 90s, with many players routinely skipping those events and not getting any zero pointers. A lot of those events got incredibly weak fields back then. They became more important from 2000 when they awarded more ranking points and prize money.

That's why I was laughing at some people making a big deal about Djokovic overtaking Sampras in the masters series title count when it isn't even close to being an apples to apples comparison. Plus Sampras and other players in the 90s really couldn't give a sh*t about how many super 9 events they won.

It wouldn't surprise me if in 20 years time the masters series concept is scrapped in favour of something else. From 1972-1989 the WCT finals was more of the most prestigious events of the year, with many players valuing it above some slams, and the 1972 final being the probably the most important televised match in tennis history. Yet that event was scrapped.
Not really, it's the World Tour Finals now.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:35 AM   #1104
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

I agree that Borg still ranks above Nadal. He was more dominant as he was the undisputed best player in the world for 3 years in a row from 1978-1980. Plus he was more versatile as he was far better on hard courts than Nadal has been indoors (despite carpet being eliminated from the tour)

As I said before it's not just a case about adding up how many grand slam titles these players won, when the slam title count was meaningless when Borg/Connors/McEnroe etc were active.

I think that both Connors and McEnroe are above Agassi as well. Agassi's career grand slam was impressive, but both those other players were more dominant and the best player in the world for 3 years; Connors in 1974, 1976 and 1982, and McEnroe in 1981, 1983 and 1984. Agassi was only the best in the world in 1999,and benefited from Sampras who was playing his best tennis for 5-6 years being ruled out of that year's US Open. He had also benefited from a Sampras injury to win his 1994 US Open title as well.

Both players won more titles overall than Agassi. McEnroe had much better records than Agassi at Wimbledon, the US Open and the Masters/YEC, and his second best season 1981 was better than any year that Agassi had.

Connors also had a better record than Agassi at Wimbledon and the US Open, and had more day-in day-out consistency and longevity than him, plus his 1974 season was far better than any year that Agassi had, and his 1982 was probably better as well.

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Old 09-28-2012, 05:42 AM   #1105
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Not really, it's the World Tour Finals now.
No in the 70s and 80s there was the WCT Finals which was held in May, and the Masters which was held at the end of the season (actually into January of the next year).

The WCT finals was scrapped after 1989, while the Masters was renamed to the Tour World Championships in 1990, the Masters Cup in 2000 and finally the World Tour Finals in 2009.

They were two separate events but both incredibly important, certainly way more important than the Australian Open for a while. They were 2 of the 5 biggest events along with Wimbledon, the US Open and Roland Garros.

When the Australian Open was held in December, many of the top players skipped it to focus on and rest for the Masters which was a much bigger tournament and offered a lot more prize money.

I read that when Newcombe won the WCT finals in 1974, he broke down in tears and called it the proudest moment of his career (and he had already won Wimbledon, US Open titles etc by then), and Borg talked a lot about how hard he prepared for the event, and how amazing it was when he won it in 1976.

BTW I made a typo as the WCT finals was first held in 1971 and not 1972, but the 1972 final, the first to be held in May, is one of the most important matches in tennis history as it made the sport attractive for TV broadcasting.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:48 AM   #1106
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by LeChuck View Post
No in the 70s and 80s there was the WCT Finals which was held in May, and the Masters which was held at the end of the season (actually into January of the next year).

The WCT finals was scrapped after 1989, while the Masters was renamed to the Tour World Championships in 1990, the Masters Cup in 2000 and finally the World Tour Finals in 2009.

They were two separate events but both incredibly important, certainly way more important than the Australian Open for a while. They were 2 of the 5 biggest events along with Wimbledon, the US Open and Roland Garros.

When the Australian Open was held in December, many of the top players skipped it to focus on and rest for the Masters which was a much bigger tournament and offered a lot more prize money.

I read that when Newcombe won the WCT finals in 1974, he broke down in tears and called it the proudest moment of his career (and he had already won Wimbledon, US Open titles etc by then), and Borg talked a lot about how hard he prepared for the event, and how amazing it was when he won it in 1976.

BTW I made a typo as the WCT finals was first held in 1971 and not 1972, but the 1972 final, the first to be held in May, is one of the most important matches in tennis history as it made the sport attractive for TV broadcasting.
It doesn't matter what it's called, it's still basically the same.
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Old 09-28-2012, 05:58 AM   #1107
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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It doesn't matter what it's called, it's still basically the same.
No you are missing the point. The World Tour Finals is 'basically the same' as the Masters. It is the same tournament but has just been renamed a few times.

The WCT finals was completely separate event altogether to what was the Masters back then and the WTF right now.

The WCT finals was season ending event for the WCT circuit in May, while the Masters was the season ending event for the grand prix circuit in December/January. There were also many huge WCT tournaments leading up to those WCT finals that have since been scrapped as well.

There used to be two hugely important 'season ending' indoor events with the best players in the world, for different circuits and held at completely different times of the year.

Now there is just one, and the Masters/WTF is probably not viewed as important now as it used to be in the 70s and 80s either.
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:08 AM   #1108
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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It doesn't matter what it's called, it's still basically the same.
No, they were 2 different organisations. Just do a bit of research maybe about 1 minute of your time and you will be able to see the differences.
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:22 AM   #1109
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

I've read the whole thread.

Obviously Johnny Groove (and Piterpol) has made a great work, esp. for the research for players of the past.

However, the method has, quite naturally I must say, the major drawback of focusing on a few numbers, even though Johnny has made some usually proper adjustments to his early rankings based on "experts'" comments (although of course some lobbyists were more active than others like Thrust, the Rosewall activist )

The problem of this method based on a few numbers is that ... you have to fit these categories to be well rewarded.

Especially there's too much emphasis imo in slams, either open era or pro-slams. It doesn't reward well players who hardly played them, esp. between 1945 and the 60s : Kramer and Hoad especially are viewed in very high esteem by the Lavers and Rosewalls who are (fairly) among the very best of this ranking.

Gonzales is "saved" by his longevity at the other numeric criterium "years at number 1".

The too big emphasis in the number of slams has another consequence : indoor tennis is not well rewarded despite its huge importance in tennis although declining one, until the 90s. In the pro-period, indoor tennis is a little bit saved by the fact that it was very important in the "Pro World Tour series. After 1970, mainly one "indoor factor" is left : the World Tour Final. Maybe incorporating the WCT finals there would be a good idea.

But what's worse for indoor tennis is that nowadays people have it in very low esteem because some of the very best players don't give it any importance and even want to nearly erase it. Remember the Nadal's "indoor tennis is not tennis" categoric assumption which is absolutely contrary to the history of tennis.

Let's add the disappearing of carpet, which used to be a very important surface : Borg won half of his tournaments on carpet if I remember well.

Mainly, indoor tennis stays in the rankings through the "Masters Cup" (not enough rewarded in the 70s/80s) and the number of tournaments won ... once again that's a consequence of the "purely based on numbers" method.

I think people who make these rankings mainly based on slams should wonder about the rankings which Laver and Rosewall and Gonzales, Kramer ... made, and how highly Hoad and Kramer were. On another note, I was surprised how low McEnroe was in Johnny and others' rankings : I guess it's because he "only" won 7 slams, one short of Lendl's and Connors's and others, but it's no surprise to me that Laver puts him very high on his list.

Another note on the comparison of players from different eras : I've read many comments, esp. from youngsters, that in the past "players were too small, didn't move fast, didn't hit big" etc ... arguments which have been fairly countered by people like Johnny, Sophocles or Action Jackson : playing with the equipment from the past was very tough, tennis was less physical but more technical than now (and well I think the technical dimension is really something which takes tennis apart from other sports ...), finally the training-fitness methods were the ones of that period, players nowadays benefit from new methods you can't put it only in their favour.

But there's another argument to downplay players of the past, which I've hardly read, whereas imo it's the most important one : the democratisation and globalization of the sport ! No need to say much about the Renshaws, even Tildens ... they were in an era when tennis was not democratic at all.

But if you compare with modern tennis, globalization is another decisive factor. Anybody who looks the rankings until the 60s will be amazed how many of these players came only from the USA and Australia ! European players there were some but clearly less ones, less good ones (the huge weight of the Americans comparing to the Europeans was still visible in the 70s), and in the 60s, most of them stayed amateur.

Well, the USA is a special case : it's a country which has a population not much inferior to the one of the whole European continent. But look how many European players there are now comparing to that time ! And well, tennis' popularity may have decreased in the USA, but not that much (look at youngesters' categories) : the main factor is the improvement of European tennis !

South America is also very important in modern tennis, but right after World War II, the southAmerican continent was still very poor and I guess the few SouthAmerican players in the 60s mainly were from rich families or had been to the USA.

I'm surprised how little this factor is taken into account, whereas the argument "Laver, Rosewall were small and not strong" or "pro-slams had small draws" are, fairly, poor arguments imo.

Maybe, as this forum is anglo-saxon, many posters are from anglo-saxon countries and don't realize that it's awkward how many of these players of the past were Americans, Australians or Brits ... plus the short episode of the "French musketeers".
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Old 09-28-2012, 09:35 AM   #1110
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 players ever (Murray one slam away from making l

Another note : I don't like when too much focus is made on "this player didn't win that tournament" ... although it was clear from everything he did in that period that it was really a matter of bad luck that he didn't achieve that because he had everything to do it.

People should be flexible and "expert" enough to realize those things imo.

Two examples :

- the constant "Borg didn't win the US Open" argument : some people defended him already then I will not insist, but clearly this argument is too much used, esp. in the comparison with Nadal (on the other side, Borg is clearly disadvantaged by the little importance given to indoor tennis in these rankings)

- the much used assertion "Becker was a mug on clay because he didn't win a Masters 1000 on clay (contrary to Edberg and Sampras) and didn't reach the FO final (contrary to Edberg)" : I mean people who watched tennis in the end of the 80s and beginning of the 90s know that it was really a matter of bad luck and no Becker overall was a better claycourt player than Edberg and Sampras. He played 5 Masters 1000 finals on clay (Edberg 1) and 3 French Open semifinals (Edberg 1) !! He lost 8-6 in the final set the Monte-Carlo final 1995 to the clay beast which Tomas Muster was in that time ! Against Mancini in 1989 it was very tight, and Mancini was on fire that year before getting tired in Roland-Garros. In Roland-Garros some people here said that if he had defeated Edberg in 1989 (and it was very very tight), he probably would have defeated Chang in the final, who was a good match-up for him ! And then what ? a few points more and Becker would have been a clay king ? that's bullshit : Becker was the same winning or not those few points, I don't accept the manichean arguments "it's black or white, not grey".

- the same by the way about the argument "Connors didn't win anything on red clay" : he didn't play on it in his best years, and played 4 French Open semifinals later, never lost before quarterfinals between 1979 when he started playing it and 1987, only lost early in 1989 when he was 37 years old.
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