Johnny Groove's Top 69 Players Ever (Djokovic #21 of all time) - Page 30 - MensTennisForums.com

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View Poll Results: How accurate was I?

5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 63 18.10%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 146 41.95%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 50 14.37%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.46%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 70 20.11%
Voters: 348. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-03-2012, 10:08 PM   #436
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

Groove Dude, there is some misunderstanding about what constitutes a Pro Slam. In fact, there were no Pro Slams before open tennis.
Some tournaments had more prestige and money than others, such as the Forest Hills Pro (held in 1957, 1958, 1959 only), the Melbourne Pro at Kooyong stadium (held in 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1962) and Roland Garros Pro (held in 1956, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1968).
Wembley was the most important indoor tournament (billed as the World Pro Indoor Championships), but was less prestigious than Forest Hills or Kooyong, judging from the list of finalists (Anderson won in 1959). Wembley, with its densely-smoke-filled interior, no air-conditioning, was hard on the bigger players who needed lots of oxygen, and favoured smaller players such as Rosewall, Segura, Laver who dominated the finals.
The same was true for Stade Coubertin, in Paris, a smoky, dingy place, where the French Pro located in the 1960's.
The so-called US Pro was not officially recognized as a pro championship by the USPLTA between 1952 and 1962 when it was held in Cleveland, but this did not stop Jack March, the promoter from extravagent billing. It usually only attracted two or three of the top pros.
In short, there was no regularly held Pro Slam tournament in the old pro days before open tennis, and each tournament has to be evaluated independently on its own merits.
By any standard, Hoad won three major pro tournaments, the 1958 Melbourne Pro at Kooyong, the 1959 Forest Hills Pro (the unofficial world pro championship), and the 1960 Melbourne Pro at Kooyong. All of these tournaments had concurrent doubles titles, which Hoad also won with Trabert or Anderson as partners. (The so-called US Pro had, of course, no doubles event).
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:12 PM   #437
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

Ok, ok, I've moved Hoad up to #26, behind Becker, Wilander, and Edberg.

If I try to put Hoad up any higher than that, I may have to re-evaluate the entire list, at which point I may need to check myself into a mental hospital.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:39 PM   #438
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

Ok, children enough of this nonsense. Stick to the topic and actually form arguments.

saberq, you really aren't qualified at all to comment on this subject. If you aren't prepared to realise that players can only exist within their own particular generation and timeframe. Then yes the comparison is useless especially as you can't transport Laver into current era or Federer backwards.

How do you know what the conditions were previously? These are going to impact on the tennis played, it's happening now, it happened previously and will do so in the future.

Most of the posters in here have actually presented coherent arguments irrespective of viewpoints, that's what this thread is about.
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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:42 PM   #439
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

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All you do is whine and bitch and fucking complain.

There was a reason you were the #3 seed in the ACC this year.
you need to chill man........everyone has a right to their own opinion ...free country and all(or forum)
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:22 PM   #440
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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Yes, many of them were very fit, Pancho especially, but today's players are not only fit, but they are strong as well.
not particularly. gorgo was a heavy smoker and was fond of eating steaks before matches and drinking cokes during, as did many athletes of the day. and as a lothario (married and divorced six times), i'm sure he enjoyed a good drink too


1957



1950
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Old 01-03-2012, 11:44 PM   #441
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

To be fair to Pancho, take a look at those gems:





The relationship between adds, doctors and smoking changed a bit over the years!
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:46 AM   #442
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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1950
What a fucking pimp.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:41 PM   #443
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

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Ok, children enough of this nonsense. Stick to the topic and actually form arguments.

saberq, you really aren't qualified at all to comment on this subject. If you aren't prepared to realise that players can only exist within their own particular generation and timeframe. Then yes the comparison is useless especially as you can't transport Laver into current era or Federer backwards.

How do you know what the conditions were previously? These are going to impact on the tennis played, it's happening now, it happened previously and will do so in the future.

Most of the posters in here have actually presented coherent arguments irrespective of viewpoints, that's what this thread is about.
And what makes others more qualified than Saberg to comment on it ? All you have is some collection of videos and everybody is commenting upon seeing them. Nobody has an extra source of information like watching it from their eyes. Very few like thrust actually did.

Some are affirming that those Players cannot be compared. But my question is if they cant be compared why are they on the list? if they are on the list they are comparable. And if they are comparable then they can be judged upon. And if they can be judged upon they can be judged either negatively or positively. And if most of them are judging it positively then you should accomodate Saberg's or mine view. Thats my two cents
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:50 PM   #444
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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The game changes, evolves, and equipment gets better and better. It´s not Laver´s or ROsewall´s fault. They were superb athletes in their own era. How they would play against Nadal or Federer is a pointless, stupid comparison.
They were great in their own little world but that's it, their competition was nowhere near today's standards . Tennis back then was highly exclusive and restricted to a few countries and even few places within those countries , sort of like golf today. That's why there are many poor athletes in golf even obese people, because it's emphasis is on exclusivity not on competition.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:58 PM   #445
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

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And what makes others more qualified than Saberg to comment on it ? All you have is some collection of videos and everybody is commenting upon seeing them. Nobody has an extra source of information like watching it from their eyes. Very few like thrust actually did.

Some are affirming that those Players cannot be compared. But my question is if they cant be compared why are they on the list? if they are on the list they are comparable. And if they are comparable then they can be judged upon. And if they can be judged upon they can be judged either negatively or positively. And if most of them are judging it positively then you should accomodate Saberg's or mine view. Thats my two cents
The people who are best qualified to compare and rate great players are the other players who played against them. The majority of great players who played against Hoad (including Gonzales, Rosewall, Bucholz, Krichnan, Davidson, Ulrich, Stolle, Roche Newcombe, Emerson) rated him #1, as did Ellsworth Vines (rating Budge at #2), while Gonzales was picked #1 by Budge, Segura, and many who did not play Hoad. Trabert chose Laver as #1, not in terms of calibre of play, but for his importance to the game. Sedgman chose Kramer as #1, and Gonzales as #2, although he claimed that Hoad was unbeatable when playing well.
It is difficult to see how Hoad could be rated below Becker or Sampras, both of whom were relatively slow and awkward around the court compared to the cat-like speed of Hoad (or for that matter Gonzales and Laver). Also, Hoad's wrist strength allowed him to use a single grip position to hit every shot, which made for immediate transitions while on the run.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:13 PM   #446
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

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And what makes others more qualified than Saberg to comment on it ? All you have is some collection of videos and everybody is commenting upon seeing them. Nobody has an extra source of information like watching it from their eyes. Very few like thrust actually did.

Some are affirming that those Players cannot be compared. But my question is if they cant be compared why are they on the list? if they are on the list they are comparable. And if they are comparable then they can be judged upon. And if they can be judged upon they can be judged either negatively or positively. And if most of them are judging it positively then you should accomodate Saberg's or mine view. Thats my two cents
There are posters who saw tennis before 2005 and 2010, those ones you know who actually remember when racquets were wooden, strings were different. The conditions that were prevalent at the time besides their abilities impact on their results, just like now, when conditions have changed.

You really can't compare players and if you're going to do it, then it's very poor form judging on what you see now and applying it to previous generations based off youtube clips. That's why it's garbage because it's poorly thought out and has no clue about the subject.
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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:31 PM   #447
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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not particularly. gorgo was a heavy smoker and was fond of eating steaks before matches and drinking cokes during, as did many athletes of the day. and as a lothario (married and divorced six times), i'm sure he enjoyed a good drink too


1957



1950
But who didn't smoke and drink back then in pro sports? Pancho IMO was still one of the better athletes out there.
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:51 PM   #448
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time

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And what makes others more qualified than Saberg to comment on it ? All you have is some collection of videos and everybody is commenting upon seeing them. Nobody has an extra source of information like watching it from their eyes. Very few like thrust actually did.

Some are affirming that those Players cannot be compared. But my question is if they cant be compared why are they on the list? if they are on the list they are comparable. And if they are comparable then they can be judged upon. And if they can be judged upon they can be judged either negatively or positively. And if most of them are judging it positively then you should accomodate Saberg's or mine view. Thats my two cents
The list is a ranking of players achievements in the era in which they played. To speculate how a player from a distant era would do today is impossible. Wembly, French Pro and US Pro were considered THE
Majors of the Pro tour. There were other special tournaments, at varioust times, but they were not considered Majors by the Pro Tour organisers. I doubt that a taller player was at a physical disadvantage at Wembly. Pancho won it many times. Tennis did not begin in 1968 or 2000, believe it or not.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:02 PM   #449
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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In that case don't you think that like for like comparisons favour the old guys? Players like Rosewall are credited for their amazing longevity but how can you make any meaningful comparisons in that regard to guys like Federer when physicality was so much less of an issue? Indeed, how can you compare the slam successes of guys who had, in effect, more opportunities at the top to guys who could no longer compete from 30 onwards because of the nature of the game?
Yes, today's game is more physical but the older pro players played with heavier rackets that were much smaller than today. They also played many more tournaments and played doubles. In the end it all evens out as to the physical effort put into the game.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:09 PM   #450
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (Djokovic up to #31)

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But who didn't smoke and drink back then in pro sports?
segura, kramer, hoad, rosewall, and laver didn't.
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