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View Poll Results: How accurate was I?

5/5- Almost 100% spot on, Mr. Groove. I may switch a few around here or there, but good work 63 18.10%
4/5- More or less. I disagree with a few, but not bad at all 146 41.95%
3/5- Hmmmm, I dunno. Some look a bit dicey, mate 50 14.37%
2/5- Are you nuts? Why is X player in Y position? You are completely dissing Z player! 19 5.46%
1/5- Are you high and or drunk? WTF?!?!?! 70 20.11%
Voters: 348. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-06-2011, 11:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Needs pictures

Good work, though I don't agree with all the placements at least all the information is now right here for people to see. Anything informative and relevant like this is a great thing for MTF, the more threads like this the better. Maybe just add an abbreviated set of stats for the top 50, just GS and rankings.
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:51 AM   #17
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Needs pictures

Good work, though I don't agree with all the placements at least all the information is now right here for people to see. Anything informative and relevant like this is a great thing for MTF, the more threads like this the better. Maybe just add an abbreviated set of stats for the top 50, just GS and rankings.
Pictures in place

Top 55 in progress
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Old 07-07-2011, 12:51 AM   #18
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Always good to hear your insight.

Yes RG didn't open up until 1925, and the World Hard Court Championships, ironically held on clay court, did serve as a substitute French Open for a time.
Thank you.

You didn't mention it in your descriptions of Tilden or Wilding. But OK, we agree.

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What is this World Series of the Pro Tour?
You've got a thread here: http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=148211 and a wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_...e_the_open_era

I remember a debate between Rosewalltards and Gonzalestards on these boards. The pro-Gonzales argued that these long tours were the major events on the Pro Tour since the Major tournaments sometimes had very small draws (which is true, mainly for the US Pro). The blemish being that Gonzales would then usually have to face a rookie (except in 1954) and the gap between amateur and pro standards was so huge that these were easy wins for him (and as mentioned, he was himself destroyed by Kramer while being the rookie).

Rosewall also won some of these long tours: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ros...C_1957_to_1967 (in 1963, he destroyed Laver in these, Laver being a rookie)



Edit: By the way, Lendl's poor record in Davis Cup came from the fact that he was no longer allowed to play for Czechoslovakia after playing an exho in Apartheid South Africa.

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Old 07-07-2011, 01:23 AM   #19
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

a few huge problems with this list is that you have given some players SO MUCH credit (a huge majority of your top ranked) when they played at a time when tennis was not at all competitive like it has been the last half century...... unfair credit.

DJokovic behind Hewitt and Rafter is insulting and AGASSi, my god, I have never seen such an offensive rank for Agassi who is probably the best returner (1st or second serve) in the history of the game. you did a great job explaining things and it was a fun read but some of the choices and ranks just seem SO BIASED in regard to your own liking of the player. There is no inclination or substantial reason to put Agassi as low as you did or put Rafter/Hewitt over DJokovic.......... and too many what ifs based on your top older generation players... this comes off as more of a thread about glorifying players from less competitive eras and pointing out one obvious thing (Federer's brilliance) than fairly ranking the players based on skill, results, and competition
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:32 AM   #20
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
Thank you.

You didn't mention it in your descriptions of Tilden or Wilding. But OK, we agree.

You've got a thread here: http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=148211 and a wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_...e_the_open_era

I remember a debate between Rosewalltards and Gonzalestards on these boards. The pro-Gonzales argued that these long tours were the major events on the Pro Tour since the Major tournaments sometimes had very small draws (which is true, mainly for the US Pro). The blemish being that Gonzales would then usually have to face a rookie (except in 1954) and the gap between amateur and pro standards was so huge that these were easy wins for him (and as mentioned, he was himself destroyed by Kramer while being the rookie).

Rosewall also won some of these long tours: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ros...C_1957_to_1967 (in 1963, he destroyed Laver in these, Laver being a rookie)

Edit: By the way, Lendl's poor record in Davis Cup came from the fact that he was no longer allowed to play for Czechoslovakia after playing an exho in Apartheid South Africa.
Interesting reads. Yes, the long tours were what was popular during the earlier days of the pro tour, transporting a portable court from city to city and playing the matches at nights to the crowds. What a time it must have been to live in and watch.

Usually when the top amateur went pro, he received a beating for the first 1-2 years. You saw it happen to Gonzales at the hands of Kramer before Pancho dominated, you saw it with Rosewall against Gonzales before he reigned supreme and then with Laver against Rosewall for a year until Laver became king.

And Lendl's dispute with the Czech's over his nationality is well known, no?

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Originally Posted by Mountaindewslave View Post
a few huge problems with this list is that you have given some players SO MUCH credit (a huge majority of your top ranked) when they played at a time when tennis was not at all competitive like it has been the last half century...... unfair credit.
You mean Laver, Tilden, Rosewall, Gonzales, Budge? Those guys' resumes are too awesome for words.

Quote:
DJokovic behind Hewitt and Rafter is insulting and AGASSi, my god, I have never seen such an offensive rank for Agassi who is probably the best returner (1st or second serve) in the history of the game. you did a great job explaining things and it was a fun read but some of the choices and ranks just seem SO BIASED in regard to your own liking of the player. There is no inclination or substantial reason to put Agassi as low as you did or put Rafter/Hewitt over DJokovic.......... and too many what ifs based on your top older generation players... this comes off as more of a thread about glorifying players from less competitive eras and pointing out one obvious thing (Federer's brilliance) than fairly ranking the players based on skill, results, and competition
Djokovic is well ahead of Rafter, and the only reason he is ever so slightly behind Hewitt is because Djokovic JUST got to #1 in the world.

Agassi, well, he was always in the shadow of Sampras, so it is difficult to rank him. I am curious, mountaindewslave, what would your top 20 be?
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:38 AM   #21
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

I don't understand Federer being singled out as "Never won the calendar year grand slam". That would be a career blemish for everyone except one person.
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Old 07-07-2011, 01:47 AM   #22
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Good list, Agree with nearly all of it. Interesting read i must say.

Federer CYGS is not a blemish, regardless of whether he should of won it or not.

55 Villains would be an even better list Dopers/Fixers/Cheaters/Mugs/Chokers/Assholes etc... so much more scope for argument
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Its intresting, but you when you compare players that played 80 years ago to today, I don't really know how you do that. Its gets very subjective. The competition level was alot different.

The first thing that jumps out to me is Agassi should be higher. He won the career grand slam in 1990's on 4 distinct surfaces, 17 master series titles.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:33 AM   #24
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Nadal but above Lendl, no way. Good attempt at something that will always be evolving, but runs into the usual problems. Take them away it's worth the read.
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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:33 AM   #25
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I don't understand Federer being singled out as "Never won the calendar year grand slam". That would be a career blemish for everyone except one person.
The way I look at it, if that is the only blemish on his resume, his career was pretty damn good

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Good list, Agree with nearly all of it. Interesting read i must say.

Federer CYGS is not a blemish, regardless of whether he should of won it or not.

55 Villains would be an even better list Dopers/Fixers/Cheaters/Mugs/Chokers/Assholes etc... so much more scope for argument


Again, if that is his only blemish, the rest of his career was pretty good

As for the 55 villains, well, that is a list for someone else to make

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Originally Posted by guga2120 View Post
Its intresting, but you when you compare players that played 80 years ago to today, I don't really know how you do that. Its gets very subjective. The competition level was alot different.

The first thing that jumps out to me is Agassi should be higher. He won the career grand slam in 1990's on 4 distinct surfaces, 17 master series titles.
I tried to compare only achievements. Mostly slams, big titles and #1.

Hmmm, maybe I should reconsider Agassi's position.

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Nadal but above Lendl, no way. Good attempt at something that will always be evolving, but runs into the usual problems. Take them away it's worth the read.
Everyone's got their own opinions, of course. 10 slams including all 4 and 100+ weeks at #1 for Nadal puts him ahead of Lendl's 270 weeks at #1 and 8 slams but no Wimbledon.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:42 AM   #26
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Everyone's got their own opinions, of course. 10 slams including all 4 and 100+ weeks at #1 for Nadal puts him ahead of Lendl's 270 weeks at #1 and 8 slams but no Wimbledon.
Well seems like you are forgetting the very important factors that stopped Lendl winning Wimbledon, these are the same ones that helped Nadal.
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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Hmmm, I've moved Agassi up to 14, McEnroe to 15, Cochet to 16, and flip flopped Renshaw and Riggs.

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Well seems like you are forgetting the very important factors that stopped Lendl winning Wimbledon, these are the same ones that helped Nadal.
Pat Cash and Boris Becker?
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:49 AM   #28
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

I agree that Nadal shouldn't be above Lendl quite yet, didn't the man ALSO win 5 end of year championships? He has also won many more career titles thus far... I mean much more than Nadal currently for people to try to excuse it as an era/physicality/whatever thing.

Personally I have no doubt that Nadal will eclipse Lendl at some point, but I don't reckon it's already happened.

edit -

Also you say Lendl won 7 out of 12 masters finals, but I believe when the equivalent tournies were called something else previously he also won a load. If I recall, he has actually won around about 20 or more masters or master equivalent titles. This and all the end of year championships pushes him past Nadal currently, no?


Good thread btw.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

Professor Groove, you have Sampras at #6. Get ready for your thread to be pullulated with SetSampras's rants and SdG's explosion of ellipsis littered harangues.
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Old 07-07-2011, 02:52 AM   #30
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Default Re: Professor Johnny Groove's Top 55 tennis players of all time (a history lesson)

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Pat Cash and Boris Becker?
Don't be like Fox News and practice selective history.

Agassi doing the Career Slam is a greater achievement than Fed or Nadal doing it, if you know why this is the case, then there is some hope.

In a few years Nadal might pass Lendl, but not now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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