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Old 05-04-2013, 01:25 PM   #331
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Robb is so

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Old 05-05-2013, 09:23 PM   #332
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
Jamie Lannister never tries to see himself as a good guy, he is a warrior that will do things on impulse and can be quite ruthless at times. Definetly arrogant, nihilistic and utterly without fear of anyone. When he tells the true story to Brienne it is because he is losing conscience and basically with no control of what is slipping out of his mouth, in no way he wants to be seen as a good guy by others but think to himself that he couldnt care less what they think of him.

However he did save the entire city when he killed the mad king and the pyromancer and he sees this as his most heroic moment and everyone judges him for the most heroic thing he has done in his life.

To understand Jamie psychologically, you need to picture him growing up idealising knights and their moral codes as a young boy and at a very young age he became part of the king's guard and there he had all his ideals broken as he had to witness the king commit one atrocity after the other while he was bound to some stupid oath, he saw all these brave knights (his idols, Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne) also just watch as innocent people got slaughtered, burned and tortured by a madman. So he became cynical about codes of honor, he used sarcasm to belittle the horrors he had seen.

Deep inside him, burried deep in some forgotten place that boy who grew up with the ideals about heroic knights still lives on. Ofcourse he has done terrible things since then simply because he stopped caring, but there is still a struggle inside him between light and darkness unlike lets say Cerceri.
Judging by what he has done in the books he should have enjoyed all the atrocities carried out by the mad king. Why should the murder of innocents have bothered him when he wasn't bothered by his own taking of innocent lives ? Is it a matter of scale? Or is it because he would rather be the one ordering the murders himself? The killing of the mad king was probably motivated by some narcissistic desire to emerge the hero and perhaps even claim the throne for himself in some twisted fashion more so than his concern for innocent lives. Him and Cersei deserve each other. I have to say I'm starting to feel for him more than I did in the books where he is some faceless arrogant little creep.
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Old 05-05-2013, 09:48 PM   #333
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Your message is a perfect example of how adopting a point of view can manipulate the viewers/readers

Ned Stark did not just "choose a side" in a civil war, he was Robert's right hand man, one of the most important people in the war. He may have rather conveniently disassociated himself from the atrocities committed against the Targaryen children, etc, but isn't that a bit hypocritical? He was supporting Robert and what the Lannisters did, they did to secure Robert's throne. It's a bit easy to let other people do the distateful deeds and then despise them for it.

The truth is, we really don't know that much about Ned Stark. We see him as a good guy and an honorable man because we are told that this was his reputation, but what do we really know about him, apart from the fact that his highly praised sense of honour made him act stupidly and led him to death?
Actually, when you first see Ned, he is about to behead a boy of the Night's Watch for being a "deserter". As it happens, this guy only told the truth, he saw White Walkers and ran away, which was pretty much the only thing he could do... Ned Stark is shown as a noble lord who has to "do justice", but really, what kind of justice is that? I'm sure that with the proper kind of narration, you could be led to see this as a horribly unjust deed. It's really a matter of perspective, and that's what the books are all about.

As to Jaime throwing Bran out of the window, well... Is it really so difficult to see a good motivation behind this? If Bran speaks, Jaime is dead, his beloved Cersei is dead, and all three of their children are probably dead also. What was he supposed to do? (Well, maybe not fuck his sister in the first place, but once that was done...)

And regarding the famous "Kingslaying" episode... There is no need to be a Jaime apologist to see that Jaime's act was obviously the right thing to do. Aerys was mad by all accounts, and not just the nice old man who is a little dotty, he was a true madman who enjoyed burning people alive and so on. He was about to burn the entire population of King's Landing (there is not much reason to doubt Jaime's narrative regarding this, since it fits Aerys's character perfectly).
In this case I do not see how blaming Jaime for killing Aerys makes any sense at all. Actually, Ned Stark's hypocrisy in this case is probably the thing that tarnishes my vision of Ned the most.

In addition there are many other things which tend to show the good side of Jaime, if you pay attention. For instance, unlike his father and sister, he has always been kind to Tyrion. Tyrion is certainly a moral authority in the books, and Tyrion adores Jaime.
Jaime is also one of the few people who do not treat Brienne like dirt (it is already becoming visible in the series, even though they kind of started on the wrong foot... but then he was her prisoner and not kindly disposed towards her).


All in all, I'm not trying to demonstrate who is good and who isn't, I don't care, I love pretty much every character in this series. But I love them precisely because they are complex characters. And I really think the idea of changing points of view is one of the main characteristics of this series, and that it is Martin's purpose to make a point about how changing perspective on the same facts can lead to a completely different perception of things.
And your continued defense of evil acts is the perfect example why the world has been in a mess for so long. Just because Jaime has a point of view doesn't mean that he's not a wicked person. All the WWII dictators from Hitler to Stalin had their reasons for doing what they did. I'd imagine had you lived then you'd have cheered them on and anyone who'd called them out for the bad men their were would have been called a puppet of the West (America and Great Britain) 's propaganda machine

As to your trying to equate Ned carrying out a sentence as demanded by the laws of his country to Jaime's cowardly acts of murder well... Why do you not just come out and say you hate civilized society and would much prefer anarchy and the barbarism of old? Because you quite clearly must not see any difference between someone who goes around on a killing spree and those who administer punishment as dictated to by the laws of their societies. To you both are one in the same thing.

So what if Jaime's been kind to his brother? Do you think for example terrorists and all the psychopathic politicians the world over do not love their families. No one is saying Jaime is without an once of good to him. That is impossible. Even Cersei has good in her. She loves her children. There is something to be said about that, especially given the kind of father they all have. Still these little things are not enough. The fact that Bin Laden loved his wives is not good enough consolation to the thousands of innocent lives lost on 9/11 nor is it enough consolation to the hundreds of thousands of lives lost during the pointless wars in the middle east that Bush and Blair love their wives and kids.

Ned Stark has done nothing to elevate him to Jaime's dizzying heights of wickedness. Nothing
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:30 PM   #334
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Here's some badass Robb to escape from the walls of text

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Old 05-06-2013, 06:34 PM   #335
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Judging by what he has done in the books he should have enjoyed all the atrocities carried out by the mad king. Why should the murder of innocents have bothered him when he wasn't bothered by his own taking of innocent lives ? Is it a matter of scale? Or is it because he would rather be the one ordering the murders himself? The killing of the mad king was probably motivated by some narcissistic desire to emerge the hero and perhaps even claim the throne for himself in some twisted fashion more so than his concern for innocent lives. Him and Cersei deserve each other. I have to say I'm starting to feel for him more than I did in the books where he is some faceless arrogant little creep.
This is nonsensical, Jamie has taken his fair share of innocent life and so has any warrior who live in this world were you often have to eat or get eaten. If Bran tells anyone about Jamie's relationship with his sister, besides him beeing killed with his sister all the children would also be killed.

It is still an evil act, but why compare Jamie to a sadistic madman like the mad king?

Really, Jamie doesnt care to be a hero at the eyes of anyone at all or else he would walk around and tell everyone about his deeds in heroic light. This is a proud character who would not give in to explain himself to anyone. Neither does he care about power, of all POV characters with power Jamie is the one with least interest to gain or work his way to climb to power. He voluntered in the fckng Kings guard god dammit, he has no interest to even be lord of Casterly Rock which is his birthright. Seriously, you should read again because you have read the character wrong.

So wrong in 3 accounts:

1.Jamie doesnt care about power.
2.Jamie doesnt enjoy commiting atrocities, but he does love a good fight. There is a differense there. Jeoffrey and the Mad king clearly enjoy atrocities but run away from a good fight at every moment.
3.Jamie doesnt want to be seen as a hero.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:06 PM   #336
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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And your continued defense of evil acts is the perfect example why the world has been in a mess for so long. Just because Jaime has a point of view doesn't mean that he's not a wicked person. All the WWII dictators from Hitler to Stalin had their reasons for doing what they did. I'd imagine had you lived then you'd have cheered them on and anyone who'd called them out for the bad men their were would have been called a puppet of the West (America and Great Britain) 's propaganda machine

As to your trying to equate Ned carrying out a sentence as demanded by the laws of his country to Jaime's cowardly acts of murder well... Why do you not just come out and say you hate civilized society and would much prefer anarchy and the barbarism of old? Because you quite clearly must not see any difference between someone who goes around on a killing spree and those who administer punishment as dictated to by the laws of their societies. To you both are one in the same thing.

So what if Jaime's been kind to his brother? Do you think for example terrorists and all the psychopathic politicians the world over do not love their families. No one is saying Jaime is without an once of good to him. That is impossible. Even Cersei has good in her. She loves her children. There is something to be said about that, especially given the kind of father they all have. Still these little things are not enough. The fact that Bin Laden loved his wives is not good enough consolation to the thousands of innocent lives lost on 9/11 nor is it enough consolation to the hundreds of thousands of lives lost during the pointless wars in the middle east that Bush and Blair love their wives and kids.

Ned Stark has done nothing to elevate him to Jaime's dizzying heights of wickedness. Nothing
You, my friend, have a serious problem with the notion of fiction vs reality.

I'm going to tell you a secret: novel characters are not people. They do not exist. That's why it's OK to enjoy bad guys and complex characters in fiction.
And another secret: whether in real life or in fiction, walking around judging people as "good" or "bad" will not make you a better person.
And no, good and bad are not simple concepts, and doing things because a law tells you to do it does not necessarily make your actions more just.

You seem to also have a problem understanding what I'm saying. Am I saying Jaime is the perfect guy and everyone should worship him? No. Once again, I don't know what language I'm speaking, I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY JAIME IS THE GOOD GUY.
I am saying people are complex. And I am saying that in the world, the FICTIONAL world of Game of Thrones, failing to notice that Jaime is NOT supposed to be a villain is probably having poor reading skills.
Remember once again, that Jaime is not a real person, Jaime is entirely a creation of George Martin's mind, that's all he is.

Actually, you understand the world better than most people do. Most people do not realize that for instance, someone like Hitler HAD to have qualities as well as flaws. People do not like complexity, they like to put people in two categories: on one side, the good guys, and on the other side, "monsters". It's stupid, but it's reassuring.
That's not how things work, of course. If things were like that, life would be easier, but also more boring.

But seriously, I can't even believe I'm discussing this. If you don't believe me, ask George Martin what he meant to do with his morally complex characters. If you cannot read a book and understand that its purpose is to show you the importance of perspective, if you cannot see how the whole series is trying to show you that, then, too bad. I didn't think this concept was that difficult to grasp for so many people.
I like it when writers try to represent the world in its complexity, but apparently, many people enjoy it more when it's all black and white.

EDIT: Also, one last thing... It's never a good idea to answer people on a forum by making assumptions about what they are like in real life. Believe me or not, in real life, I am pretty close to being a Ned Stark-like character. Mocked by people for having too much moral sense, not blessed with the best type of cunning intelligence... Or maybe I would have been Sansa, actually, which makes me shudder with fear

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:09 PM   #337
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Amazing to think a work of fiction can spark such emotion.

Is it impressive or is it sad? I can't decide.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:14 PM   #338
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Anyway, to go back to reasonable discussion. I thought last night's episode was rather crap.

Transition episode if I ever saw one... Small bits of transition in every story, pretty much. We saw Sam and Gilly for about 5 minutes, then nothing. And they repeated that for most stories.

This being said, I enjoyed that scene between Olenna and Tywin. I'm almost sure it was completely made up, but it was still good.
The Tyrion/Cersei scene was good, and so was the Littlefinger/Varys scene (but when do these two ever fail to entertain? ^^)

I also enjoyed seeing a bit more of Roose Bolton. I still don't like the guy's appearance compared to book Bolton, but he was good in that scene.

Oh, and also, I found the Robb/Edmure scene rather hilarious! Robb lecturing his uncle about not letting his selfish yearning for a happy marriage get in the way of their great cause!
Robb, remind me, who was it that stupidly married some unknown girl and broke his alliance with the Freys?

Last thing: I was quite surprised to see them make so little of Theon's torturer's taste for flaying. I mean, they like to insist on that kind of stuff, I was expecting it to be far more gruesome. Not that I'm complaining, though.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:20 PM   #339
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
Anyway, to go back to reasonable discussion. I thought last night's episode was rather crap.

Transition episode if I ever saw one... Small bits of transition in every story, pretty much. We saw Sam and Gilly for about 5 minutes, then nothing. And they repeated that for most stories.

This being said, I enjoyed that scene between Olenna and Tywin. I'm almost sure it was completely made up, but it was still good.
The Tyrion/Cersei scene was good, and so was the Littlefinger/Varys scene (but when do these two ever fail to entertain? ^^)

I also enjoyed seeing a bit more of Roose Bolton. I still don't like the guy's appearance compared to book Bolton, but he was good in that scene.

Oh, and also, I found the Robb/Edmure scene rather hilarious! Robb lecturing his uncle about not letting his selfish yearning for a happy marriage get in the way of their great cause!
Robb, remind me, who was it that stupidly married some unknown girl and broke his alliance with the Freys?

Last thing: I was quite surprised to see them make so little of Theon's torturer's taste for flaying. I mean, they like to insist on that kind of stuff, I was expecting it to be far more gruesome. Not that I'm complaining, though.
This is the last moment for the audiance to take a last breath before chaos reigns, that scene with Ygritte and Jon on top could be seen as cheesy but it is really as happy and a romantic moment that we will ever get in GOT. For the first time I could buy their story arc.

Next episode will be amazing for sure, George RR MArtin wrote it and it will involve some of my favorite moments in the book.

Also, in the preview it looks like Theon will get....oh my, I hope it is not what I think it is. Be careful for what you ask for.
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:03 PM   #340
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
You, my friend, have a serious problem with the notion of fiction vs reality.

I'm going to tell you a secret: novel characters are not people. They do not exist. That's why it's OK to enjoy bad guys and complex characters in fiction.
And another secret: whether in real life or in fiction, walking around judging people as "good" or "bad" will not make you a better person.
And no, good and bad are not simple concepts, and doing things because a law tells you to do it does not necessarily make your actions more just.

You seem to also have a problem understanding what I'm saying. Am I saying Jaime is the perfect guy and everyone should worship him? No. Once again, I don't know what language I'm speaking, I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY JAIME IS THE GOOD GUY.
I am saying people are complex. And I am saying that in the world, the FICTIONAL world of Game of Thrones, failing to notice that Jaime is NOT supposed to be a villain is probably having poor reading skills.
Remember once again, that Jaime is not a real person, Jaime is entirely a creation of George Martin's mind, that's all he is.

Actually, you understand the world better than most people do. Most people do not realize that for instance, someone like Hitler HAD to have qualities as well as flaws. People do not like complexity, they like to put people in two categories: on one side, the good guys, and on the other side, "monsters". It's stupid, but it's reassuring.
That's not how things work, of course. If things were like that, life would be easier, but also more boring.

But seriously, I can't even believe I'm discussing this. If you don't believe me, ask George Martin what he meant to do with his morally complex characters. If you cannot read a book and understand that its purpose is to show you the importance of perspective, if you cannot see how the whole series is trying to show you that, then, too bad. I didn't think this concept was that difficult to grasp for so many people.
I like it when writers try to represent the world in its complexity, but apparently, many people enjoy it more when it's all black and white.

EDIT: Also, one last thing... It's never a good idea to answer people on a forum by making assumptions about what they are like in real life. Believe me or not, in real life, I am pretty close to being a Ned Stark-like character. Mocked by people for having too much moral sense, not blessed with the best type of cunning intelligence... Or maybe I would have been Sansa, actually, which makes me shudder with fear
Pointless ramblings not worthy of further debate
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:40 PM   #341
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

I don't like them wasting time with Theon's... disabling and Jon's love story AND freaking Melisandre. Complete filler. I just hope they manage to pull off the essential parts of the book otherwise it'll be a waste of a season.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:56 PM   #342
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I don't like them wasting time with Theon's... disabling and Jon's love story AND freaking Melisandre. Complete filler. I just hope they manage to pull off the essential parts of the book otherwise it'll be a waste of a season.
They have divided book 3 into 2 parts, so early season 3 is really buildup for both end of season 3 and season 4. Which will all be a wild ride. They are also filling in some characters that should have been introduced in season 2.

Jon's love story is not filler, it is a major part of his character development.

Melissandre is not filler, she has a major role in this story.

Theon's story is really about presenting his captor, that is not filler. If you read the books you should know why.

Filler is: Littlefinger beeing overexposed, there will be plenty of time in the future for him. Though I did like his speech.

Shae scenes. Yeah, it leads somewhere but the route the show has taken makes me wonder where that is.....also, the actress is horrible unlike lets say Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen.

Bran having quite meaningless dreams, they havent dealt with his story arc very good so far. Go on with his warg powers now rather than later. Please.

Podrick the sexgod. Ok, rather funny. But seriously?
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:44 AM   #343
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
You, my friend, have a serious problem with the notion of fiction vs reality.

I'm going to tell you a secret: novel characters are not people. They do not exist. That's why it's OK to enjoy bad guys and complex characters in fiction.
And another secret: whether in real life or in fiction, walking around judging people as "good" or "bad" will not make you a better person.
And no, good and bad are not simple concepts, and doing things because a law tells you to do it does not necessarily make your actions more just.

You seem to also have a problem understanding what I'm saying. Am I saying Jaime is the perfect guy and everyone should worship him? No. Once again, I don't know what language I'm speaking, I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY JAIME IS THE GOOD GUY.
I am saying people are complex. And I am saying that in the world, the FICTIONAL world of Game of Thrones, failing to notice that Jaime is NOT supposed to be a villain is probably having poor reading skills.
Remember once again, that Jaime is not a real person, Jaime is entirely a creation of George Martin's mind, that's all he is.

Actually, you understand the world better than most people do. Most people do not realize that for instance, someone like Hitler HAD to have qualities as well as flaws. People do not like complexity, they like to put people in two categories: on one side, the good guys, and on the other side, "monsters". It's stupid, but it's reassuring.
That's not how things work, of course. If things were like that, life would be easier, but also more boring.

But seriously, I can't even believe I'm discussing this. If you don't believe me, ask George Martin what he meant to do with his morally complex characters. If you cannot read a book and understand that its purpose is to show you the importance of perspective, if you cannot see how the whole series is trying to show you that, then, too bad. I didn't think this concept was that difficult to grasp for so many people.
I like it when writers try to represent the world in its complexity, but apparently, many people enjoy it more when it's all black and white.

EDIT: Also, one last thing... It's never a good idea to answer people on a forum by making assumptions about what they are like in real life. Believe me or not, in real life, I am pretty close to being a Ned Stark-like character. Mocked by people for having too much moral sense, not blessed with the best type of cunning intelligence... Or maybe I would have been Sansa, actually, which makes me shudder with fear
Sansa will rise in the next books, at least I expect her to
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:28 PM   #344
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Going to watch episode 6 now.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:41 PM   #345
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
Anyway, to go back to reasonable discussion. I thought last night's episode was rather crap.

Transition episode if I ever saw one... Small bits of transition in every story, pretty much. We saw Sam and Gilly for about 5 minutes, then nothing. And they repeated that for most stories.

This being said, I enjoyed that scene between Olenna and Tywin. I'm almost sure it was completely made up, but it was still good.
The Tyrion/Cersei scene was good, and so was the Littlefinger/Varys scene (but when do these two ever fail to entertain? ^^)

I also enjoyed seeing a bit more of Roose Bolton. I still don't like the guy's appearance compared to book Bolton, but he was good in that scene.

Oh, and also, I found the Robb/Edmure scene rather hilarious! Robb lecturing his uncle about not letting his selfish yearning for a happy marriage get in the way of their great cause!
Robb, remind me, who was it that stupidly married some unknown girl and broke his alliance with the Freys?

Last thing: I was quite surprised to see them make so little of Theon's torturer's taste for flaying. I mean, they like to insist on that kind of stuff, I was expecting it to be far more gruesome. Not that I'm complaining, though.
Film Bolton is too robust, imo, and to overtly aggressive and not as evil. I liked the evil book Bolton better.

The Thorn Queen and Tywin's scene was made up for the film.

The most shocking thing to me was the red woman coming to get Gendry and taking him away. What? Major plot there. Aren't they having the child bastard anymore?

At the pace they are going, I don't see how they will get any further than the wedding at the Twins. A lot is going to be crammed into a very few episodes if they finish out the book.

Last edited by star : 05-08-2013 at 09:43 PM.
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