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Old 05-01-2013, 04:40 PM   #316
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by superslam77 View Post
thing is i cannot get over ned losing his head and agreed though i could never identify with any of those characters and i simply can't stand most of them except maybe varys.
And the girl. Arya.

I also like Tyrion. He's nuanced.

Varys is a bit less likable in the book, I think, but he's not despicable or discouragingly mopey as are the Stark boys.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:47 PM   #317
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Joffrey is just a little brat, he is far from the main antagonist of the story (he is only the 5th most important Lannister of the story), Tywin is at the moment the main antagonist of the story. Lannisters may be the most entertaining and dysfunctional family that has ever been in any show, there can never be too much Lannister on screen.

This show is not about waiting to see the evil guy get his butt hurt, thought you would understand this after Ned lost his head. Also, luck got nothing to do with how Lannisters survived, Tywin is the biggest badass in the 7 kingdoms and luck got nothing to do with why he always defeats his enemies.

The best shows have you guessing, instant gratification of having the bad guy lose before or later is just....predictable and boring as you see too many of these kind of stories. If you are only interested in Jeoffrey in this story I think it is not a story for you, Jeoffrey is not among the top 10 best characters in any way and neither among the top 10 important characters in the story.

Right now the most important players are: Tywin, Tyrion, Stannis, Oleanna, Margeary, Robb, Daenarys, Littlefinger, Varys and the Greyjoys.

Jeoffrey is just a pawn that is difficult for the players to control.
Part of the strategy of the books is to distract the reader from the main theme and primary actors just as in real life we are distracted by side events not being able to tell which are the main events and which are not.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:25 PM   #318
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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And the girl. Arya.

I also like Tyrion. He's nuanced.

Varys is a bit less likable in the book, I think, but he's not despicable or discouragingly mopey as are the Stark boys.
team stark till the end though
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:23 PM   #319
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Is that the best you can do in trying to besmirch Ned Stark's name? Sorry that just does not cut it If you had suggested that Ned Stark had personally murdered young children or gave such an order then you might have a point. Guilt by association is overrated We do not know what might or might not have happened. All we know is that Jaime stabbed his king in the back and now he's trying to convince himself of the rightness of his actions. I'm sure he's also got another perfectly good and honourable reason for trying to kill Bran and killing his old squire/ cousin to conjure some kind of an escape. If you think there is some kind of moral equivalency between Jaime's murderous acts and Ned choosing a side in a civil war then
Your message is a perfect example of how adopting a point of view can manipulate the viewers/readers

Ned Stark did not just "choose a side" in a civil war, he was Robert's right hand man, one of the most important people in the war. He may have rather conveniently disassociated himself from the atrocities committed against the Targaryen children, etc, but isn't that a bit hypocritical? He was supporting Robert and what the Lannisters did, they did to secure Robert's throne. It's a bit easy to let other people do the distateful deeds and then despise them for it.

The truth is, we really don't know that much about Ned Stark. We see him as a good guy and an honorable man because we are told that this was his reputation, but what do we really know about him, apart from the fact that his highly praised sense of honour made him act stupidly and led him to death?
Actually, when you first see Ned, he is about to behead a boy of the Night's Watch for being a "deserter". As it happens, this guy only told the truth, he saw White Walkers and ran away, which was pretty much the only thing he could do... Ned Stark is shown as a noble lord who has to "do justice", but really, what kind of justice is that? I'm sure that with the proper kind of narration, you could be led to see this as a horribly unjust deed. It's really a matter of perspective, and that's what the books are all about.

As to Jaime throwing Bran out of the window, well... Is it really so difficult to see a good motivation behind this? If Bran speaks, Jaime is dead, his beloved Cersei is dead, and all three of their children are probably dead also. What was he supposed to do? (Well, maybe not fuck his sister in the first place, but once that was done...)

And regarding the famous "Kingslaying" episode... There is no need to be a Jaime apologist to see that Jaime's act was obviously the right thing to do. Aerys was mad by all accounts, and not just the nice old man who is a little dotty, he was a true madman who enjoyed burning people alive and so on. He was about to burn the entire population of King's Landing (there is not much reason to doubt Jaime's narrative regarding this, since it fits Aerys's character perfectly).
In this case I do not see how blaming Jaime for killing Aerys makes any sense at all. Actually, Ned Stark's hypocrisy in this case is probably the thing that tarnishes my vision of Ned the most.

In addition there are many other things which tend to show the good side of Jaime, if you pay attention. For instance, unlike his father and sister, he has always been kind to Tyrion. Tyrion is certainly a moral authority in the books, and Tyrion adores Jaime.
Jaime is also one of the few people who do not treat Brienne like dirt (it is already becoming visible in the series, even though they kind of started on the wrong foot... but then he was her prisoner and not kindly disposed towards her).


All in all, I'm not trying to demonstrate who is good and who isn't, I don't care, I love pretty much every character in this series. But I love them precisely because they are complex characters. And I really think the idea of changing points of view is one of the main characteristics of this series, and that it is Martin's purpose to make a point about how changing perspective on the same facts can lead to a completely different perception of things.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:39 PM   #320
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

It would probably be very difficult to list all the characters I like since I like most of them...

The characters I'm disappointed in in the TV show are :
- Loras (for reasons explained above),
- Roose Bolton: Not only did they diminish his importance by replacing him with Tywin (when Arya was a servant at Harrenhall), but I also think that the actor is physically very unimpressive compared to the description made in the book. Bolton is supposed to strike fear in people's hearts, and much is said about his cold, pale eyes. I just don't see that in the show.
- Theon Greyjoy : I think the treatment epitomizes the idea that giving a character more screentime to "flesh him out" does not necessarily make him more interesting... I just don't see the point of what they're trying to do with him.
- Jon Snow : I can't say the actor is not right for the role, but I just don't find him that interesting. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Jon does not do much while he's with the wildlings, apart from f***** Ygritte, basically.

Otherwise, there really aren't many characters that I dislike. Most of the casting decisions were spot on, sometimes I disagree with the way they are overdoing the characterization of certain characters (Catelyn's monologue about not loving Jon Snow, ahem) but otherwise, all the characters are interesting in some way or another.
Daenerys, Jorah, Stannis, Davos, Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger, Olenna Tyrell, Varys, Margaery, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Arya, Robb, Sansa, the Blackfish, the Hound, the Brotherhood without Banners, Ygritte, Mance... I can't even list them all, they are all pretty awesome.

There is one character that for some reason I have always liked very much: Bronn. I don't know why, I have always liked him. One of the most epic introduction of any characters in the books.
And one character that I tend to dislike is Shae. From the very beginning, I just could not stand her. In my opinion Tyrion's infatuation with Shae kind of shows the limits of his intelligence.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:00 PM   #321
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
It would probably be very difficult to list all the characters I like since I like most of them...

The characters I'm disappointed in in the TV show are :
- Loras (for reasons explained above),
- Roose Bolton: Not only did they diminish his importance by replacing him with Tywin (when Arya was a servant at Harrenhall), but I also think that the actor is physically very unimpressive compared to the description made in the book. Bolton is supposed to strike fear in people's hearts, and much is said about his cold, pale eyes. I just don't see that in the show.
- Theon Greyjoy : I think the treatment epitomizes the idea that giving a character more screentime to "flesh him out" does not necessarily make him more interesting... I just don't see the point of what they're trying to do with him.
- Jon Snow : I can't say the actor is not right for the role, but I just don't find him that interesting. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Jon does not do much while he's with the wildlings, apart from f***** Ygritte, basically.

Otherwise, there really aren't many characters that I dislike. Most of the casting decisions were spot on, sometimes I disagree with the way they are overdoing the characterization of certain characters (Catelyn's monologue about not loving Jon Snow, ahem) but otherwise, all the characters are interesting in some way or another.
Daenerys, Jorah, Stannis, Davos, Tyrion, Tywin, Littlefinger, Olenna Tyrell, Varys, Margaery, Cersei, Jaime, Brienne, Arya, Robb, Sansa, the Blackfish, the Hound, the Brotherhood without Banners, Ygritte, Mance... I can't even list them all, they are all pretty awesome.

There is one character that for some reason I have always liked very much: Bronn. I don't know why, I have always liked him. One of the most epic introduction of any characters in the books.
And one character that I tend to dislike is Shae. From the very beginning, I just could not stand her. In my opinion Tyrion's infatuation with Shae kind of shows the limits of his intelligence.
Roose Bolton still has time to be fleshed out on the screen, I think next episode will be interesting in this regard. Remember that Roose is a very discrete character that wants his more exotic character traits to not be told by other people. In the book we get to see them because Arya is just a cupbearer whose presence he pretty much ignores.

Anyway, I very much disagree your dislike of Theon's character. While I dont like them showing him walking in circles this season, Alfie Allen is doing an amazing job with this character.

The ones I am disappointed at are:

Littlefinger-In the books he doesnt walk around with the villainous look and the creepy voice that screams "dont thrust me" out loud to everyone, everyone just sees him as a finance guy who is pretty much in the background, his scheming comes to a shock to the reader when they are revealed.

Jon Snow-pretty much what you said. Just because the actor "is Jon Snow" doesnt mean he can portray the inner turmoilt of the character, beeing an avarage actor at best he fails to do justice to the difficult situation he finds himself in.

Shae-The only character that has been radically changed from the book. I cant stand her, it is the actress fault who really just fails at acting her role. In the book she was not this upstand, proud and feisty character so it makes me wonder how this will go down in future important events that you must know about. Tyrion's passion for Shae in the book certanly shows a limitation to his personality, basically falling in love with a pretty little thing who is faking a show to him. In the series it is something else that just doesnt work, she is supposed to be proud and honest but something doesnt add up.


In a show with such a large cast always some wont live up to expectations, for every character that fails to live up I think there are 2 who outshine the bookmaterial. You have:

Show Varys who is much more interesting than the book Varys.

Show Tywin that has an even greater presence than book Tywin. Charles Dance is just incredible.

Show JEoffrey is just 10 times more hatable than book Jeoffrey.

Show Robb I think is more kingly and charismatic than book Robb (mostly because of age differense)

Show Jorah is more galant and charismatic than book Jorah who was much less noble so to speak.

Show Pycelle has been added some dimensions.

Show Margeary is just on a whole different level than her book counterpart, ofcourse we never see her point of view like we do in the show.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:08 PM   #322
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

can't believe you defend jaime that much

tyrion's infatuation hmm yeah, should have avoided infatuation with a prostitute but hey male hormones...it has a mind of its own.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:22 AM   #323
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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can't believe you defend jaime that much

tyrion's infatuation hmm yeah, should have avoided infatuation with a prostitute but hey male hormones...it has a mind of its own.
I kind of get mixed up between the books and the show, but I don't think the show has revealed the whole story about Tyrion's prostitute fixation.

Also Shae! I just don't get how she's being portrayed in the show. wth? How is that going to work with the later scenes?

Also Rob Stark's wife. Just a completely different person than in the book.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:18 AM   #324
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Anyway, I very much disagree your dislike of Theon's character. While I dont like them showing him walking in circles this season, Alfie Allen is doing an amazing job with this character.
Well, I hate how whiny he makes Theon look. Theon is a proud, cocky guy, not a whiny brat. At least until he gets into real trouble. To me Alfie Allen's depiction of Theon just makes him look really weak and ridiculous.
Plus as you said, we see way too much of him doing nothing worthy of so much screen time.

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Littlefinger-In the books he doesnt walk around with the villainous look and the creepy voice that screams "dont thrust me" out loud to everyone, everyone just sees him as a finance guy who is pretty much in the background, his scheming comes to a shock to the reader when they are revealed.
I did not have the same impression at all while reading the book... In my opinion, people in the book are very much aware that Littlefinger is a dangerous, politically astute guy. For one, his reputation as a "magician" with money is mysterious enough to make him an intriguing person.
Sure, the actor may be overdoing it in the show, but pretty much everything is overacted or over-explicit in the show compared to the books.

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Shae-The only character that has been radically changed from the book. I cant stand her, it is the actress fault who really just fails at acting her role. In the book she was not this upstand, proud and feisty character so it makes me wonder how this will go down in future important events that you must know about. Tyrion's passion for Shae in the book certanly shows a limitation to his personality, basically falling in love with a pretty little thing who is faking a show to him. In the series it is something else that just doesnt work, she is supposed to be proud and honest but something doesnt add up.
I had the exact same impression from the book Shae... I hated her just as much. She struck me as a superficial idiot. The actress is annoying, that's true, so maybe it's even worse, but I don't feel that she has been changed that much.

For me the character that was changed the most was Renly. They might just have changed his name as well because there was very little left of the Renly from the books in this character.

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In a show with such a large cast always some wont live up to expectations, for every character that fails to live up I think there are 2 who outshine the bookmaterial. You have:

Show Varys who is much more interesting than the book Varys.

Show Tywin that has an even greater presence than book Tywin. Charles Dance is just incredible.

Show JEoffrey is just 10 times more hatable than book Jeoffrey.

Show Robb I think is more kingly and charismatic than book Robb (mostly because of age differense)

Show Jorah is more galant and charismatic than book Jorah who was much less noble so to speak.

Show Pycelle has been added some dimensions.

Show Margeary is just on a whole different level than her book counterpart, ofcourse we never see her point of view like we do in the show.
Maybe you are just more sensitive to the show that to the books, because, for me, apart from Tywin (I'll grant you this one, book Tywin is a bit boring but show Tywin really steals the show ^^) I thought they were all pretty awesome in the book as well, and I see no added dimensions in the show, apart from of course the fact that you see actual people moving and talking... I think they are very faithfully depicted but it was the same in the books.
Of course, they add scenes like Margaery with the children, etc... But this is just another way of making obvious a number of things that we already know in the book. Book Margaery is also clever, charming, politically astute, popular with the people, etc, it's just that the show has to be more visual than the books to show it, but I don't feel they're really adding anything new to her character.

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can't believe you defend jaime that much
Well, maybe because I have read the books, and unless I'm mistaken, you haven't, so I know quite a bit more about Jaime's later character development than you do now. We are really just starting to see more into the character of Jaime Lannister in the show. Normally, this should be enough to realise that the "Lannisters are villains" interpretation is shaky. But there are 5 books and the show is only at season 3, so books readers are considerably ahead of those who have only seen the shows in terms of character development.

As I said, I'm not trying to "defend" Jaime, I'm just trying to show you that one of the main points of this series is to show that the idea of people being "villains" or "honourable" or not is mostly a matter of perspective.

I like the Starks as much as the next person, but you just have to admit that their notion of "honour" does other people (and themselves) more harm than good. Had Ned been a little less "honorable" (or you could say, had he not been stubborn and blind), he might have followed Renly's advice and the War of the Five Kings would not have happened. Ned is likeable because of his attachment to his principles, but in the end, I'm not sure he's a better lord than a cold, ruthless bastard like Tywin.
The very concept of "honour" and "loyalty" are quite difficult to define, as well. What are you loyal to? A person? An institution? Your family? Principles? Gods? Laws? Whose laws? What is the most important, your own actions, or their result?
Had Ned Stark been in Jaime's place with King Aerys, would he have let the whole city burn with its people just because he had to be "loyal" to his oath to the King? Would he just have stuck to the law blindly, just as he does by executing this boy from the Night's Watch just because "it's the law" and he believes he has no choice?

Just for the record, if anyone sees the Starks as perfectly good and honourable, have you noticed the very nice guys we saw in the last episode? You know, those who wanted to **** Brienne and who cut Jaime's hand off? The "Brave Companions" also known as the "Bloody Mummers" have finally been introduced (in the book they are shown much earlier). They are fighting for the Starks if I'm not mistaken, and they are probably the most disgusting bunch of bastards in the entire series. Them, and the Boltons (especially the Bastard of Bolton), who, by the way, have also been fighting as Stark bannermen in the present war.
If I remember correctly, civilians suffer just as much at the hands of Stark bannermen as they do at the hands of Lannister bannermen. And I don't remember the Starks trying to do anything to restrain these people who do awful things to the civilian population in their name. So, one way of seeing things is that the Starks mostly remain "honourable" by having other people do the bad stuff for them, while the Lannisters just do it themselves and take responsibility for it.

Another episode that implies a certain ruthlessness from the Starks is the story of the war with the Iron Islands. We don't see this in the series because it happened before the story starts, but it is often heavily implied that the repression was fierce and that the Islands are still trying to recover from whatever the Starks did to punish them. Of course, if you are a Stark advocate, you can see this as a just punishment for a rebellion. Once again, it's mostly a matter of perspective.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:20 AM   #325
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Sophita, I think Robb got no idea the amount of atrocities that are beeing commited behind his back, whenever he is in leadership position of his army he makes sure that civilians are not slaughtered, he keeps prisoners and so on, he even (stupidly) punishes one of his most important bannermen for killing those Lannister boys.

However, you are right that the concepts of heroes and villains are questioned by the series. Tywin had been known to be an amazing hand of the kind who made Westeros prosper, he is a coldhearthed man who is terrible to the enemy and innocents in war but in peacetime he is probably the best leader in the 7 kingdoms. He kind of reminds me of Putin, the media writtes him down as this coldhearthed terrible dictator while they kind of liked the drunk Boris Yeltsin. In reality Russia has prospered under Putin and Putin and alot of the oligarchs lost power as he took back natural resources to the state, while Boris Yeltsin made his country become poorer, indebted and something to be mocked. Kind of a parallel to Tywin/Robbert.

Robert wanted to be a hero but also needed to have the Targaryan children killed so Tywin was the one to do it without asking to ease Robert's conscience. For me Tywin is a realworld villain, in Hollywood villains such as him are seen as almost characters acting in absurd fashion whose cruelty has no logical explanation to it. Tywin is really the most reasonable character in the series, the ones who like to think of themselves heroes look like fools, like if they live in a world of illusions and this is something that Jamie likes to make fun of.

Jamie unlike his father want nothing to do with the power game and all the nescessary evil that comes with it, his whole life has been about one broken illusion after the other and he just doesnt care about anything (except his swordfighting, sister and brother). When he starts losing those few things he care about, he almost goes back to dig into those illusions he left deep inside him when he was a young man. Brienne's naivity maybe reminds him of himself as a boy and in the beginning he mocks her for it, but in the end he comes to realise that sense of honor still means something to him.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:47 PM   #326
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
Sophita, I think Robb got no idea the amount of atrocities that are beeing commited behind his back, whenever he is in leadership position of his army he makes sure that civilians are not slaughtered, he keeps prisoners and so on, he even (stupidly) punishes one of his most important bannermen for killing those Lannister boys.

However, you are right that the concepts of heroes and villains are questioned by the series. Tywin had been known to be an amazing hand of the kind who made Westeros prosper, he is a coldhearthed man who is terrible to the enemy and innocents in war but in peacetime he is probably the best leader in the 7 kingdoms. He kind of reminds me of Putin, the media writtes him down as this coldhearthed terrible dictator while they kind of liked the drunk Boris Yeltsin. In reality Russia has prospered under Putin and Putin and alot of the oligarchs lost power as he took back natural resources to the state, while Boris Yeltsin made his country become poorer, indebted and something to be mocked. Kind of a parallel to Tywin/Robbert.

Robert wanted to be a hero but also needed to have the Targaryan children killed so Tywin was the one to do it without asking to ease Robert's conscience. For me Tywin is a realworld villain, in Hollywood villains such as him are seen as almost characters acting in absurd fashion whose cruelty has no logical explanation to it. Tywin is really the most reasonable character in the series, the ones who like to think of themselves heroes look like fools, like if they live in a world of illusions and this is something that Jamie likes to make fun of.

Jamie unlike his father want nothing to do with the power game and all the nescessary evil that comes with it, his whole life has been about one broken illusion after the other and he just doesnt care about anything (except his swordfighting, sister and brother). When he starts losing those few things he care about, he almost goes back to dig into those illusions he left deep inside him when he was a young man. Brienne's naivity maybe reminds him of himself as a boy and in the beginning he mocks her for it, but in the end he comes to realise that sense of honor still means something to him.
Completely agree with all this.
About Robb, he may be unaware of what's happening... But that does not really count in his favour. He is still indirectly responsible for letting it happen. That he is ignorant of what his bannermen are doing only shows he is a rather bad leader, probably due to his lack of experience, but also maybe to the Stark habit of being rather naive and a little thick.

BTW the videos about the Lannisters were awesome. I agree that the girl is pushing it a little too far by claiming that Jaime is a "good guy", and it's a shame that she conveniently neglects to talk about the incident with Bran... But otherwise I think her explanations are pretty good. In my opinion, Jaime is a grey character, but overall he is closer to being a positive character than a negative one by the time you finish book 5.
You can't really say the same about Cersei. I don't hate her particularly and I understand her bitterness, but at the same time, she is morally far worse than Jaime. First, in her attitude to Tyrion, and even in her love towards Jaime. Once of the benefits of introducing Jaime POV chapters is that you realize that his love for Cersei is real, powerful, and (if I dare use that word when talking of incest) actually rather "pure". I think it really changes the vision of his incestuous love for his sister, because at first you only see the disgusting side of it, and then you start seeing it as somehow tragic and idealistic in a fucked-up kind of way. You cannot really say the same about Cersei's feelings for Jaime, though, she seems far less "pure" and more calculating and bitchy.
Of course the fact that Jaime is so much in love with his sister while she is such a bitch is a bit difficult to understand.


Another thing I hadn't noticed (I'm realizing I have forgotten many, many things from the books) is that Sandor Clegane was supposed to cry at the end of his duel with Berric.
To be honest I did not remember this, but I understand why fans are mad at this omission. It is pretty obvious that the show thought Sandor had to be badass and that in order to remain cool and badass, he could not cry. It's sad to see that they are sacrificing complex character development and trading it for used-up clichés, as always...
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:49 PM   #327
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

shae is a terrible actress, heard she did porn before while there are some successful transfers from porn to normal movies, this one is certainly a fail

as if she at least was pretty or smth
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:13 PM   #328
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Just came in here to say THE RED WEDDING!!! Can't wait
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:12 PM   #329
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaliia View Post
shae is a terrible actress, heard she did porn before while there are some successful transfers from porn to normal movies, this one is certainly a fail

as if she at least was pretty or smth
She is the only terrible actress/actor in the show. Yes, she is not even pretty.

I think the only scene I liked her in was when she talked about her fish pie with Varys in season 2, but then again any scene with Varys is gold.

I hope we get to see as little from her as possible, more Margeary and Olenna instead.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:34 AM   #330
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
She is the only terrible actress/actor in the show. Yes, she is not even pretty.

I think the only scene I liked her in was when she talked about her fish pie with Varys in season 2, but then again any scene with Varys is gold.

I hope we get to see as little from her as possible, more Margeary and Olenna instead.
Wow, you're even harsher on Shae than I am, people

I didn't particularly notice that she was a bad actress, my impression is simply that her character is very annoying and not very interesting.
I think she's actually rather pretty, that's the only quality I would grant her ^^
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