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Old 04-28-2013, 10:39 PM   #301
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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I think if they wanted to portray all of that deep stuff blah blah,, they should have gotten a cuter actor so the more shallow of us could stay interested.
Point taken.

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The one thing that really disturbed me, was having Jaime roll around in all that much after having his hand severed. All I could think about was infection, gangrene etc.
Well, it is a series about the fantasy equivalent of a medieval society, it is supposed to rouse those associations and be disturbing.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:12 PM   #302
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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The one thing that really disturbed me, was having Jaime roll around in all that much after having his hand severed. All I could think about was infection, gangrene etc.
If you saw his stump today I would say it was pretty infected alright, but Qyburn can do more than just cure infections...

Other than that, this episode was even better than last one in my opinion. Selyse was more creepy than in the books, poor Shireen seemed to almost melt Stannis' heart of iron (but not quite), Jamie/Brienne continues to deliver, Jon knows where to put it (and that...) and Hound-Beric had the most awesome fight in the series so far!
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:50 PM   #303
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Point taken.



Well, it is a series about the fantasy equivalent of a medieval society, it is supposed to rouse those associations and be disturbing.
It disturbed me because I didn't think it was realistic. Not because I was grossed out. It took me out of the story. That's what I meant when I said I was disturbed.

What disturbs me in the way you meant are the torture scenes. I just fast forward through them. There are other things too that bore me that I ff through. The book was also boring in the same places. The tv show seems to go softer on the religious parts, and I'm grateful for that.

I'm just sort of waiting for the big dramatic scenes in the book now,

Also, things sort of blur for me between the book and the show, but in the book, wasn't it Jaime who stood naked in front of Brienne? Not a big point, but was wondering.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:45 PM   #304
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

I've just finished catching up on all 5 episodes... Well, there are things that I like, and also things that I don't like.

I think the biggest problem I have with the series at the moment is the way they cut up the story into lots of different bits. I understand the difficulty of keeping up with all the different storylines going on at the same time, and I know that if they decided not to show certain characters for an episode or two, the fans of said characters would complain, but... I really have the feeling that the choice they have made is the worst choice.
In my opinion, showing little pieces of each story just kills the rhythm, and the various scenes lose a lot of intensity. I don't know if it's just me, but I cannot really get engrossed in a story if it keeps switching from one plot to another. I like the tension to build up, I don't like to have it taken away from me again and again.
I think they should have bigger "bits" of each story at a time, even if they have to leave out some of the storylines for one episode or two. The Theon storyline, for instance, is pretty useless. In the books, no one knows what's happening to Theon, and no one really cares, for that matter. We don't need to see this now.

What I really liked was, obviously, Daenerys. Her story can be a little boring sometimes (especially when it is cut into small bits and nothing really happens...) but when it gets epic, it really DOES get epic.
That scene with the dragon reminded me of the season 1 finale, which is, I believe, still my favourite scene in the entire series so far. I love the actress as well, she is just perfect.

I also rather appreciate the Jaime and Brienne storyline. I was a little disappointed at the scene when Jaime loses his hand (it happened so quickly and the episode just ended there, rather abruptly, instead of being an "OMG!" moment it was more like "er WTF?!"). But otherwise, I love these two characters, and I think the actors really deliver. The bath scene and Jaime's explanation about the Mad King's death is one of my favourite moments.

One thing that keeps pissing me off is the portrayal of Loras Tyrell.
Apparently some people are rejoicing because it is already huge for an American series to show openly gay characters, but, really, in my opinion, it's not much of a progress to show gay guys if that means you automatically have to turn he and Renly into walking stereotypes (even altering their characters to turn them into wealklings and make them more "effeminate" as they did with Renly, and as they are also doing with Loras to a lesser extent). It's not much of a progress either if a character like Loras Tyrell, who is rather important, is almost reduced to being nothing else but the "gay guy", as if filling that function made him unfit to be anything else.
I mean, both Loras and Renly are supposed to be rather badass at jousting and fighting. They are no weaklings, neither of them. Sure, they are a bit ridiculous because they are vain, arrogant pretty boys, but they are STILL pretty badass. Loras in particular is an excellent fighter (at least in tournaments). But you never really see that in the series.
I was waiting for them to finally show this aspect of Loras, and when we saw him sword fighting, I thought "finally!" Except that about 2 seconds later, they simply turned this scene into another reminder of "HEY Loras is the gay guy!" and this had to turn into a "seducing the squire" scene which led to a completely pointless scene of gay sex.
I am perfectly fine with the idea of showing Renly and Loras as gay, since it's pretty obvious from the books that they are both gay, but why couldn't they just simply be great knights, charismatic people with real fighting ability and class, AND also be gay? I just don't see the need to change their characters, actually, to me, this decision is not a good thing for the representation of gay people (since they seem unable to see gay people as something other than the stereotypical image) and it is not a good thing for the characters either (since they are reduced to only this dimension).
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:24 AM   #305
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
I've just finished catching up on all 5 episodes... Well, there are things that I like, and also things that I don't like.

I think the biggest problem I have with the series at the moment is the way they cut up the story into lots of different bits. I understand the difficulty of keeping up with all the different storylines going on at the same time, and I know that if they decided not to show certain characters for an episode or two, the fans of said characters would complain, but... I really have the feeling that the choice they have made is the worst choice.
In my opinion, showing little pieces of each story just kills the rhythm, and the various scenes lose a lot of intensity. I don't know if it's just me, but I cannot really get engrossed in a story if it keeps switching from one plot to another. I like the tension to build up, I don't like to have it taken away from me again and again.
I think they should have bigger "bits" of each story at a time, even if they have to leave out some of the storylines for one episode or two. The Theon storyline, for instance, is pretty useless. In the books, no one knows what's happening to Theon, and no one really cares, for that matter. We don't need to see this now.

What I really liked was, obviously, Daenerys. Her story can be a little boring sometimes (especially when it is cut into small bits and nothing really happens...) but when it gets epic, it really DOES get epic.
That scene with the dragon reminded me of the season 1 finale, which is, I believe, still my favourite scene in the entire series so far. I love the actress as well, she is just perfect.

I also rather appreciate the Jaime and Brienne storyline. I was a little disappointed at the scene when Jaime loses his hand (it happened so quickly and the episode just ended there, rather abruptly, instead of being an "OMG!" moment it was more like "er WTF?!"). But otherwise, I love these two characters, and I think the actors really deliver. The bath scene and Jaime's explanation about the Mad King's death is one of my favourite moments.

One thing that keeps pissing me off is the portrayal of Loras Tyrell.
Apparently some people are rejoicing because it is already huge for an American series to show openly gay characters, but, really, in my opinion, it's not much of a progress to show gay guys if that means you automatically have to turn he and Renly into walking stereotypes (even altering their characters to turn them into wealklings and make them more "effeminate" as they did with Renly, and as they are also doing with Loras to a lesser extent). It's not much of a progress either if a character like Loras Tyrell, who is rather important, is almost reduced to being nothing else but the "gay guy", as if filling that function made him unfit to be anything else.
I mean, both Loras and Renly are supposed to be rather badass at jousting and fighting. They are no weaklings, neither of them. Sure, they are a bit ridiculous because they are vain, arrogant pretty boys, but they are STILL pretty badass. Loras in particular is an excellent fighter (at least in tournaments). But you never really see that in the series.
I was waiting for them to finally show this aspect of Loras, and when we saw him sword fighting, I thought "finally!" Except that about 2 seconds later, they simply turned this scene into another reminder of "HEY Loras is the gay guy!" and this had to turn into a "seducing the squire" scene which led to a completely pointless scene of gay sex.
I am perfectly fine with the idea of showing Renly and Loras as gay, since it's pretty obvious from the books that they are both gay, but why couldn't they just simply be great knights, charismatic people with real fighting ability and class, AND also be gay? I just don't see the need to change their characters, actually, to me, this decision is not a good thing for the representation of gay people (since they seem unable to see gay people as something other than the stereotypical image) and it is not a good thing for the characters either (since they are reduced to only this dimension).
yes completely agreed...too many stories at the same time. way too many.

but what pisses me off the most is how they built this hate towards the "bad guys" just to have it delayed all the time and come with ridiculous ways for them to turn the tides. how lucky can they get?
then with so many stories and so much delay it feels like the story with the lannisters should have ended long ago but it keeps on dragging like it's the main story?
then joffrey suddenly dissapears? they make all these improbable "fixes" now to redeem these characters...like there is any way i would feel sorry for them

fantasy is one thing but they messed up bad imo...they ruined the logic of the show because it has all come down to "guessing" what is going to happen tho everything is guessing. the fights, who will die this or that.

cmon people just wanted to see joffrey get his but the wait was so long and they threw so many stories that they ruined the show.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:16 AM   #306
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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yes completely agreed...too many stories at the same time. way too many.

but what pisses me off the most is how they built this hate towards the "bad guys" just to have it delayed all the time and come with ridiculous ways for them to turn the tides. how lucky can they get?
then with so many stories and so much delay it feels like the story with the lannisters should have ended long ago but it keeps on dragging like it's the main story?
then joffrey suddenly dissapears? they make all these improbable "fixes" now to redeem these characters...like there is any way i would feel sorry for them

fantasy is one thing but they messed up bad imo...they ruined the logic of the show because it has all come down to "guessing" what is going to happen tho everything is guessing. the fights, who will die this or that.

cmon people just wanted to see joffrey get his but the wait was so long and they threw so many stories that they ruined the show.
Well, I'm sorry to tell you this if you don't enjoy it, but the story with the Lannisters IS the main story... Pretty much. Arguably there is something really big coming from the Daenerys side but for the moment, it is still not really in motion, even in the books.

I'm not blaming them for having many stories going on at the same time. This is what it is like in the book, and actually, I think it's awesome. What I don't like is the rhythm. It is possible to have several stories going on without going back and forth between them every 3 minutes. I think that's the problem, not the presence of several stories, but the way they are handled (especially the editing).

The problem is that, if you like to have bad guys on the one side and good guys on the other, you will just not be happy with a series like A Song of Ice and Fire (or Game of Thrones as they called the TV series - as long as the series remains vaguely true to the book).
The main interest of this series is precisely that there are no good guys and bad guys. Personally, it is probably what I like the most about it.
The technique of the "point of view" narration is what makes this possible. And what is really fascinating about this story is the way you keep re-interpreting past events as they introduce new POV characters (there are several ways of telling the same story, according to where you stand...) and you start seeing how THEY perceived certain events, while before you were more or less a "prisoner" of the Stark point of view.
The thing to understand is that what you see now is NOT an attempt to redeem the bad guys in order to drag the story on, what you see now is simply that there are no bad guys. Not really. What you have is a very realistic depiction of characters, in which people all have to deal with their own situation and what they have been given in life, and they all work to protect their own interests, their loved ones, what they think is right, etc.

Of course you still have a number of characters who are thoroughly despicable, their background and the difficulties they had to face do not necessarily provide excuses for anything they do. Guys like Ramsay Bolton, Vargo Hoat, Gregor Clegane are pretty close to being real bad guys. Joffrey's sadistic personality cannot be completely excused by his upbringing either. But people like Cersei, Jaime, etc, are "bad guys" only because you have been led to see them as bad guys at the beginning of the story.
Start thinking about what exactly makes the Stark "good guys" compared to the Lannisters and you'll see that, apart from the fact that you were introduced to them first and were led to see things as they see them, there is not much to vouch for their "goodness".
As far as Daenerys is concerned, Ned Stark was involved in Robert's rebellion which deposed and massacred most of her family and deprived her of her "birthright".
As far as Jaime Lannister is concerned, Ned Stark, in spite of his reputation as a "good man",was actually a judgmental hypocrite who blamed him for killing Mad King Aerys when it was actually the right thing to do (and everyone was glad that Jaime had done the distateful deed, otherwise they might all have been burnt to death together with the whole population of King's Landing).
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:42 AM   #307
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

isnt it obvious from the first episode that danaerys and jon snow will be queen and king at the end of the story
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:31 PM   #308
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm still waiting for a particular scene involving Sam Tarly... if fellow book readers see what I mean, I think it should have happened by now. I hope they don't take it out because that would not please me
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:35 PM   #309
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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isnt it obvious from the first episode that danaerys and jon snow will be queen and king at the end of the story
I can't think of anything that would be more awful! Jon Snow knows nothing.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:43 PM   #310
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by superslam77 View Post
yes completely agreed...too many stories at the same time. way too many.

but what pisses me off the most is how they built this hate towards the "bad guys" just to have it delayed all the time and come with ridiculous ways for them to turn the tides. how lucky can they get?
then with so many stories and so much delay it feels like the story with the lannisters should have ended long ago but it keeps on dragging like it's the main story?
then joffrey suddenly dissapears? they make all these improbable "fixes" now to redeem these characters...like there is any way i would feel sorry for them

fantasy is one thing but they messed up bad imo...they ruined the logic of the show because it has all come down to "guessing" what is going to happen tho everything is guessing. the fights, who will die this or that.

cmon people just wanted to see joffrey get his but the wait was so long and they threw so many stories that they ruined the show.
Joffrey is just a little brat, he is far from the main antagonist of the story (he is only the 5th most important Lannister of the story), Tywin is at the moment the main antagonist of the story. Lannisters may be the most entertaining and dysfunctional family that has ever been in any show, there can never be too much Lannister on screen.

This show is not about waiting to see the evil guy get his butt hurt, thought you would understand this after Ned lost his head. Also, luck got nothing to do with how Lannisters survived, Tywin is the biggest badass in the 7 kingdoms and luck got nothing to do with why he always defeats his enemies.

The best shows have you guessing, instant gratification of having the bad guy lose before or later is just....predictable and boring as you see too many of these kind of stories. If you are only interested in Jeoffrey in this story I think it is not a story for you, Jeoffrey is not among the top 10 best characters in any way and neither among the top 10 important characters in the story.

Right now the most important players are: Tywin, Tyrion, Stannis, Oleanna, Margeary, Robb, Daenarys, Littlefinger, Varys and the Greyjoys.

Jeoffrey is just a pawn that is difficult for the players to control.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:46 PM   #311
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by Sophitia36 View Post
One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm still waiting for a particular scene involving Sam Tarly... if fellow book readers see what I mean, I think it should have happened by now. I hope they don't take it out because that would not please me
I am quite sure they will have it, but he will be with Gilly instead when it happens (it kind of makes sense that this would be when he got more hearth involved so to speak).
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:55 PM   #312
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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As far as Daenerys is concerned, Ned Stark was involved in Robert's rebellion which deposed and massacred most of her family and deprived her of her "birthright".
As far as Jaime Lannister is concerned, Ned Stark, in spite of his reputation as a "good man",was actually a judgmental hypocrite who blamed him for killing Mad King Aerys when it was actually the right thing to do (and everyone was glad that Jaime had done the distateful deed, otherwise they might all have been burnt to death together with the whole population of King's Landing).
Is that the best you can do in trying to besmirch Ned Stark's name? Sorry that just does not cut it If you had suggested that Ned Stark had personally murdered young children or gave such an order then you might have a point. Guilt by association is overrated We do not know what might or might not have happened. All we know is that Jaime stabbed his king in the back and now he's trying to convince himself of the rightness of his actions. I'm sure he's also got another perfectly good and honourable reason for trying to kill Bran and killing his old squire/ cousin to conjure some kind of an escape. If you think there is some kind of moral equivalency between Jaime's murderous acts and Ned choosing a side in a civil war then
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:06 PM   #313
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

hmm yes very interesting. Now someone must answer the real dilemma. Why does Cersai and Daenerys have such dark eyebrows? Aren't they supposed to be "real" blondes? Distracting.
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:09 PM   #314
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Is that the best you can do in trying to besmirch Ned Stark's name? Sorry that just does not cut it If you had suggested that Ned Stark had personally murdered young children or gave such an order then you might have a point. Guilt by association is overrated We do not know what might or might not have happened. All we know is that Jaime stabbed his king in the back and now he's trying to convince himself of the rightness of his actions. I'm sure he's also got another perfectly good and honourable reason for trying to kill Bran and killing his old squire/ cousin to conjure some kind of an escape. If you think there is some kind of moral equivalency between Jaime's murderous acts and Ned choosing a side in a civil war then
Jamie Lannister never tries to see himself as a good guy, he is a warrior that will do things on impulse and can be quite ruthless at times. Definetly arrogant, nihilistic and utterly without fear of anyone. When he tells the true story to Brienne it is because he is losing conscience and basically with no control of what is slipping out of his mouth, in no way he wants to be seen as a good guy by others but think to himself that he couldnt care less what they think of him.

However he did save the entire city when he killed the mad king and the pyromancer and he sees this as his most heroic moment and everyone judges him for the most heroic thing he has done in his life.

To understand Jamie psychologically, you need to picture him growing up idealising knights and their moral codes as a young boy and at a very young age he became part of the king's guard and there he had all his ideals broken as he had to witness the king commit one atrocity after the other while he was bound to some stupid oath, he saw all these brave knights (his idols, Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne) also just watch as innocent people got slaughtered, burned and tortured by a madman. So he became cynical about codes of honor, he used sarcasm to belittle the horrors he had seen.

Deep inside him, burried deep in some forgotten place that boy who grew up with the ideals about heroic knights still lives on. Ofcourse he has done terrible things since then simply because he stopped caring, but there is still a struggle inside him between light and darkness unlike lets say Cerceri.

I thought this was a very good background video on Jamie without any spoilers (and other Lannisters) even if I think the girl is defending him a bit too much saying he is really a good guy (I would say he is capable of both heroic and horrific actions):



Because the book has so much details and background stories, I recommend nonbook readers to see this one because the show wont ever uncover the whole story on these characters. Here is the first part about Tywin:

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Last edited by sexybeast : 05-01-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:32 PM   #315
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Default Re: HBO game of thrones - anyone watching?

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Originally Posted by sexybeast View Post
Joffrey is just a little brat, he is far from the main antagonist of the story (he is only the 5th most important Lannister of the story), Tywin is at the moment the main antagonist of the story. Lannisters may be the most entertaining and dysfunctional family that has ever been in any show, there can never be too much Lannister on screen.

This show is not about waiting to see the evil guy get his butt hurt, thought you would understand this after Ned lost his head. Also, luck got nothing to do with how Lannisters survived, Tywin is the biggest badass in the 7 kingdoms and luck got nothing to do with why he always defeats his enemies.

The best shows have you guessing, instant gratification of having the bad guy lose before or later is just....predictable and boring as you see too many of these kind of stories. If you are only interested in Jeoffrey in this story I think it is not a story for you, Jeoffrey is not among the top 10 best characters in any way and neither among the top 10 important characters in the story.

Right now the most important players are: Tywin, Tyrion, Stannis, Oleanna, Margeary, Robb, Daenarys, Littlefinger, Varys and the Greyjoys.

Jeoffrey is just a pawn that is difficult for the players to control.
thing is i cannot get over ned losing his head and agreed though i could never identify with any of those characters and i simply can't stand most of them except maybe varys.
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