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Old 05-23-2015, 10:33 AM   #1
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Default ISIS still advancing

This:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/22/mi...ria/index.html

It seems nothing is halting the terror group, branded a "death cult" by our PM, as they capture Ramadi in Iraq and Palmyra in Syria.
This vile group must be stopped, and the only way is boots on the ground now.
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Old 05-23-2015, 10:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

It does make you wonder really how the Iraqi army in particular can be so pathetically weak. I guess the de-Baathification policy, compounded by the sectarian biases of the current Iraqi government, has brought us to this point. It does seem as though the situation on the ground will finally confront many governments with an unavoidable need to act.
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Old 05-23-2015, 12:14 PM   #3
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

i just can't figure out how do you organize an army of various criminals without a state, without institutions, etc.

partisans just adding up and getting more...this should be just a training session for any organized army in the world, whatever the number of the partisans, this just makes no sense at all..
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

Any professional and technologically advanced army would just waltz through that rabble in a couple of months (USA, Israel, Iran etc.), maybe even weeks. I mean...it's a desert for God's sake not a mountainous terrain like in Afghanistan.

It seems that "training and equipping" Iraqi army we have heard over the years was just another lie. Expected.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

What the Fall of Ramadi Means
by Patrick J. Buchanan, May 22, 2015
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The fall of Ramadi, capital of Anbar, largest province in Iraq, after a rout of the Iraqi army by a few hundred ISIS fighters using bomb-laden trucks, represents a stunning setback for U.S. policy.

When President Obama declared that we shall "degrade and defeat" the Islamic State, he willed the ends, but not the means. The retreat from Ramadi makes clear that the Iraqi army, even backed by 3,000 U.S. troops, cannot drive ISIS out of Anbar and Mosul and back into Syria.

Baghdad cannot alone reunite Iraq.

Republicans are almost gleeful in charging that Obama’s withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq created the vacuum the Islamic State has now filled.

Blaming Obama for ISIS in Iraq is shaping up to be the 2016 GOP attack line. But when it comes to the critical question – do Republicans favor reintroducing U.S. ground troops to retake Ramadi and Mosul and drive ISIS back into Syria? – no credible GOP presidential candidate is clamoring for a return to Mesopotamia.

None of the mice wants to bell that particular cat.

Yet, absent American leadership and U.S. troops, who is going to expel the Islamic State? The only forces in Iraq able to attempt that are the Shiite militias whose sectarian barbarity is exceeded only by that of ISIS itself.

For the Sunnis of Anbar to be liberated by Shiite militias is like the Catholic Poles being liberated by the Red Army in 1945. Many Sunnis fear a rescue by Shiite militias more than they do the domination of the Islamic State.

America’s choices in Iraq, none good, come down to these:

One: Reintroduce 10,000 ground troops and Marines to retake Ramadi and Anbar, and thousands more to retake Mosul and cleanse Iraq of ISIS. Another surge, like 2007.

Yet that does not solve the problem of the Islamic State, which would retreat to Syria and wait for the Americans to leave Iraq again.

Two: Adopt a policy of degrade-and-contain by continuing air strikes on the Islamic State in Iraq, while training and backing the Iraqi army and Kurds in keeping ISIS out of Baghdad and Irbil.

Three: Accept the inevitable – that the Shiite-led Iraq we created by dethroning Saddam and smashing his Baathist state and army is going to be in the orbit of Iran. For we cannot now, without a major and indefinite reintroduction of U.S. forces, alter the existing balance of military and political power in Iraq.

Before the United States replicates the epochal blunder Bush II and the neocons committed, we should look hard at the realities of Iraq and the region, as we failed to do before we invaded.

The relevant realities are these.

First, the Iraqis are incapable of reuniting and pacifying their country themselves. To hold Iraq together and keep it out of Iran’s sphere would require a large and indefinite presence of U.S. forces.

How much more American blood and treasure is that worth?

Second, while the reintroduction of U.S. ground forces may be cheered by our Western allies, no NATO troops will be there beside us. As far as the West is concerned, Iraq is America’s problem.

Nor will the Turks, Jordanians, Saudis or Gulf Arabs be sending troops to fight ISIS in Iraq or Syria. For them, the greater long-term dangers are: Iran, Hezbollah, Bashar Assad’s Syria, Shiite Baghdad, and the Houthi rebels of Yemen, the so-called Shiite Crescent.

Another reality is that neither Syria, nor Iraq, nor Libya, nor Yemen is likely, soon, to be brought together as a unified nation-state under a government supported by a great majority of its people.

Any regimes that rise in the capitals of these four nations seem certain to be seen by a significant slice of the population as illegitimate, and valid targets for revolutionary violence.

The Middle East is becoming a basket of failed states. And as we look around that region, every country is looking out for No. 1.

The Turks looked the other way as volunteers entered Syria to join ISIS. The Turks then let Kurds cross into Syria to keep ISIS out of Kobane. Now, according to Assad, the Turks are aiding al-Qaida (the Nusra Front) in establishing its own caliphate in Idlib. The Saudis and Gulf Arabs also, says Assad, aided the Nusra Front in taking Idlib.

And what of us?

Considering the millions of dead, wounded, uprooted, homeless, sick and suffering, American-born and native-born, have our wars and bombings in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen been, on balance, more a blessing than a curse to the people we went to help?

Before we plunge back into these Middle East wars from which, at long last, we have begun to extricate ourselves, we ought to recall the words of that anonymous U.S. officer in Vietnam:

"We had to destroy the village – in order to save it."
http://original.antiwar.com/buchanan...-ramadi-means/
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Old 05-24-2015, 10:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

ISIS continue on their rampage:

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/28...en-in-palmyra/

This was to be expected though.
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:03 AM   #7
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

Oh, Palmyra...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Latso View Post
i just can't figure out how do you organize an army of various criminals without a state, without institutions, etc.

partisans just adding up and getting more...this should be just a training session for any organized army in the world, whatever the number of the partisans, this just makes no sense at all..
The question is very easy to answer. They adhere to a very strict and well prescribed law, Sharia, so the judiciary and law enforcement, as the basic functions of a state really come naturally to them. Thus defined they already have the army and the police, and the rest like running schools, hospitals etc, follows the line. so they indeed have at least an embryo of state there. Islamic State.

And they rule through intimidation and terror but also receive some support from the local Sunni population. Couple that with the obvious reluctance of the West to react decisively and you have this. It almost feels like 'OK let them kill themselves off until they drop and then we'll see'


Quote:
Originally Posted by chalkdust View Post
It does make you wonder really how the Iraqi army in particular can be so pathetically weak. I guess the de-Baathification policy, compounded by the sectarian biases of the current Iraqi government, has brought us to this point. It does seem as though the situation on the ground will finally confront many governments with an unavoidable need to act.
You are right about purging the remnants of the old Baath system, and it probably required extensive assistance from Shia and thus indirectly from Iran. That's the beauty of the story. In any democratic elections the results will be the same: the Shia majority backed by Iran will rule. This is the way it is over there and it's not likely to change. The other option is a dictatorship as before. It is a trap. As for the weakness of the Iraqi army see below.

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Originally Posted by Federer Forever View Post
Any professional and technologically advanced army would just waltz through that rabble in a couple of months (USA, Israel, Iran etc.), maybe even weeks. I mean...it's a desert for God's sake not a mountainous terrain like in Afghanistan.

It seems that "training and equipping" Iraqi army we have heard over the years was just another lie. Expected.
It was not a lie, but the fact is that the US government amazingly has failed again and again to realize that there are no Iraqis and therefore there can't be an Iraqi army. Although the region is the home of the oldest civilization, the borders of the country are recent and mostly arbitrary and they mean next to nothing to the local population. The concept of 'nation' is the last of their priorities with the exception of Kurds. It is quite different from the western mindset, that is why the Americans ask themselves now 'How did we get there?'

As for the waltz...indeed if ISIS really attacked Israel on a massive scale, we would see the ISIS obliterated from the face of the earth. Israelis are very smart people and will react eventually only if and when it suits them.

Last edited by ssin : 05-25-2015 at 12:31 AM.
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Old 05-25-2015, 02:11 AM   #8
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

No doubt Dubya's brother will be rounding up a coalition of the willing next November if it doesn't resolve itself.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssin View Post

The question is very easy to answer. They adhere to a very strict and well prescribed law, Sharia, so the judiciary and law enforcement, as the basic functions of a state really come naturally to them. Thus defined they already have the army and the police, and the rest like running schools, hospitals etc, follows the line. so they indeed have at least an embryo of state there. Islamic State.

And they rule through intimidation and terror but also receive some support from the local Sunni population. Couple that with the obvious reluctance of the West to react decisively and you have this. It almost feels like 'OK let them kill themselves off until they drop and then we'll see'
I don't really accept the idea that all these dutiful people, faifthfully following the Sharia, have bound themselves into a nation of laws. Various commanders, aka warlords, will be in control of their various territories, and will "tax" whoever is unfortunate enough still to be living in the area.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ssin View Post
You are right about purging the remnants of the old Baath system, and it probably required extensive assistance from Shia and thus indirectly from Iran. That's the beauty of the story. In any democratic elections the results will be the same: the Shia majority backed by Iran will rule. This is the way it is over there and it's not likely to change. The other option is a dictatorship as before. It is a trap. As for the weakness of the Iraqi army see below.

It was not a lie, but the fact is that the US government amazingly has failed again and again to realize that there are no Iraqis and therefore there can't be an Iraqi army. Although the region is the home of the oldest civilization, the borders of the country are recent and mostly arbitrary and they mean next to nothing to the local population. The concept of 'nation' is the last of their priorities with the exception of Kurds. It is quite different from the western mindset, that is why the Americans ask themselves now 'How did we get there?'

[...]
The Americans ask themselves this, because the essence of a modern state is to govern based on shared values and even-handedness, irrespective of cultural or religious distinctions. This is why western countries accept (not always wholeheartedly) mass immigration, and tolerate and even encourage minority languages. Even Communist states operate under the same assumption, that diverse peoples can embrace a single system of government.

The point is it ought to be possible for people to adhere to something greater than the accident of their own native culture. The reasons for this not happening in Iraq are no doubt complicated, but no democrat (or communist) can accept that there is anything inevitable about that.
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Old 05-26-2015, 08:05 AM   #10
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalkdust View Post
I don't really accept the idea that all these dutiful people, faifthfully following the Sharia, have bound themselves into a nation of laws. Various commanders, aka warlords, will be in control of their various territories, and will "tax" whoever is unfortunate enough still to be living in the area.

The Americans ask themselves this, because the essence of a modern state is to govern based on shared values and even-handedness, irrespective of cultural or religious distinctions. This is why western countries accept (not always wholeheartedly) mass immigration, and tolerate and even encourage minority languages. Even Communist states operate under the same assumption, that diverse peoples can embrace a single system of government.

The point is it ought to be possible for people to adhere to something greater than the accident of their own native culture. The reasons for this not happening in Iraq are no doubt complicated, but no democrat (or communist) can accept that there is anything inevitable about that.
You aptly present the Western stance and I agree with what you are saying.
But, whether we accept or not an idea is not relevant in this story. Nor is what ought and what ought not to be. There is nothing greater than Allah and modern nation concept means little or nothing in that context, actually it is perceived as something infinitely inferior.

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Old 05-26-2015, 09:26 AM   #11
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssin View Post
But, whether we accept or not an idea is not relevant in this story. Nor is what ought and what ought not to be. There is nothing greater than Allah and modern nation concept means little or nothing in that context, actually it is perceived as something infinitely inferior.
I do agree, except that I believe that, in the long run, people will "vote with their feet". For all the hysteria over the small numbers of people travelling to Syria to fight with Isis, there seem to be much greater numbers travelling in the opposite direction.

The comparison isn't strictly fair, because people are in many cases fleeing for their lives, or for purely economic reasons, or to bring "jihad" to London and Paris, but I have confidence that liberal democracy, for all its faults, is more appealing for the majority of Muslims to live in than an Islamic caliphate.
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Old 05-26-2015, 12:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: ISIS still advancing

Quote:
Originally Posted by chalkdust View Post
I do agree, except that I believe that, in the long run, people will "vote with their feet". For all the hysteria over the small numbers of people travelling to Syria to fight with Isis, there seem to be much greater numbers travelling in the opposite direction.

The comparison isn't strictly fair, because people are in many cases fleeing for their lives, or for purely economic reasons, or to bring "jihad" to London and Paris, but I have confidence that liberal democracy, for all its faults, is more appealing for the majority of Muslims to live in than an Islamic caliphate.
rightfully so. In Australia there are a lot of Muslims and they have the freedom to practice their religion. However there are no restrictions placed upon them as it is in countries with Islamic rule. I remember at one phase some 'radical' Muslims declaring they would make Australia an Islamic state and force its people to observe Islamic Shariah law (not necessarily the religion itself). However an Islamic speaker said that at the present state, the caliphate is quite a bad idea because people are not ready for it, practically and legally speaking, and similarly attempting to enforce Shariah law would be pretty dim affair for both Muslims and non-Muslims.

I reckon at its core, ISIS is not even really 'Islamic' directly. They persecute both Muslims and non-Muslims across the board.
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