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Old 04-19-2011, 11:27 AM   #91
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
that's an awful idea.

current system is mostly fine although can be a bit weighted in favour of challengers.

I think there should be more points for wins in qualies. It pains me to see guys who have the balls to try and qualify for bigger events end up with nothing while the guys who never bother can pick up easy points in challengers.

I have done zero analysis on this but qualie draws seem to be getting weaker and weaker and it's not surprising with the way points are weighted.
+1

But it's not in the top players' interest to make main draws harder by attracting much better qualie fields, so I don't think we'll see that change soon.
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:31 AM   #92
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

There's nothing like seeing Qualifier vs. Qualifier in a main draw of a big tournament (Masters or slam) these days.

It has offered us the opportunity to have matches like Riba vs. Andujar in one of the biggest hard court tournaments of the year. Thankfully not all courts are televised yet.
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:35 AM   #93
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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+1

But it's not in the top players' interest to make main draws harder by attracting much better qualie fields, so I don't think we'll see that change soon.
If it was in the top players interest then there would be 32 player draws in all IS events.
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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:44 AM   #94
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by Li Ching Yuen View Post
He can't be classified yet. He has had some decent wins at tour level quite awhile ago and in the challengers he has beaten the toughest competition at that level.

His results are reflective of his playing style. He relies a lot on groundies with not such a good movement and his serve needs a lot of work.

He needs some indoor faster courts to string some wins and then maybe we'll have a new Dimitrov.
I agree he's too young to be labelled an ATP Tour failure. I've only mentioned him because his game is often perceived as being too good for "wasting" it in challengers, yet he appears to be too boyish both mentally and physically for competing at the main tour on a regular basis.
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:54 AM   #95
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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If it was in the top players interest then there would be 32 player draws in all IS events.
But theoretically it would make for the stronger draws at MM events, wouldn't it? And the lower-ranked players which lost their MD spots would have an opportunity to enter qualies thus increasing the strength of Q draws as well, no?
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Old 04-19-2011, 11:56 AM   #96
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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But theoretically it would make for the stronger draws at MM events, wouldn't it? And the lower-ranked players which lost their MD spots would have an opportunity to enter qualies thus increasing the strength of Q draws as well, no?
No, they want the 6 figure appearance money like most people. They want more money for less matches.
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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:23 PM   #97
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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No, they want the 6 figure appearance money like most people. They want more money for less matches.
a two man power play is something that the last ten years should be remembered for, but we wont hear a whisper of...

i am certain it is not in a tournament directors interests to be having 4 or more less matches per tournament... sure, the seeds go thru later and are fresher, but there's less product to sell right...? big no-no...

but, this duopoly was so dominant that it was able to oversee the killing off of 5 set tour finals and reduced draws... hell... i dont even see the need for a reduced calendar...

so.. the fans get robbed...

ideally, what should have been happening is a free tour... free of mandatory events... let the players schedule the year they like... hell, the top guys do it anyways... and, like every year there is not a yank in sight in europe, not that it matters a great deal... prize money and appearance fee grew the tour to such strength in the first place, and it still happens, so why not form a balanced points system and let that happen anyways... the 'you must do this, and this, and this' attitude from the atp suits a few cos a few do what they want anyways but keeps the noobs in line... as mcenroe said: 'commie bullshit'
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:59 PM   #98
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Every era had late bloomers
So?

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I totally agree with that and i also think the density of the field is more impressive nowadays which make things harder for youngsters. I know most of people here desagree (or pretend desagreeing) with that and there is no reliable way to demonstrate this point.
More impressive how?
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:19 AM   #99
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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With the way that the ATP has redesigned their rankings system, we will continue to see this back and forth occurring. The points system as it now currently stands over-rewards the challenger system like crazy (this coming from a huge challenger supporter), and it is just ridiculous. For example, a challenger win is either equal to or exceeds the points given to a semifinalist at a 250 event or a round of 32 at a best of five set Grand Slam, which is just crazy.

This. It's not about increasing CH prize-money, sponsors wouldn't be able to support it. This is business, remember. I think we need a lot of 30K and 50K, for the guys coming from Futures, but less points for this, around 55 for a victory. Then, 125K, with 100 points, would really be the only appealing ones for low Top-100 guys, making them much more competitive. They almost wouldn' t play 30k, since qualy+atp250 QF would mean the same , and a possible SF would Be Much better than victory At 30K.. So, we Would have low CH for new comers and Top 100-200, and big competitive challengers for low Top-100. This would probably solve, I think, the current problems of ATP points system, and we would end up having more big CH, because the better draws would attract decent sponsors.

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Old 04-20-2011, 12:48 AM   #100
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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This. It's not about increasing CH prize-money, sponsors wouldn't be able to support it. This is business, remember. I think we need a lot of 30K and 50K, for the guys coming from Futures, but less points for this, around 55 for a victory. Then, 125K, with 100 points, would really be the only appealing ones for low Top-100 guys, making them much more competitive. They almost wouldn' t play 30k, since qualy+atp250 QF would mean the same , and a possible SF would Be Much better than victory At 30K.. So, we Would have low CH for new comers and Top 100-200, and big competitive challengers for low Top-100. This would probably solve, I think, the current problems of ATP points system, and we would end up having more big CH, because the better draws would attract decent sponsors.
good post... is very simple what you write... food for thought...

maybe just need to have 3 or 4 catergories of challenger... two high grade challengers (125K @ 100pts + 100K @ 90pts), two low grade stepping stone challengers (50K @ 55pts + 35K @ 45pts)...cut out the ones in between 50K and 100K...
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Old 04-20-2011, 01:03 AM   #101
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Originally Posted by fast_clay View Post
a two man power play is something that the last ten years should be remembered for, but we wont hear a whisper of...

i am certain it is not in a tournament directors interests to be having 4 or more less matches per tournament... sure, the seeds go thru later and are fresher, but there's less product to sell right...? big no-no...

but, this duopoly was so dominant that it was able to oversee the killing off of 5 set tour finals and reduced draws... hell... i dont even see the need for a reduced calendar...

so.. the fans get robbed...

ideally, what should have been happening is a free tour... free of mandatory events... let the players schedule the year they like... hell, the top guys do it anyways... and, like every year there is not a yank in sight in europe, not that it matters a great deal... prize money and appearance fee grew the tour to such strength in the first place, and it still happens, so why not form a balanced points system and let that happen anyways... the 'you must do this, and this, and this' attitude from the atp suits a few cos a few do what they want anyways but keeps the noobs in line... as mcenroe said: 'commie bullshit'
What happens with this it's in the TD interest as they are able to use the top players name to sell more tickets even if there are less matches in the tournament. The excuse is used that the big names will cover this.

As for a free tour, well I don't totally agree the Slams and TMS events should be compulsory, after that then that's fine. Though there should be a ranking system where every result counts, but nothing is perfect

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This. It's not about increasing CH prize-money, sponsors wouldn't be able to support it. This is business, remember. I think we need a lot of 30K and 50K, for the guys coming from Futures, but less points for this, around 55 for a victory. Then, 125K, with 100 points, would really be the only appealing ones for low Top-100 guys, making them much more competitive. They almost wouldn' t play 30k, since qualy+atp250 QF would mean the same , and a possible SF would Be Much better than victory At 30K.. So, we Would have low CH for new comers and Top 100-200, and big competitive challengers for low Top-100. This would probably solve, I think, the current problems of ATP points system, and we would end up having more big CH, because the better draws would attract decent sponsors.
The money hasn't been increased for years, when there has been a massive increase in revenue for the ATP. This won't happen now with the global economic problems and tennis more so at the lower level has suffered because of this.

30K is too low, the bottom level should be 50k, as I said before the ATP didn't think about the points distribution.

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good post... is very simple what you write... food for thought...

maybe just need to have 3 or 4 catergories of challenger... two high grade challengers (125K @ 100pts + 100K @ 90pts), two low grade stepping stone challengers (50K @ 55pts + 35K @ 45pts)...cut out the ones in between 50K and 100K...
The 75k challengers are the South American Petrobras Series, if they didn't exist then a lot of South American players wouldn't have made it out due to the expenses. It was run by Ericsson before and now they have Petrobras as sponsors. It's not an easy thing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 04-20-2011, 01:20 AM   #102
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

James Blake is a perfect example nowadays
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:43 AM   #103
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

basically you got to pick one of these 2: being one of the best of the 2nd row of players or being one of the worst of the 1st row of players.

Tough call some players have to make (id pick the 2nd one)
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:48 AM   #104
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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Old 04-20-2011, 10:23 AM   #105
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Default Re: The dilemma of being too good for challengers and not good enough at the ATP leve

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This. It's not about increasing CH prize-money, sponsors wouldn't be able to support it. This is business, remember. I think we need a lot of 30K and 50K, for the guys coming from Futures, but less points for this, around 55 for a victory. Then, 125K, with 100 points, would really be the only appealing ones for low Top-100 guys, making them much more competitive. They almost wouldn' t play 30k, since qualy+atp250 QF would mean the same , and a possible SF would Be Much better than victory At 30K.. So, we Would have low CH for new comers and Top 100-200, and big competitive challengers for low Top-100. This would probably solve, I think, the current problems of ATP points system, and we would end up having more big CH, because the better draws would attract decent sponsors.

By the way, I forgot, great thread Filo V.
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