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Old 03-26-2011, 07:38 PM   #211
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Default Re: Libya/Egypt/Syria/bahrain/Jordan - middle east Mayham

Great post peribsen

We'll have to agree to disagree on the freedom front
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Old 03-26-2011, 10:24 PM   #212
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Default Re: Libya/Egypt/Syria/bahrain/Jordan - middle east Mayham

Assad blaming the Palestinians for the events in Syria. That's news, I thought Israel was at fault a few days ago.

Al Jazeera very quiet about it all.
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:53 AM   #213
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Default Re: Libya/Egypt/Syria/bahrain/Jordan - middle east Mayham

Supporting the children of Omar Mukhtar

Western intervention in Libya marks a difficult moment in Arab history as empowerment is overwhelmed by helplessness.

keep reading here http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...831413805.html
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:00 AM   #214
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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Originally Posted by peribsen View Post
We have no right to be involved in Libya in order to install our idea of democracy, only to aid Libyans who want reform and avoid their being physically exterminated by a violent tyrant. But just what exactly is the extent and the sort of reform they want is something that only Libyans can settle.
what makes you think that a majority of libyans actually want your help? this idea of the great western saviours coming in their high white horses to rescue the unfortunate poor has got to go out of the window when the help hasn't been truly asked by a considerably group of people representing the nation.

more over, what makes you think that western help is the best for lybia's future? in this point, i'd recommend reading the al-jazeera op-ed in the post above.

finally, what makes you think that the west won't try to impose their values and obtain some monetary benefit from the invasion? if anything, past history doesn't show that.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:05 AM   #215
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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Quite another thing is whether the European public opinion will be able or willing to force its leaders to keep supporting true change in the Maghrib, or whether, once forced to interfere, those leaders will resume playing their old games. While that risk is certainly there and is even likely, the fault will not lie with the fact that for once we stood on the right side of this struggle, but with our resolve (by 'our' I mean us citizens) to demand a true change in how our countries have dealt with third world affairs for much too long.

One can only hope.
a true change would be to leave the third world alone. just let it be alone with their own problems and their own successes and mind your own business. to think that you've got the moral highground to decide when a country needs to be intervened and when it can't is simply wrong. this type of paternalist and condescending attitude of the rich nations towards the third world is part of the problem, not the solution.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:15 AM   #216
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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a true change would be to leave the third world alone. just let it be alone with their own problems and their own successes and mind your own business. to think that you've got the moral highground to decide when a country needs to be intervened and when it can't is simply wrong. this type of paternalist and condescending attitude of the rich nations towards the third world is part of the problem, not the solution.
I tend to agree.

However, it seems almost a lose/lose situation in Libya. If the U.S. and Europe stand by and allow the rebels to be crushed, they are regarded as hypocrites greedy for oil and if they intervene they are imperialists.

It's like Rwanda -- that was clearly an internal issue, but should the world have stood by and let it happen? Ditto the Sudan.

While your idea appeals to me, I see the fallacies in it as well.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:16 AM   #217
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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Why the focus on Lybia of all countries with dictators?
westerners like to think they've got a free media when in point of fact the mainstream media is mostly tied to the interests of their governments.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:18 AM   #218
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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westerners like to think they've got a free media when in point of fact the mainstream media is mostly tied to the interests of their governments.
Mostly to the interests of business.

Probly we are saying the same thing.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:18 AM   #219
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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That's very interesting. Please tell us more about this western conspiracy.

How are they being paid? Who is paying them? How did this come to your attention? Why does the west want to invade Libya? Are the protesters in other arab countries also being paid by the west?
no-one is paying the protestors. obviously gadaffi is a terrible leader and he has his deserved detractors. that doesn't mean that every detractor wants the west to intervene, of course.
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:20 AM   #220
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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Mostly to the interests of business.

Probly we are saying the same thing.
well, in light of the millionary contracts the us government has secured with some multinational oil companies, arms companies, mercenaries' companies and construction companies in iraq, we probably are.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:11 AM   #221
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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what makes you think that a majority of libyans actually want your help? this idea of the great western saviours coming in their high white horses to rescue the unfortunate poor has got to go out of the window when the help hasn't been truly asked by a considerably group of people representing the nation.

more over, what makes you think that western help is the best for lybia's future? in this point, i'd recommend reading the al-jazeera op-ed in the post above.

finally, what makes you think that the west won't try to impose their values and obtain some monetary benefit from the invasion? if anything, past history doesn't show that.
When you are bombarded with rockets, you don't give a flying fuck who helps you, as long as somebody does.

Again, I'll ask you something I've heard before, what if the west hasn't interfered, and Kadaffi would have caused a masacure, killing not a 100 people, but 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Would you still think the west should sit by? Tell me, what would have been your breaking point?
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Old 03-27-2011, 04:44 AM   #222
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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When you are bombarded with rockets, you don't give a flying fuck who helps you, as long as somebody does.

Again, I'll ask you something I've heard before, what if the west hasn't interfered, and Kadaffi would have caused a masacure, killing not a 100 people, but 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Would you still think the west should sit by? Tell me, what would have been your breaking point?
i do think acts of genocide (like rwanda in the nineties, when no-one in the west gave a crap) should be stopped by any means possible. however, while the political repression in libya is awful, it hasn't been nearly as bad as the main western media outlets would like you to believe. remember that the gaddafi regime has been going on for decades and all of a sudden all you hear in tv and the radio is how bad the man is. any reasonable person would figure that there's a deliberate campaign of attack towards gaddafi that didn't exist before simply because the relationship with the western countries has changed.

now, if the gadaffi regime has existed for so many years and just recently massive protests have appeared to a large scale, then i'm sure the definitive ending depends on the people itself. if the libyans want gadaffi out, they'll manage to do it. there are many means to achieve that end. they're the people and they as a whole -not the gvt or the army- can stop them if they coordinate and demand a change. it happened in egypt, it happened in tunisia, why can the western countries let it happen in libya as well? the answer is simple and is directly related to their own selfish interests.

again, this should be clear and simple to anyone who has seen the news of the past invasions of foreign nations by the big countries in the west. this will sound somewhat insulting but i've got to be honest and say that i'm quite surprised at how naive a lot of westerners are. by 'westerns', i mean the people of course, i mean most of you, because your governments and the people in charge certainly know well what they're doing and what they want to achieve.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:51 AM   #223
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Default Re: Libya/Egypt/Syria/bahrain/Jordan - middle east Mayham

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Muammar Gaddafi has no similarities with such tyrants as Hitler or Stalin. The future of Libya should be decided by Libyan people. As we see, the international community has made great efforts since the Libyan crisis started. The representatives of Libyan government have agreed to cease fire during the talk launched by the African Union. We all hope the Libyan situation can be eased by peaceful negotiations.
However, some colonial powers are still imposing war on Libya. They have been continuously bombing non-military facilities and killing innocent civilians in the name of protecting Libyan people. But the civilians they claim to protect are actually anti-government forces. Up to now, the military attacking has made the death toll rise to 114, causing severe humanitarian catastrophe.
Exactly.

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Fascism is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Complete opposite of people being able to freely choose their political leaders
Exactly your kind of thing.

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I don't think that's true. What all human beings want is to be safe from oppression, but that is not exactly the same thing. Nobody wants a tyrant who abuses and terrorises you or your kin and strips your country of its wealth. But to presume that means that everybody desires Western-style democracy (far less its sudden arrival out of nowhere) is a pretty arrogant Western idea that has been repeatedly disproved. Many people in non-Western societies would be content enough to be ruled by a fatherly-figure, strict without being cruel, and only mildly corrupt. That is not to mean they don't desire further freedoms, it only means that they prefer less freedom within a system that respects their ways and culture rather than more freedom under a system that is alien to that culture.

We have no right to be involved in Libya in order to install our idea of democracy, only to aid Libyans who want reform and avoid their being physically exterminated by a violent tyrant. But just what exactly is the extent and the sort of reform they want is something that only Libyans can settle.

I don't think anybody, neither in Libya nor in the Arab world, nor even in the West, wants another Iraq-style fiasco. If the West only cared about oil in this case, it only had to wait a couple of weeks until Gaddafi stamped out the revolt with an iron fist. Dear old Muammar has proven his willingness to keep Europe's oil and gasoduts well furnished as long as the money keeps coming into his bank account. No need for bombs to getour share of his energy resources. Bussiness as usual.

What's is striking in this case is that -in sharp contrast to Iraq- the case for intervention hasn't come from the top down, no need for invented excuses and months of spin and propaganda, in this case rather the opposite has happened. Sarkozy in particular -ever the populist and the opportunist- has cynically jumped at the chance to take the lead of a public opinion over most of Europe that was shocked by the passiveness and the lack of empathy with which Western leaders were reacting to popular revolts in the ME. Don't know about what went on elsewhere, but the press of both countries I usually read (Spain and UK) had for weeks been full to the brim of articles, editorials and letters scorning the West for its hypocresy and its lack of resolve, an opinion that was particularly widespread among European citizens/residents of North African heritage. Obama's almost immediate back-peddling, Berlusconi's at best halfhearted approach and Merkel's pettyness would stand against any wider Western conspiracy, as would the fact of France's initial extremely poor response to the crisis in Tunisia -trying to be forgiven for that goes a long way into explaining Sarkozy's sudden rush to make the frontpages in this issue-.

Quite another thing is whether the European public opinion will be able or willing to force its leaders to keep supporting true change in the Maghrib, or whether, once forced to interfere, those leaders will resume playing their old games. While that risk is certainly there and is even likely, the fault will not lie with the fact that for once we stood on the right side of this struggle, but with our resolve (by 'our' I mean us citizens) to demand a true change in how our countries have dealt with third world affairs for much too long.

One can only hope.
Your assumption about liberty is appalling. The myth of personal liberty as a paramount value of western civilisation was a creation from liberal thinkers, closely associated with the ascension of the bourgeoisie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
what makes you think that a majority of libyans actually want your help? this idea of the great western saviours coming in their high white horses to rescue the unfortunate poor has got to go out of the window when the help hasn't been truly asked by a considerably group of people representing the nation.

more over, what makes you think that western help is the best for lybia's future? in this point, i'd recommend reading the al-jazeera op-ed in the post above.

finally, what makes you think that the west won't try to impose their values and obtain some monetary benefit from the invasion? if anything, past history doesn't show that.
All true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
a true change would be to leave the third world alone. just let it be alone with their own problems and their own successes and mind your own business. to think that you've got the moral highground to decide when a country needs to be intervened and when it can't is simply wrong. this type of paternalist and condescending attitude of the rich nations towards the third world is part of the problem, not the solution.
Won't happen.

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Originally Posted by star View Post
I tend to agree.

However, it seems almost a lose/lose situation in Libya. If the U.S. and Europe stand by and allow the rebels to be crushed, they are regarded as hypocrites greedy for oil and if they intervene they are imperialists.

It's like Rwanda -- that was clearly an internal issue, but should the world have stood by and let it happen? Ditto the Sudan.

While your idea appeals to me, I see the fallacies in it as well.
The Rwandan story is a bit different. African tribal wars are related intimately to the way the western colonial powers divided their colonial possessions.

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
westerners like to think they've got a free media when in point of fact the mainstream media is mostly tied to the interests of their governments.
See below.

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Originally Posted by star View Post
Mostly to the interests of business.

Probly we are saying the same thing.
Yep!

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
no-one is paying the protestors. obviously gadaffi is a terrible leader and he has his deserved detractors. that doesn't mean that every detractor wants the west to intervene, of course.
Yeah, their weapons were built from scratch. Of course they're financed by the west.

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Originally Posted by Or Levy View Post
When you are bombarded with rockets, you don't give a flying fuck who helps you, as long as somebody does.

Again, I'll ask you something I've heard before, what if the west hasn't interfered, and Kadaffi would have caused a masacure, killing not a 100 people, but 1000, 10,000, 100,000? Would you still think the west should sit by? Tell me, what would have been your breaking point?
Hypocrisy. Do you have an idea of how many people died in Chile, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil during the 60s, 70s and 80s? The world powers never cared about them being tortured, ***** and massacred by sadist dictatorships. Why do they care now?
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:57 AM   #224
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Default Re: Libya/Egypt/Syria/bahrain/Jordan - middle east Mayham

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Exactly your kind of thing.
Nope. Exactly Gadaffi and every other dictator's sort of thing. Fascism and democracy/personal liberty don't go together
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:18 PM   #225
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Default Re: Question - what should the world do about the situation in Libya?

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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
a true change would be to leave the third world alone. just let it be alone with their own problems and their own successes and mind your own business. to think that you've got the moral highground to decide when a country needs to be intervened and when it can't is simply wrong. this type of paternalist and condescending attitude of the rich nations towards the third world is part of the problem, not the solution.
But the West is involved anyway. It made big business with Gaddafi and sold him all the weapons, he now uses against his People.

I think it would even be more hypocrite to first sell the weapons that provide him all the power he now has, and then let him slaughter the people like he pleases. Basically I like to simplify it as follows: one big Clan (Gaddafis) took the power and got rich by taking the countries oil. then they bought weapons and mercenaries from other countries to keep the power, and now it should be the right thing to just watch and say, let the Libyans take care of their own things we have nothing to do with it?

Gaddafi would already be gone if there was no West.
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