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View Poll Results: Who is Greater??

Nadal 66 40.24%
Sampras 98 59.76%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-25-2006, 07:40 AM   #16
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Cool down man, the GOAT competition is a tough one.

It's mainly defined by slams. TMS fluctuate, change and disapear, so that doesn't count so much. Rafa has time, but GOAT is not about time only.

Who are in the GOAT league ?
Borg: 6 RG, 5 Wimbledons
Well, let Rafa win 6 RG, he'll be busy with that, then we'll see about the Wimby's...
Forget it.

Laver: 11 slams, 2 Grand Slams, including one open era GS.
The Grand Slam is the Holly Grail of men's tennis. Rafa doing the Grand Slam is almost impossible given his clay orientation, he would need a hell of an adaptation to do well on grass, difficult to do a great clay court season in these conditions, and he needs the clay points for his ranking.
Forget it.

Sampras: 14 slams, 6 years as number 1. Sampras was very lucky not to get any major injury in his long and successful career. His game evolved to serve and volley, and his serve alone allowed him to preserve his body by shortening points in the second part of his career. Quite the opposite of Rafa's grinding and contorsioning type of game. Plus the 7 Wimby's set is something very prestigious Rafa can only dream of.
Forget it.

Federer is trying to join GOAT league and you know what ? He's dominating on hard and grass, is second on clay and has won 7 slam finals on 7.
Give Rafa some time to do something similar, but he will need a few years.
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Old 04-25-2006, 08:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Rainbow
Lately we have seen many threads debating wether Federer or Sampras is the greatest payer ever. It has been pointed out how similar the two players are statwise at a certain juncture in their career.

It lately struck me just how much ahead Nadal is of both Sampras and Federer as a teenager. Here's to put things into perspective.
Nadal has now won..

14 titles - well ahead of the likes of Rafter, Mecir and Ferrero, trailing players like Safin and Rosset by only 1 title.

5 TMS events - just insane for a teenager, already 6th on the all-time list.

a lone slam. But neither Sampras nor Federer did better as a teen.

The sole reason Nadal hasn't been number one yet is because there is a certain Swiss powerhouse in the game. Yet Nadal finished 2005 with a ranking point total which would have seen him as #1 each but one year between 1997 and 2003.

Nadal obviously posted most of his results on clay, but he has proven he can win on other surfaces too, with masters shields on carpet and hard court. In a way you can picture Nadal as an inverse Sampras. Rafa has clay as his base, can play well on carpet and hard courts too, but has one surface which might become an eternal problem... grass. It will be very interesting to see if Nadal can adept his game to become a force on grass too and if he manages to prevent the mid twenties burnout which seems to be common among clay court specialists these days.
This is a little ridiculous. Nadal is a great champion, supreme on the clay, but not in the same league as a Federer, Sampras, Borg or Laver.
Comparisons between Federer and Sampras I believe are absolutely correct and justified. The one thing that will put Federer ahead of Sampras is a French Open title which he is planning to peak for this year.
Right now I think it is best to think of Nadal as a "souped-up" Muster. The kid has got great wheels, great strokes and a very strong mind and will. He could continue to frustrate Federer on clay and occasionally on hardcourts or carpet, but he can't ever come near to the Grand Slam records of Federer and the aforementioned all-time greats.
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Old 04-25-2006, 11:00 AM   #18
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Castafiore
This is - at least as far as I am concerned - not at all a GOAT discussion (because for me, it's utterly ridiculous to do that at this point) but simply the observation that his accomplisments at his age are remarkable. Nothing more, nothing less. What's the problem with that?
As a Rafa fan, what he has done so far impresses me a lot but he needs to do more on various surfaces before we can start about the GOAT thing. A lot can happen over the years.
There's nothing wrong with it, but when the poster says "but with Nadal's results he is well on his way to immortality" to me that means the point of this thread was to put him up there as possibly the GOAT. All I'm saying is it's ridiculous to think about that when he's only 19. His accomplishments are VERY impressive especially for his age, but lets wait and see where he's at 3-5 years from now.
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Old 04-25-2006, 02:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLICK
This is a little ridiculous. Nadal is a great champion, supreme on the clay, but not in the same league as a Federer, Sampras, Borg or Laver.
Comparisons between Federer and Sampras I believe are absolutely correct and justified. The one thing that will put Federer ahead of Sampras is a French Open title which he is planning to peak for this year.
Right now I think it is best to think of Nadal as a "souped-up" Muster. The kid has got great wheels, great strokes and a very strong mind and will. He could continue to frustrate Federer on clay and occasionally on hardcourts or carpet, but he can't ever come near to the Grand Slam records of Federer and the aforementioned all-time greats.
I am not saying Nadal is necessarily on his way to being goat. As I said before, it's way to early to tell. What I want to prove with this stats is that Nadal is much further in career accomplishments then Federer and Sampras were at similar age. Nadals career achievements roughly equal those of Marat Safin and Juan Carlos Ferrero already.
I like stats, numbers and records, that's why I brought this subject up. I am a Federer fan, but I am definitely not blind for the achievements of others.
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Old 04-25-2006, 02:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirkaland
There's nothing wrong with it, but when the poster says "but with Nadal's results he is well on his way to immortality" to me that means the point of this thread was to put him up there as possibly the GOAT. All I'm saying is it's ridiculous to think about that when he's only 19. His accomplishments are VERY impressive especially for his age, but lets wait and see where he's at 3-5 years from now.
There's quite a difference between immortalily and goat. I think if Nadal were to retire today, he would have achieved immortality already. People will recall him forever as a player that could have been so great.
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Old 04-25-2006, 02:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Impossible to say now, his status in history depends on slams. He's got one slam and nobody knows how many more he could pile up.
A good record would be 5 Roland Garros to start with, but it's already huge given his relative physical fragility.
Maybe 1 or 2 AO.
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Old 04-25-2006, 06:12 PM   #22
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Rainbow
There's quite a difference between immortalily and goat. I think if Nadal were to retire today, he would have achieved immortality already. People will recall him forever as a player that could have been so great.
I'm not arguing that he'll be remembered as a great tennis player. But he's only 19 and none of us know what will happen in the next 3-5 years. I just don't see the point in talking about how someone will be remembered in historical terms when they're so young and at the beginning of their carrer.
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Old 04-25-2006, 06:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirkaland
I'm not arguing that he'll be remembered as a great tennis player. But he's only 19 and none of us know what will happen in the next 3-5 years. I just don't see the point in talking about how someone will be remembered in historical terms when they're so young and at the beginning of their carrer.

Agree............... Give Nadal some more time.............. People were saying the same thing about Hewitt a couple years ago........
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Good point, yet Federer is still a great sportsman.
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:05 AM   #25
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
I'm not arguing that he'll be remembered as a great tennis player. But he's only 19 and none of us know what will happen in the next 3-5 years. I just don't see the point in talking about how someone will be remembered in historical terms when they're so young and at the beginning of their carrer.
I hate it when people think that just, because Nadal is 19 he still has lots of room for improvement, because infact I think Federer still has greater room for improvement at 24 than Nadal.

Hewitt, who may have peaked in 2004-2005, did not improve greatly from the age of 20 to 25. Roddick did not improve much from the age of 20-23. Now compare that with the huge strides that Ljubicic and Blake both made at 25. We can never know how much work a professional player is truly putting in his game and how much they can improve if they really tried. Agassi went from being a 'haircut and a forehand' to the guy with arguably the best backhand on tour. Only time will tell, which player has has yet to reach their peak.
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:20 AM   #26
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

It's great to see a Federer vs Nadal in clay, both are the seeds 1 and 2, so they can only play against each other in finals.

It would be great to see Federer vs Nadal in grass. But that won't happen in the next years. Why? Because Nadal needs a miracle to get into a grass final...

Conclusion:

Federer's worst surface is clay: He's the 2nd best player there.

Nadal's worst surface is grass: He doesn't even belong in the top 20 in this surface.

Federer > Nadal
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:22 AM   #27
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpool4ever
I hate it when people think that just, because Nadal is 19 he still has lots of room for improvement, because infact I think Federer still has greater room for improvement at 24 than Nadal.

Hewitt, who may have peaked in 2004-2005, did not improve greatly from the age of 20 to 25. Roddick did not improve much from the age of 20-23. Now compare that with the huge strides that Ljubicic and Blake both made at 25. We can never know how much work a professional player is truly putting in his game and how much they can improve if they really tried. Agassi went from being a 'haircut and a forehand' to the guy with arguably the best backhand on tour. Only time will tell, which player has has yet to reach their peak.
It seems that your second paragraph contradicts the first. Given your evidence in the second paragraph how do you conclude that "Federer still has greater room for improvement than Nadal"?
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:23 AM   #28
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpool4ever
I hate it when people think that just, because Nadal is 19 he still has lots of room for improvement, because infact I think Federer still has greater room for improvement at 24 than Nadal.

Hewitt, who may have peaked in 2004-2005, did not improve greatly from the age of 20 to 25. Roddick did not improve much from the age of 20-23. Now compare that with the huge strides that Ljubicic and Blake both made at 25. We can never know how much work a professional player is truly putting in his game and how much they can improve if they really tried. Agassi went from being a 'haircut and a forehand' to the guy with arguably the best backhand on tour. Only time will tell, which player has has yet to reach their peak.
I agree with your general sentiments, but in Rafa's case, I think a lot of people believe he will get better because till now, most of his important results have been on clay. Consider that at 3 of the 4 slams, he has never advanced beyond the 4th round. He has the athleticism and mental fortitude already, and seems very determined to improve on his weaker surfaces, so I think it's definitely possible for him to get better.

Will he be able to do it? Time will tell. I think there's no doubt that he's got room for improvement, but there's just no way of knowing if that's going to mean making a couple of runs deep here and there or consistently being a threat on all surfaces. I think the fact that he's already broken all sorts of records at such a young age is what makes people believe that he can do it.
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Old 04-26-2006, 01:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Quote:
It seems that your second paragraph contradicts the first. Given your evidence in the second paragraph how do you conclude that "Federer still has greater room for improvement than Nadal"?
My second paragraph does not seem to contradict the first in my opinion. My first paragraph suggest that I feel Federer has greater improvements in him than Nadal despite the age difference. Whilst my second paragraph shows examples of players that have improved greatly at an older age.

[/quote]I agree with your general sentiments, but in Rafa's case, I think a lot of people believe he will get better because till now, most of his important results have been on clay. Consider that at 3 of the 4 slams, he has never advanced beyond the 4th round. He has the athleticism and mental fortitude already, and seems very determined to improve on his weaker surfaces, so I think it's definitely possible for him to get better[quote]

I definitely think that Nadal will have better results at the slams than last year, but I don't it's because he improved as a player, but rather due to him being unlucky the previous year. Last year he was unfortunate to run into two players on fire that have the perfect game to beat him on a fast surface. When I see Nadal this year I see a player that has improved his touch at the net and a slightly better serve. When I look at Federer I see a player, who also has improved his volleys, improved his backhand drop shot, improved his second serve and his backhand overall. This and perhaps some bias in my support for Federer lends me to think that he just might have even more improvements in store.
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:00 AM   #30
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Default Re: Forget the Federer-Sampras comparisons, here's Nadal!

Nadal is good, especially on clay, but talent wise he's not greater then Federer or Sampras and I don't think he will ever be.

Federer is the best on every surface but clay and is second best on clay. Nadal is best on clay and other surfaces he's good but not as good as Federer or some other players.

Physically I don't think Nadal will last as long as Federer and I think Federer is going to improve while Nadal will improve, I don't think he's going to become as good as people think he is or he will become that much better.

Federer has a good chance to break Pete's record and becoming the greatest player of all time, Nadal will never be as dominate as Federer and while the FO is great, Wimby is the biggest one of them all and is recongized as the Superbowl of tennis!
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