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Old 01-10-2011, 03:19 PM   #31
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
Which leaves what? The major network news that most people see (CBS in particular) are far more biased than CNN or Fox. There is an unbreakable entrenchment of left-wing bias there. Couric in particular now. The report they did on the shooting, even when it was clear that he wasn't a tea party type, was entirely about Sarah Palin being responsible. The internet is sadly the only place to get the right information.
What people seem to be looking for in news is "opinion." You don't have to get news from television. I don't watch any television news at all. It's all very bad and getting worse. I think that news organizations have so much pressure to be "up to the second" with their reporting that they don't have enough time to do a good job and certainly not the staff they need to do a good job.

But, unless we stop watching, they are going to keep doing the same thing. I haven't watched television news for 10 years at least. I stopped when I could no longer take people yelling and sneering at one another. This is not intelligent discourse, it is simply scoring points. Politics should not be a sporting event, and sadly that's how it's presented. It's not cute to talk about reloading and firing again. It's not cute to say you bring a club and we'll bring a gun. So, if they won't be adult, we must be.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:21 PM   #32
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Well actually the PDF has stats on victims of gun violence and whites come in slightly lower than Asians (and American Indians). Info on perpetrators of gun violence doesn't include Asians in that file. You're right, though. I wasn't 100% politically correct. How dare me.
I thought Asians came in under european americans as victims. But I may have read it differently.

It wasn't that you weren't "politically correct." You simply weren't correct.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Where did I say that? I think the rhetoric is very heated and has been since the Iraq war began.



He absolutely has a right to his opinion. I don't even have a problem with him expressing it. I do, however, have a problem with him not disclosing it as an opinion when he's acting in his official capacity. Because of his involvement with the investigation, when he says that heated rhetoric or political ideology played a part in this tragedy it implies that he has evidence suggesting that this is the case. However, as he reluctantly admits in this interview, there is no evidence to support this claim. He is simply misleading the public. Then he goes ahead and blames Republicans. Of course that's going to inflame tensions, and he's doing so even though he knows full well there is no evidence to support his claim.



I tend to agree with you regarding controversy benefiting the cable networks. However, Megyn Kelley did a great job here. It's a journalist's job to distinguish between fact and opinion, so if Fox is going to report that the sheriff thinks heated rhetoric and ideology played a role then it's also their job to determine whether this is fact or just his opinion. Did she do this because she's a good journalist or because of conservative bias? We can only speculate.

So what if there's heated rhetoric in Arizona? This guy chose to attack the victims. The blame lies squarely with him. I don't blame Al Gore for the attack on the Discovery Channel's office, either. People have the right to say whatever they want. They do not have the right to shoot whomever they want.

Free speech, including heated rhetoric, plays an extremely important part in a democracy. This type of rhetoric gets people fired up and involved. Yes, oftentimes it's hyperbole, but even hyperbole serves a purpose, as any literary critic will tell you. It makes the point abundantly clear. In a democracy, change can only happen when the people are involved in the political process. Free speech is how this happens. The civil rights movement and even the American revolution itself are perfect examples of this, and there are plenty more.



Agreed.
Yes, I agree that free speech is important. I also believe responsiblity is important. Responsible free speech is what should be the goal.

Churchill certainly inspired the British with his speechs and I suppose that some of them contained some hyperbole.

I think the recent fashion of calling whole nations, religions, and peoples evil is more than just hyperbole. It is irresponsible. There is other language that can be even more descriptive and more to the point rather than fear mongering. I think fear mongering is irresponsible no matter who does it. I also think that propaganda and falsehoods (a different kind of hyperbole, if you will) are reprehensible. I also think that deliniating a certain segment of the population of this country as enemies is reprehensible. No matter how distasteful I find Sarah Palin, I don't want to put her in gunsights. I don't want to take aim at her, or if I miss to reload. There is leadership and there is pandering.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:34 PM   #34
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

This incident is a clear example why I distrust the media so much. That means everybody from Fox on up to CNN and the NYT. They're all pushing a political agenda; they are the ones who have charged up the incendiary political rhetoric. The fact that so-called trustworthy news sources have actually tried to blame Palin or the Tea Party for this Communist Manifesto-reading nutjob's behavior is one reason why this country has lost its collective mind. For them to have instantly politicized this incident, without any proof as to what his motive was, was irresponsible journalism. We need more of Jon Stewart's Rally for Sanity talk.

The guy who shot Ms. Giffords was a plain old, garden-variety lunatic looking for his fifteen minutes of fame. Sometimes I wonder if people like him would exist if the media didn't give him the infamy he sought?
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:32 PM   #35
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

I don't care if the shooter's favorite book is Horton Hears a Who (his book list seems like a young person's idea of impressive more than a real list). Palin is not unconnected, because her casually violent rhetoric permeates the entire political atmosphere, in forsaken Arizona more than most places in the US.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:41 PM   #36
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Chip_s_m View Post
So what if there's heated rhetoric in Arizona? This guy chose to attack the victims. The blame lies squarely with him. I don't blame Al Gore for the attack on the Discovery Channel's office, either. People have the right to say whatever they want. They do not have the right to shoot whomever they want.

Free speech, including heated rhetoric, plays an extremely important part in a democracy. This type of rhetoric gets people fired up and involved. Yes, oftentimes it's hyperbole, but even hyperbole serves a purpose, as any literary critic will tell you. It makes the point abundantly clear. In a democracy, change can only happen when the people are involved in the political process. Free speech is how this happens. The civil rights movement and even the American revolution itself are perfect examples of this, and there are plenty more.
I agree with your main point - free speech is a cornerstone of democracy, and there's nothing wrong with hyperbole. But there is a problem with lying, smearing, and basically saying anything to promote your own narrow interest and pander to increasingly segregated sub-groups of the population who never need to think, debate, or question anything because they've already figured everything out and the world is always black and white, never shades of gray. This is a far faster growing demographic of the American electorate than the Latino population.

The major problem for me goes back to the old saying "you have the right to your own opinion but not your own facts." Much of the "free speech" these days in politics are simply lies, and those saying them know that. But there are no consequences to acting this way - only rewards. Since the average voter spends far less time discussing and/or following politics than watching American Idol, the politicians know that the more a lie is told, the more people will believe them, and the louder and more controversial you are, the more likely they are to hear your message. Helping this along - take your pick of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter, Keith Olbermann, or blogs such as restate.com and dailykos.com - everything they say has to fit into a narrow worldview they are promoting and which has turned them all into millionaires. Facts and real debate are the least of their worries - they barely know the basics about 75% of what they are talking about. To me, this is not a recipe for effective and healthy long-term political debate. Sure it isn't solely responsible for the decision of one lunatic to shoot a public servant. But it doesn't help the situation either.

And just to mention something else - the more central money continues to become to politics and campaigning (in the age of the endless, $1 billion campaign), the more necessary it becomes to continually "fire everyone up." This is of course not done through informed discussion, but through statements and actions that ensure that there is constant conflict and that keeps people angry. And this is far more prevalent in the Republican party today than the Democratic party. The moderate Republican is virtually extinct - how Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe are still Republicans is beyond me. And moving to Arizona itself, take a look at the transformation of John McCain over the last 5 years. He's gone from elder statesmen to irrelevant demagogue. This is due of course to the rise of Sarah Palin and the Tea Party, and their continued "free speech" will only continue this trend. And frankly in my opinion they will never be nearly as effective at governing than at being a protest movement, because they are much better designed to be latter than the former. If I were a Republican, this would worry me - Newt Gingrich didn't work out the first time.
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:11 AM   #37
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

I am glad that Jared Loughner plea guilty to all his charges. The victims' families are spared of the probably long drawn court battle and are able to put a closure to that tragic part of their lives.
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