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Old 01-10-2011, 01:44 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by out_here_grindin View Post
As usual people are once again fascinating by the killer. Finger pointing and blaming all round. Meanwhile a woman lies dead.
Which woman are you referring to? Giffords is not dead, but 6 other people are.
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:57 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
Conservative press? Now that is comedy. It's the information age. His youtube and facebook among other things have all been copied and widely distributed. All of his fellow students and teachers identified him as ranting leftist. He posted pictures of Marx, Mao and Cesar Chavez all over his site.

He rants about the "racist" tea party and supports Obama. So you hold Obama responsible as people seem to want to do Palin if someone who calls himself her supporter does something stupid.

But let the revisionism begin.
Yeah and that's why he shot a democrat congresswoman.

This is the conservative press talking.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:10 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Chip_s_m View Post
I don't know which interview you saw. I'm sure he's done a bunch. In the one I saw Megyn Kelley pretty much took him to town for politicizing this:



The sheriff decries the heated political rhetoric, but when pressed admits that he has no evidence to suggest that the gunman was influenced by it, even admitting that it's only his speculative opinion. Then he goes off whining about how Republicans "blocked" Democrats from "improving" this country (again, his opinion). The sheriff, like everyone else, needs to stick to what we know. The gunman was almost certainly disturbed and for reasons that are unclear at this point targeted this woman. We don't know if his political ideology had anything to do with it, and even if it did it's not even clear what his political ideology was.

We certainly can (and should) debate that, but the sheriff should recognize that he is going to be viewed as an authority on this crime and what the gunman's motivations are. Unless he has evidence that the heated rhetoric and the gunman's political ideology had anything to do with this incident then he shouldn't be injecting his personal opinion because the public is going to interpret it as fact due to his position. All he's done is to inflame the political tensions.
I did not say he was right in saying what he said during the press conferences. I said I agreed with his view that the gun law is too lax in Arizona and the political climate is poison. Yes, he should keep his opinions to himself but one of his good friends (Judge John Roll) was killed and another one (Congresswoman Giffords) was critically injured. He is a human being with feelings, unlike the gunman.
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:57 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

That Sheriff was already well-known for his partisan politics before the shooting. The people making him out to be some kind of voice of truth are just plain idiots. The guy needs to be focused on how this happened in his jurisdiction and obtaining all facts about any other people being involved. He doesn't need to be airing his politics on news shows. He's Nifong with a badge.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Chip_s_m View Post
I'm not sure what his race has to do with this. Nevertheless, white Americans actually commit acts of gun violence at considerably lower rates than Americans of other races. They're also less likely to be victims of gun violence.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=570
That site didn't reference Asian Americans. Do you really think gun violence is higher among Asian Americans than European Americans? Also nothing there to compare Pacific Islanders.

I think you mean lower gun violence rates than Hispanic or African Americans.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:23 AM   #21
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
That Sheriff was already well-known for his partisan politics before the shooting. The people making him out to be some kind of voice of truth are just plain idiots. The guy needs to be focused on how this happened in his jurisdiction and obtaining all facts about any other people being involved. He doesn't need to be airing his politics on news shows. He's Nifong with a badge.
I might have believed that if it wasn't coming from the right-wing nutjob that is you.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:30 AM   #22
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chip_s_m View Post
I don't know which interview you saw. I'm sure he's done a bunch. In the one I saw Megyn Kelley pretty much took him to town for politicizing this:



The sheriff decries the heated political rhetoric, but when pressed admits that he has no evidence to suggest that the gunman was influenced by it, even admitting that it's only his speculative opinion. Then he goes off whining about how Republicans "blocked" Democrats from "improving" this country (again, his opinion). The sheriff, like everyone else, needs to stick to what we know. The gunman was almost certainly disturbed and for reasons that are unclear at this point targeted this woman. We don't know if his political ideology had anything to do with it, and even if it did it's not even clear what his political ideology was.

We certainly can (and should) debate that, but the sheriff should recognize that he is going to be viewed as an authority on this crime and what the gunman's motivations are. Unless he has evidence that the heated rhetoric and the gunman's political ideology had anything to do with this incident then he shouldn't be injecting his personal opinion because the public is going to interpret it as fact due to his position. All he's done is to inflame the political tensions.
So are you saying there is no heated political rhetoric right now in the United States? Man, I wish I had your sense of what balanced, political debate is... In the last year a guy flew a plane into an IRS building, a mentally deranged guy takes hostages at the Discovery Channel, and now a member of Congress is shot - threats against members of Congress and the President are at an all-time high (according to the Secret Service, and up 300% since the Bush years), and millions tune in to watch Glenn Beck on a daily basis.

The sheriff has inflamed political tensions? Please - the only idiots who are turning his statement into another part of an ongoing political war are those who post at redstate.com and dailykos.com anyways, and who would find 1,000 ways of doing so with or without his statements. He has a right to his opinion, just like the Tea Party can issue a statement saying we should pray for Giffords even if she is a "liberal".

And I'm sorry but Dupnik isn't completely wrong. There IS plenty of heated rhetoric and political activism in Arizona. My parents live in Phoenix and I spend a lot of time there. In fact, a lot of the unfortunate rhetoric (and actions) come from another sheriff in the state - Joe Arpaio - whose actions are far, far more divisive than anything Dupnik said yesterday, and the current governor. The fact Fox News is all over this and trying to get him to retract what he's saying is obvious - they would go out of business if politics ever moved back to civil debate (as would MSNBC).

And to anyone on these boards trying to fix a political label to the killer based on what one youtube video says or what one of his former classmates said - get real. He wasn't liberal, leftist, marxist, conversative, facist, or a right-winger - he was simply a nutcase with so many ramblings no political framework could ever claim him.

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Old 01-10-2011, 04:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

We could all do a great deal to lower the temperature of political debate by simply refusing to watch outlets that engage in political baiting and polemics. I don't watch Fox or MSNBC. CNN has so trivialized itself that it is unwatchable. Too bad because once CNN was a great source of international news reporting.

Just say no.
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Old 01-10-2011, 04:47 AM   #24
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

Which leaves what? The major network news that most people see (CBS in particular) are far more biased than CNN or Fox. There is an unbreakable entrenchment of left-wing bias there. Couric in particular now. The report they did on the shooting, even when it was clear that he wasn't a tea party type, was entirely about Sarah Palin being responsible. The internet is sadly the only place to get the right information.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
Which leaves what? The major network news that most people see (CBS in particular) are far more biased than CNN or Fox. There is an unbreakable entrenchment of left-wing bias there. Couric in particular now. The report they did on the shooting, even when it was clear that he wasn't a tea party type, was entirely about Sarah Palin being responsible. The internet is sadly the only place to get the right information.
So just to be clear, you consider CBS to be more biased than Fox News? The same network created solely to advance a point of view with almost every major presumptive Republican candidate for 2012 on their payroll?

I do agree with you that the focus in the last few days has been too heavy on Palin. But her whole relationship with the media is more complex than simply being a consistent victim of bias from the major networks. Objectively, the worst possible case scenario for Sarah Palin would be for the mainstream media to stop covering her every tweet, speech, and policy pronouncement. She feeds off it, and it fuels her popularity on the right. It also helps keep her celebrity going - which is as important to her as any political aspirations at the moment. And honestly, whether its right or wrong, the fact she openly mocks the profession of journalism and refers to everyone bar Fox News as the "lamestream" media - well, that might explain why she's not necessarily the most popular politician in the United States with the scribes.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:42 AM   #26
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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That site didn't reference Asian Americans. Do you really think gun violence is higher among Asian Americans than European Americans? Also nothing there to compare Pacific Islanders.

I think you mean lower gun violence rates than Hispanic or African Americans.
Well actually the PDF has stats on victims of gun violence and whites come in slightly lower than Asians (and American Indians). Info on perpetrators of gun violence doesn't include Asians in that file. You're right, though. I wasn't 100% politically correct. How dare me.
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Old 01-10-2011, 06:47 AM   #27
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

Wow, definitely silly to debate politics or biases in a situation like this. Condolences go out to the families of the killed ones, including the 9(?) year-old girl (who had just made student council in her school class and wanted to be a politician one day), and I hope Giffords gets a warm reception if/when she returns to work.

Weird to see that the 9 year old girl was born on 9/11, BTW
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:05 AM   #28
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
Which leaves what? The major network news that most people see (CBS in particular) are far more biased than CNN or Fox. There is an unbreakable entrenchment of left-wing bias there. Couric in particular now. The report they did on the shooting, even when it was clear that he wasn't a tea party type, was entirely about Sarah Palin being responsible. The internet is sadly the only place to get the right information.
unbreakable entrenchment of left-wing bias

basically fox news is so terrible the right just accuses any other news source of being left-wing biased
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Old 01-10-2011, 07:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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So are you saying there is no heated political rhetoric right now in the United States? Man, I wish I had your sense of what balanced, political debate is... In the last year a guy flew a plane into an IRS building, a mentally deranged guy takes hostages at the Discovery Channel, and now a member of Congress is shot - threats against members of Congress and the President are at an all-time high (according to the Secret Service, and up 300% since the Bush years), and millions tune in to watch Glenn Beck on a daily basis.
Where did I say that? I think the rhetoric is very heated and has been since the Iraq war began.

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The sheriff has inflamed political tensions? Please - the only idiots who are turning his statement into another part of an ongoing political war are those who post at redstate.com and dailykos.com anyways, and who would find 1,000 ways of doing so with or without his statements. He has a right to his opinion, just like the Tea Party can issue a statement saying we should pray for Giffords even if she is a "liberal".
He absolutely has a right to his opinion. I don't even have a problem with him expressing it. I do, however, have a problem with him not disclosing it as an opinion when he's acting in his official capacity. Because of his involvement with the investigation, when he says that heated rhetoric or political ideology played a part in this tragedy it implies that he has evidence suggesting that this is the case. However, as he reluctantly admits in this interview, there is no evidence to support this claim. He is simply misleading the public. Then he goes ahead and blames Republicans. Of course that's going to inflame tensions, and he's doing so even though he knows full well there is no evidence to support his claim.

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And I'm sorry but Dupnik isn't completely wrong. There IS plenty of heated rhetoric and political activism in Arizona. My parents live in Phoenix and I spend a lot of time there. In fact, a lot of the unfortunate rhetoric (and actions) come from another sheriff in the state - Joe Arpaio - whose actions are far, far more divisive than anything Dupnik said yesterday, and the current governor. The fact Fox News is all over this and trying to get him to retract what he's saying is obvious - they would go out of business if politics ever moved back to civil debate (as would MSNBC).
I tend to agree with you regarding controversy benefiting the cable networks. However, Megyn Kelley did a great job here. It's a journalist's job to distinguish between fact and opinion, so if Fox is going to report that the sheriff thinks heated rhetoric and ideology played a role then it's also their job to determine whether this is fact or just his opinion. Did she do this because she's a good journalist or because of conservative bias? We can only speculate.

So what if there's heated rhetoric in Arizona? This guy chose to attack the victims. The blame lies squarely with him. I don't blame Al Gore for the attack on the Discovery Channel's office, either. People have the right to say whatever they want. They do not have the right to shoot whomever they want.

Free speech, including heated rhetoric, plays an extremely important part in a democracy. This type of rhetoric gets people fired up and involved. Yes, oftentimes it's hyperbole, but even hyperbole serves a purpose, as any literary critic will tell you. It makes the point abundantly clear. In a democracy, change can only happen when the people are involved in the political process. Free speech is how this happens. The civil rights movement and even the American revolution itself are perfect examples of this, and there are plenty more.

Quote:
And to anyone on these boards trying to fix a political label to the killer based on what one youtube video says or what one of his former classmates said - get real. He wasn't liberal, leftist, marxist, conversative, facist, or a right-winger - he was simply a nutcase with so many ramblings no political framework could ever claim him.
Agreed.
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Old 01-10-2011, 03:20 PM   #30
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Default Re: Dem Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot in the head

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And I'm sorry but Dupnik isn't completely wrong. There IS plenty of heated rhetoric and political activism in Arizona. My parents live in Phoenix and I spend a lot of time there. In fact, a lot of the unfortunate rhetoric (and actions) come from another sheriff in the state - Joe Arpaio - whose actions are far, far more divisive than anything Dupnik said yesterday, and the current governor. The fact Fox News is all over this and trying to get him to retract what he's saying is obvious - they would go out of business if politics ever moved back to civil debate (as would MSNBC).
I have the feeling that Dupnik was pointing to Joe Arpaio when he used the word 'bigotry'

@Chip_s_m: I believe we are not really differ in our opinions. It's just we have a slightly different view on how Dupnik conduct himself in the press conferences. But since you don't live in Phoenix and surrounding area under the power of Maricopa county sheriff Joe Arpaio, and under the state representatives in Arizona, you will never understand why me and ibreak4coffee tend to overlook the unprofessionalism of sheriff Dupnik conduct himself. I have been under the very unprofessionalism of Joe Arpaio for the last 9 years and he gets to keep voting back to office anyway............ mainly by the main stream Republicans and Sarah Palin supporters.

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