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Old 12-15-2010, 04:26 PM   #31
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazar View Post
changing the balls wasnt really tried that much as the manufacturers weren't too keen on it. the plan was to have 3 types of ball: a lighter one for clay, a slightly larger, heavier one for grass and a normal one for hard courts.

you say it used to be common knowledge and i agree that it was; however it wasn't common knowledge based on scientific fact, it was based on theory, which the itf have proven to be incorrect. i have tried pro supex blue gear and found it to give no more spin than any other polyester. the fact that people think] strings like that give more spin is because they are told they give more spin (its often written on the packaging) and therefore have no reason to doubt it. you could give an ordinary player two identical rackets, strung identically and tell them that one string will give them more spin than the other and the chances are, they will come back to you and agree. its all in the head.

the reason spaghetti stringing worked isnt because it is rough. heres what the itf say about it:

Spaghetti stringing is illegal because the main and cross strings are not interlaced (or bonded). Instead, the strings lie on parallel planes and are able to move with the aid of tubular sleeves, which act as bearings. The freedom of movement allows the strings to deflect within the plane of the hitting surface and so rotate the ball as they recoil. The result is that players can produce extreme spin with minimal effort.

so, more spin is generated because the strings can move more, not because they are rough.
balls were "really" tried. They were changed to slow the game down. What would you propose? making them even slower???? You cant make them faster because the game has already become to powerful .

Scientific facts change with the times. It used to be a scientific fact that the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. All Im saying is try this contraption first and then say it doesnt provide anymore spin.

Your ITF quote says what makes spaghetti stringing illegal ....it does NOT comment at why it worked (and everyone agrees that it did in fact work). The reason it worked is sort of obvious......

Just look at the picture.....there are two strings through each hole. These double strings are each tied together with string. Now think about it .....think what happens when you hit the ball? You have two sets of strings acting in unison that come into contact with the ball. These two sets of string are "grabbing the ball" in a vice grip. As the theory "two heads are better than one"...."two sets of string are better than one set of string".

Two sets of strings are also thicker than on set of say 18 guage string for sure. this goes against the common wisdom that thinner strings create more thus creating more spin. I completely disagree with the "scientific data". I personally believe that thicker strings will give you more spin.


The spaghett idea is badly trying to be simulated today by trying to make strings rougher to "grab the ball" the way spaghetti strings did. As you originally pointed out if this device creates more spin as spaghetti stringing did then it should be banned the same way spaghetti stringing was.

manufacturers are constatntly trying to think of a way to "grab the ball" more to create more spin the way spaghetti strings did . The problem is they cant really get the same drastic effect that the double strung spaghetti did.

The closest thing that I have seen to create the spaghetti string is the Woodforde racquet. he had an extremely wide string pattern with really thick strings.....I think like 15 guage and a 16 x 14 string pattern. Players like mcenroe have said they have never seen spin like what Woodeforde created. The wide string pattern "grabs the ball" like a vice...sort of the way spaghetti "grabbed the ball" but not nearly as drastic. (by the way Vortex strings are rough and VERY thick...15 guage)

Woodfordes racquet also goes against the "conventional wisdom" which holds that the thinner the string the more spin. I believe Woodforde completely proved that to be wrong.

By the way if you want to see the modern woodforde racquet there is a modern copy called the Vortex. Its based on the Woodforde premise. really thick strings and a VERY wide string patter.... go to store.vortextennis.com .

Last edited by Donnay Quixote : 12-15-2010 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:13 PM   #32
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

I am excited to see this thread is living on but I am confused:

1. The string manufacturers spent millions of dollars to upgrade their process to make textured/profiled strings, for nothing?

2. Nadal changed his string to a profiled string because someone told him that the profiled string could make more spin but actually it really does not?

3. So many tennis players, so many websites and so many string manufacturers make contradicted statement to itf, they are all wrong because itf cannot prove their statement with the instruments itf has? itf has a test lab, most of string manufacturers have a test lab too, and probably much more advanced than the one in itf.

4. Did you ever try Luxilon strings? The main string is hardly moved when you hit the ball, I wonder where the spin comes from? Perhaps from the friction between string and ball?
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:56 PM   #33
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnay Quixote View Post
balls were "really" tried. They were changed to slow the game down. What would you propose? making them even slower???? You cant make them faster because the game has already become to powerful .

Scientific facts change with the times. It used to be a scientific fact that the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. All Im saying is try this contraption first and then say it doesnt provide anymore spin.

Your ITF quote says what makes spaghetti stringing illegal ....it does NOT comment at why it worked (and everyone agrees that it did in fact work). The reason it worked is sort of obvious......

Just look at the picture.....there are two strings through each hole. These double strings are each tied together with string. Now think about it .....think what happens when you hit the ball? You have two sets of strings acting in unison that come into contact with the ball. These two sets of string are "grabbing the ball" in a vice grip. As the theory "two heads are better than one"...."two sets of string are better than one set of string".

Two sets of strings are also thicker than on set of say 18 guage string for sure. this goes against the common wisdom that thinner strings create more thus creating more spin. I completely disagree with the "scientific data". I personally believe that thicker strings will give you more spin.


The spaghett idea is badly trying to be simulated today by trying to make strings rougher to "grab the ball" the way spaghetti strings did. As you originally pointed out if this device creates more spin as spaghetti stringing did then it should be banned the same way spaghetti stringing was.

manufacturers are constatntly trying to think of a way to "grab the ball" more to create more spin the way spaghetti strings did . The problem is they cant really get the same drastic effect that the double strung spaghetti did.

The closest thing that I have seen to create the spaghetti string is the Woodforde racquet. he had an extremely wide string pattern with really thick strings.....I think like 15 guage and a 16 x 14 string pattern. Players like mcenroe have said they have never seen spin like what Woodeforde created. The wide string pattern "grabs the ball" like a vice...sort of the way spaghetti "grabbed the ball" but not nearly as drastic. (by the way Vortex strings are rough and VERY thick...15 guage)

Woodfordes racquet also goes against the "conventional wisdom" which holds that the thinner the string the more spin. I believe Woodforde completely proved that to be wrong.

By the way if you want to see the modern woodforde racquet there is a modern copy called the Vortex. Its based on the Woodforde premise. really thick strings and a VERY wide string patter.... go to store.vortextennis.com .
i wouldnt say the earth being flat and the sun revolving round the earth were scientific facts. just because they were the prevailing opinions of the time and regarded as true, it doesnt mean they were facts; there were still people who believed otherwise. textured and profiled strings have been scientifically tested by the itf and found not to be effective. these tests are scientific and objective, and it even says they don't work on the itf technical centre website. surely there should be no dispute that they dont work.

i have seen mark woodfordes racket several times as its been in the stringing rooms i've worked in. it has 14 mains and 16 crosses and his string is a specially made luxilon string 1.60 mm thick. however, what i would point out is that he is a one off. there are no current tour players using rackets with that string pattern, nor are there any players using a string that thick. what that goes to show is that this kind of setup (very open string pattern, very thick string) is not for everyone. and, in order to get control from that setup, woodforde has to string at a tension of around 76 lbs, which is incredibly tight (about 21 lbs higher than nadal, who hits with the most spin on tour).

whilst conventional wisdom says that thinner strings can generate more spin, that has also been disproven by the itf: Although thinner strings are believed to impart more spin on the ball, there is little empirical evidence to support this theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by universelaw View Post
I am excited to see this thread is living on but I am confused:

1. The string manufacturers spent millions of dollars to upgrade their process to make textured/profiled strings, for nothing?

2. Nadal changed his string to a profiled string because someone told him that the profiled string could make more spin but actually it really does not?

3. So many tennis players, so many websites and so many string manufacturers make contradicted statement to itf, they are all wrong because itf cannot prove their statement with the instruments itf has? itf has a test lab, most of string manufacturers have a test lab too, and probably much more advanced than the one in itf.

4. Did you ever try Luxilon strings? The main string is hardly moved when you hit the ball, I wonder where the spin comes from? Perhaps from the friction between string and ball?
i'll address point 3 first. the itf has the most advanced lab in the world. to measure spin they use a video camera that operates at 1000 frames per second. i have used this camera myself and the software they use to calculate spin. furthermore, the itf is more objective than the manufacturers. manufacturers want to sell their products, so they will surely be more inclined to report what they want.

next, i'll move onto point 4. i have tried luxilon strings and they are used by a large proportion of tour players. the reason the players use these strings is because they can swing very hard at the ball and still have control. the fact that they can swing very hard means they have greater racquet head speed, which means they will generate greater spin. luxilon's popular alu rough string is a lot less popular on tour than people think. for every 100 rackets i string on tour, less than 10% will be in alu rough.

on to point 2. how do we know someone at babolat told nadal the string generates more spin. one potential reason for nadals change is pressure from the babolat management. for several years babolat had to disguise his duralast strings as pro hurricane tour and maybe they finally wanted him to actually endorse and use the same string, and with rpm blast being their new string that was a logical choice. also, rpm blast is a slightly more powerful string than duralast, so that extra power would benefit his game.

finally point 1. strangely, i would argue that the manufacturers havent wasted their money. most people (falsely) believe that these textured and profiled strings generate more spin, so they buy them. the fact that these strings sell well is justification for making them. the fact that they dont actually work is lost on most people.
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:51 PM   #34
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazar View Post
i wouldnt say the earth being flat and the sun revolving round the earth were scientific facts. just because they were the prevailing opinions of the time and regarded as true, it doesnt mean they were facts; there were still people who believed otherwise. textured and profiled strings have been scientifically tested by the itf and found not to be effective. these tests are scientific and objective, and it even says they don't work on the itf technical centre website. surely there should be no dispute that they dont work.

i have seen mark woodfordes racket several times as its been in the stringing rooms i've worked in. it has 14 mains and 16 crosses and his string is a specially made luxilon string 1.60 mm thick. however, what i would point out is that he is a one off. there are no current tour players using rackets with that string pattern, nor are there any players using a string that thick. what that goes to show is that this kind of setup (very open string pattern, very thick string) is not for everyone. and, in order to get control from that setup, woodforde has to string at a tension of around 76 lbs, which is incredibly tight (about 21 lbs higher than nadal, who hits with the most spin on tour).

whilst conventional wisdom says that thinner strings can generate more spin, that has also been disproven by the itf: Although thinner strings are believed to impart more spin on the ball, there is little empirical evidence to support this theory.



i'll address point 3 first. the itf has the most advanced lab in the world. to measure spin they use a video camera that operates at 1000 frames per second. i have used this camera myself and the software they use to calculate spin. furthermore, the itf is more objective than the manufacturers. manufacturers want to sell their products, so they will surely be more inclined to report what they want.

next, i'll move onto point 4. i have tried luxilon strings and they are used by a large proportion of tour players. the reason the players use these strings is because they can swing very hard at the ball and still have control. the fact that they can swing very hard means they have greater racquet head speed, which means they will generate greater spin. luxilon's popular alu rough string is a lot less popular on tour than people think. for every 100 rackets i string on tour, less than 10% will be in alu rough.

on to point 2. how do we know someone at babolat told nadal the string generates more spin. one potential reason for nadals change is pressure from the babolat management. for several years babolat had to disguise his duralast strings as pro hurricane tour and maybe they finally wanted him to actually endorse and use the same string, and with rpm blast being their new string that was a logical choice. also, rpm blast is a slightly more powerful string than duralast, so that extra power would benefit his game.

finally point 1. strangely, i would argue that the manufacturers havent wasted their money. most people (falsely) believe that these textured and profiled strings generate more spin, so they buy them. the fact that these strings sell well is justification for making them. the fact that they dont actually work is lost on most people.
well they were scientific facts back then...theres tons of other scientific facts that are disproven on a daily basis. And people dont agre with many "scientific facts" even today. For example the rings on Saturn, The cause of Ulcers, the causes of heart attacks, Fusion, and tons and tons more. The one fact that is true is that its a fact that scientific facts are disproven all the time. What is a scientific fact today is disproven tommorow. So just try the damn thing.....then you will know for sure. What do you have to lose?

The spaghetti strings prove to me at the very least that the ITF is just wrong. I dont care what kind of cameras they use or whatever. I know the spaghetti strings and that thereofre the ITF is wrong about texture.

As far as Woodforde being "one off"...who cares? Columbus was a "one off" but he was right!Actually usually a minority of people are right because they are smarter than the rest.

As far as Woodfordes racquet being strung tightly.....well Vortex has solved that issue and they actually went the complete other way. They have figured out a way to construct Woodefordes racquet and string it super loose....Im talking 45 pounds!!!!

I want to point out that even today there is a debate about whether looser strings or tighter strings give more spin. The one thing that is sure from Brodys book is that no one is sure what causes more spin.

So I say give the damn thing a try......its fun to try new things. Im not saying your wrong but give it a shot. You are probably right but that shouldnt stop you from trying. I have the same mentality in tennis.....I never give up even though the odds seem impossible. I think thats why we are able to debate so long .......neither of us want to give up.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:45 AM   #35
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Let’s focus on Point 4, we touched on it before...So in your mind, what makes the spin? You stated that fast racquet head speed generates the spin, but what exactly makes the spin? Remember, the main strings do not slide over the cross strings for Luxilon, so the theory about the main string sliding and bouncing back to generate spin does not apply here. You have to agree that the friction between the string and ball makes the spin, correct?

And it is good to know that 10% of pros believe in rough strings. Just to point out, the tennis spin maker makes the strings far rougher than the alu rough because:
1. it only puts the teeth marks on the string where it contacts the ball;
2. the marks are much more obvious and bigger than the original marks on the alu rough; I put the teeth marks on an alu rough string before, it made it much rougher as I could feel the difference with my hand;
3. even though the spin maker marks are rougher than the original marks on the alu rough, they fade off in 2 hours or so of hitting (but I can put the marks back on with the device). The original marks on the alu rough will be worn off in less than 30 minutes.
You need to take a close look at the areas where the strings cross each other. The marks on these areas wear off very fast since they are where the string makes solid contact with the ball. The other areas’ marks might still be there, but these marks are useless.

Now, I know that it will not change your mind on how strings impact the spin, but I think it is your professional obligation to tell those 10% of your customers about the tennis spin maker. At least let them know there is something like this out there. Not that many people know about this yet since this product is less than 2 months old.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:00 AM   #36
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Hey Universelaw.....I'm gonna end this debate. I'll by your product and I'll give it an honest review here in about a week or two.

As far as whether string gives more spin or racquet head speed .....well I personally think it's a combination of everything.

For example my Donnay racquet is an unbelievable 15 mm thin racquet....possibly the thinnest in history. The head speed I get is unbelievable and I have never gotten as much spin as with this racquet regardless of what string I use.

I also disagree with conventional wisdom that loose strings create more spin. I believe the tighter the strings are the more spin you get because you can create more head speed and control the ball. Rememebr it's not simply spin you need but controllable spin.

I also believe thicker stirngs give more spin and finally

Yes the surface does make a difference. Blue gear is the most jagged string I have ever seen....and you can hit topspin without havi g the topspin stroke,

Last edited by Donnay Quixote : 12-16-2010 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:19 PM   #37
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Thank you for giving it a try, just go to the website: www.TennisSpinMaker.com and the link in the Product page will take you to the amazon.com. You can order it from the amazon.com. If it does not work for you, just send it back I will give you a full refund. So far, the people who brought the product love it, I even sold one to Finland.

That is a very encouraging and surprising ending...
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:20 PM   #38
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

i really can't be bothered with this thread anymore. if you two idiots want to fly in the face of scientific fact, go ahead. i have science of my side and i know i'm right.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:51 PM   #39
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

You are influenced by the ITF test results from some certain experiments. We all know that the spin is mostly generated by the main string movement, it slides and snaps back to generate spin. But what if you put on some very rough string savers or tie the main and cross strings together to prevent main string from sliding over the cross string, are you saying that no spin can be generated because the main string can no longer slide and snap back? Did ITF do a test like this, I guess not. But both you and I know that spin can be generated, maybe with the same amount, maybe less or more, I do not know. It is a little complicated and let us not go there.

Let us look at a situation that you are familiar with and focus on one main string which generates spin. All main strings have two contact sides, one side is contacting with a cross string, the other side will be contacting with the ball. If we increase the slide and static coefficients (u) of the string, the string becomes a “rough string”. As a result, when the main string contacts with the ball, the ball will push harder on the main string and try to make it slide over the cross string because the friction between the ball and the string increases. But since the u between the main and cross is also increased, the main string is now harder to slide over a cross string, so the main string slides the same distance (more or less) as before even though it is pushed harder by the ball. Therefore, same energy is stored and snapped back, no additional spin is generated. As a conclusion, rough string does not generate more spin, just as what you stated. In fact, Tennis Warehouse claims that strings with lower static and/or sliding coefficients of friction are more likely to create more spin because the main string can slide over more on the cross.

Bingo, I got it. But we are not done yet, please read on...

How about we only increase the u on the side where it contacts with the ball and do not change the u on the side where it contacts with string? So the ball will push the main string harder, and the main will slide more and store more energy, therefore generate more spin. It is how and why the Tennis Spin Maker works; it increases the friction coefficient on the string where it contacts with the ball without changing the friction coefficient between the strings. Did you ever see any strings that have two different surfaces with two different coefficients? Did the ITF or anyone else test a string like this? The answer is no, because only the Tennis Spin Maker can make this kind of string.

I hope you learned something from this thread. The Tennis Spin Maker works not because you think it works, it works because it is designed to work and works. Do not follow the scientific evidences blindly without knowing why, it is an advice from a registered Professional Engineer, and it is free too.
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Old 05-11-2011, 01:19 AM   #40
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Wow, amazing thread you guys put in here. I've read it completely from top to bottom and I'm astonished at the effort everyone made to make your point. If the device works as intended or not is of no concern for me really, since what I learned far outweights the reliability of the device. I hope it works and we all have something to help us put more spin in our game, and if it doesn't or just slightly, then is another of the many technological advances that manufacturers have been making to accomplish an improvement in our game, even if just slightly, but that won't break ITF rules.
That is the way I've seen our game improve with technology, tiny steps. There hasn't been a definitive leap in performance in more than 30 years, just the accumulation of minor improvements.

BTW Jamie, I'm following you on twitter.
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