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Old 12-12-2010, 04:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

your product may not break any itf rules, but lets look at it this way: spaghetti stringing was banned because it significantly increased the amount of spin that could be generated. if we continue this line of thought, anything else that can significantly increase the amount of spin will be banned. profiled and textured strings have been tested by the itf (i know this because i wrote my university dissertation in association with the itf and used their facilities) and are not banned, therefore they do not significantly increase the amount of spin that can be generated. if profiled and textured strings were banned this would not affect pro players like nadal at all, because they can all generate spin regardless of what string they use. and anyway, the vast majority of the pro's i have strung for use round strings and not textured or profiled strings. all strings do lose tension; that is a scientific fact and is easily testable using a device such as a beers ert300. for example, when i string my racket i end up with a dynamic tension of around 42, and after about about two hours of play this usually drops to 39 or 40, which represents approximately a 10% loss of tension. this is about as much as i accept for my strings and seeing as pro's hit a lot harder than me, it is reasonable to assume that after a similar period of time their strings will have lost an equal if not greater amount of tension.; for most amateur and recreational players a tension loss of about 25% is usually reached before they feel the need to restring. in the years i've been stringing i've never had a customer come to me and say they feel their strings arent giving them as much spin as they were when new; they all say the strings feel dead and less powerful.

i'm not going to take up wour suggestion of getting a pair and using it at tournaments and not telling the players. this is partly because of my belief that it doesnt work and partly because i would never do something like that when the players dont ask for it; it would be breaking the trust they place in me as a stringer. at tournaments the players drop their rackets in to be strung, they dont want you to do anything else with their rackets unless they specifically ask you to.
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Old 12-12-2010, 07:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Here you go, get the test result and scientific data from the ITF on the textured and profiled strings, and that is your answer. Except that the tennis spin maker might give you a better result as it makes the surface rougher.

If the data shows that the textured/profiled string does not make any difference at all on the spin, you need to work with the ITF and tell all the string manufactures to stop the advertising on textured/profiled strings will give you more spin, and then I will take my product off of the market, even if the people are begging me to sell them one, deal? I think we all should go back to what we do the best-you keep stringing the racquets for the champs, and I will continue to invent something new and make my next millions...
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

i know the scientific data from the itf because i've seen it and it shows that textured and profiled strings do not give significantly more spin. however, there is nothing to stop manufacturers from saying certain strings give more spin than others, as it is widely regarded that polyester strings have revolutionised the game and do allow players to generate more spin than they are able to with other strings such as nylons. so, technically it is perfectly correct for a manufacturer to say that a textured polyester, such as rpm blast, gives more spin, as they dont say what they are comparing it to. but in reality if you compare a rough string, such as alu rough, with its round equivalent, the rough string will not produce more spin.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:33 AM   #19
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Is this data available for the public? Or guarded by the CIA?

The string manufacturers specifically state that the textured/profiled string will increase the spin, maybe you should go after the big fish like Babolat. Check out the statement below...

"Babolat RPM Blast 17 is the new string used by Andy Roddick and Rafael Nadal. An excellent choice for big hitters looking for extra spin. Octagonal (8-sided) cross-section adds the extra bite on the ball for added topspin and slice. New high density co-polymer polyester (PET) monofilament combined with a new cross-linked silicone coating provides even more spin and greater ball control."

Maybe you should shout it loud to Babolat: Your product does not work and tell your friend Nadal to stop using it. Just imagine if we use the Tennis Spin Maker on that string, man, you would need a fire extinguisher to put out the flames coming off from Nadal's racquet.

"Do not give significantly more spin" does not mean it does not give more spin, and what strings did ITF use to compare with the textured and profiled strings? And then later on you said that there wasn't any improvement at all. So which one is it? No significant improvement or no improvement? If there is some improvement, then how much? 1%, 5% or 10%? Would you spend a few dollars to get 5% additional spin improvement? If you are a serious player, you would for 1%.

This has been fun and I see your points. But I do not think we are going anywhere. Getting the ITF test data is not something I can afford right now. But if you would like to test it, I can get you a sample.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:47 AM   #20
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Quote:
Originally Posted by universelaw View Post
Is this data available for the public? Or guarded by the CIA?

The string manufacturers specifically state that the textured/profiled string will increase the spin, maybe you should go after the big fish like Babolat. Check out the statement below...

"Babolat RPM Blast 17 is the new string used by Andy Roddick and Rafael Nadal. An excellent choice for big hitters looking for extra spin. Octagonal (8-sided) cross-section adds the extra bite on the ball for added topspin and slice. New high density co-polymer polyester (PET) monofilament combined with a new cross-linked silicone coating provides even more spin and greater ball control."

Maybe you should shout it loud to Babolat: Your product does not work and tell your friend Nadal to stop using it. Just imagine if we use the Tennis Spin Maker on that string, man, you would need a fire extinguisher to put out the flames coming off from Nadal's racquet.

"Do not give significantly more spin" does not mean it does not give more spin, and what strings did ITF use to compare with the textured and profiled strings? And then later on you said that there wasn't any improvement at all. So which one is it? No significant improvement or no improvement? If there is some improvement, then how much? 1%, 5% or 10%? Would you spend a few dollars to get 5% additional spin improvement? If you are a serious player, you would for 1%.

This has been fun and I see your points. But I do not think we are going anywhere. Getting the ITF test data is not something I can afford right now. But if you would like to test it, I can get you a sample.
Dude you are literally talkin out your A$$ please politely shut up.
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:59 AM   #21
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

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Originally Posted by dunlopkickserve View Post
Dude you are literally talkin out your A$$ please politely shut up.
i think this is a good comment to end this thread on
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Let's end with something a little more intelligent.

1. If you believe that the textured/profiled strings can provide you added spin, then use the Tennis Spin Maker.
2. If you do not believe that the textured/profiled strings can provide you added spin, like Jazar, then do not use the Tennis spin Maker.


from
http://www.stringforum.net/about_strings.php

"Structured Strings
Structured (textured) strings are designed to provide better ball bite and thus enhanced spin. Most of these strings indeed offer great spin potential and in line with that better control, but unfortunately the texture usually wears within a short time and the strings become smooth. Another downside is their decreased durability.
Examples: Kirschbaum Super Smash Spiky, Pacific Power Hex, Isospeed Pyramid, Prince Topspin Plus."
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

here is a quote from the itf technical centre website (which i believe is a more reliable source of information then stringforum.net):

Although thinner strings are believed to impart more spin on the ball, there is little empirical evidence to support this theory. There is also no appreciable difference in spin produced by rough or smooth, low- or high-tension strings.
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Old 12-14-2010, 04:43 AM   #24
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazar View Post
your product may not break any itf rules, but lets look at it this way: spaghetti stringing was banned because it significantly increased the amount of spin that could be generated. if we continue this line of thought, anything else that can significantly increase the amount of spin will be banned. profiled and textured strings have been tested by the itf (i know this because i wrote my university dissertation in association with the itf and used their facilities) and are not banned, therefore they do not significantly increase the amount of spin that can be generated. if profiled and textured strings were banned this would not affect pro players like nadal at all, because they can all generate spin regardless of what string they use. and anyway, the vast majority of the pro's i have strung for use round strings and not textured or profiled strings. all strings do lose tension; that is a scientific fact and is easily testable using a device such as a beers ert300. for example, when i string my racket i end up with a dynamic tension of around 42, and after about about two hours of play this usually drops to 39 or 40, which represents approximately a 10% loss of tension. this is about as much as i accept for my strings and seeing as pro's hit a lot harder than me, it is reasonable to assume that after a similar period of time their strings will have lost an equal if not greater amount of tension.; for most amateur and recreational players a tension loss of about 25% is usually reached before they feel the need to restring. in the years i've been stringing i've never had a customer come to me and say they feel their strings arent giving them as much spin as they were when new; they all say the strings feel dead and less powerful.

i'm not going to take up wour suggestion of getting a pair and using it at tournaments and not telling the
players. this is partly because of my belief that it doesnt work and partly because i would never do something like that when the players dont ask for it; it would be breaking the trust they place in me as a stringer. at tournaments the players drop their rackets in to be strung, they dont want you to do anything else with their rackets unless they specifically ask you to.
1- I think banning the spaghetti racquet was a huge mistake and it was all just political because Vilas was beaten and cried like a baby to the authorities. The truth is that spaghetti strings were not that big of a deal. I should know because I bought a spaghetti racquet on ebay. Yes you get a lot of spin but no power. Graphite and oversized racquets have changed the game far more than a spaghetti racquet. I think spaghetti racquets should be legal .....this way maybe we could see touch and serve and volley come back. It would be nice to see power versus feel. The classic game is dead and the only way to combat the modern power game would be spaghetti racquets .

2- tennis is the most conservative sport I have ever seen in my life, this guy thinks of a new idea and he is attacked. How do you know it doesn't work? Did you ever try it? Give it a shot and see if it works and then cone back and post. Otherwise you really cannot comment on the topic.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:16 AM   #25
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

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1- I think banning the spaghetti racquet was a huge mistake and it was all just political because Vilas was beaten and cried like a baby to the authorities. The truth is that spaghetti strings were not that big of a deal. I should know because I bought a spaghetti racquet on ebay. Yes you get a lot of spin but no power. Graphite and oversized racquets have changed the game far more than a spaghetti racquet. I think spaghetti racquets should be legal .....this way maybe we could see touch and serve and volley come back. It would be nice to see power versus feel. The classic game is dead and the only way to combat the modern power game would be spaghetti racquets .

2- tennis is the most conservative sport I have ever seen in my life, this guy thinks of a new idea and he is attacked. How do you know it doesn't work? Did you ever try it? Give it a shot and see if it works and then cone back and post. Otherwise you really cannot comment on the topic.
1. bringing back spaghetti stringing isnt the only way to combat the modern power game. a much better solution would be bring back wooden rackets.

2. i can comment and have previously been asked by some companies to test products with similar claims, which i have found not to work. whilst my tests were not the same kind of scientific tests as used by the itf, they were objective. as i've mentioned throughout this thread, there is no scientific evidence to say that textured or profiled strings increase spin. therefore, there is no scientific evidence to say that a device gives strings more texture increases spin
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

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Originally Posted by jazar View Post
1. bringing back spaghetti stringing isnt the only way to combat the modern power game. a much better solution would be bring back wooden rackets.

2. i can comment and have previously been asked by some companies to test products with similar claims, which i have found not to work. whilst my tests were not the same kind of scientific tests as used by the itf, they were objective. as i've mentioned throughout this thread, there is no scientific evidence to say that textured or profiled strings increase spin. therefore, there is no scientific evidence to say that a device gives strings more texture increases spin
1- Thats a great solution but not practical. There is to much money at stake. You see the problem with wood racquets is that you cannot create all the "bells and whistles" like with graphite. You cant make wood racquets to big or change the shape to much because they are would be to heavy.
In fact back in the day companies had that problem with wood racquets. So Wilson came up with the "autoraphed" wood racquet with a new paint job....but in reality it was just the same old piece of wood as before. Therefore , wood is a great solution but wont happen....so spaghetti is the second best choice.

2- As to your emprical tests and the like I applaud you. But that doesnt mean you should be biased. You may feel that the product doesnt work but until you actually try his particular product you dont know for sure. There are plenty of products on paper that shouldnt work but in fact they do. For example the bumble bee itself is a miracle. It shouldnt be able to fly and yet it does.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:53 PM   #27
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

1. spaghetti stringing is never going to be unbanned. more realistic solutions that have been/are being considered are changes to the balls (which proved unpopular with manufacturers) and changes to the surfaces.

2. did you not read my post from earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazar View Post
here is a quote from the itf technical centre website (which i believe is a more reliable source of information then stringforum.net):

Although thinner strings are believed to impart more spin on the ball, there is little empirical evidence to support this theory. There is also no appreciable difference in spin produced by rough or smooth, low- or high-tension strings.
this is from the itf tech centre website. they are saying rough strings dont produce more spin. by extension, that means this product will not be effective in achieving what it claims to do.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:41 AM   #28
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazar View Post
1. spaghetti stringing is never going to be unbanned. more realistic solutions that have been/are being considered are changes to the balls (which proved unpopular with manufacturers) and changes to the surfaces.

2. did you not read my post from earlier:



this is from the itf tech centre website. they are saying rough strings dont produce more spin. by extension, that means this product will not be effective in achieving what it claims to do.
1- well it's way more likely than going back to wood. But I agree it's highly unlikely. As far as changing the balls.... That's already been done and it hasn't worked.... In fact it's made things worse..... Serve and volley is dead. However We digress.....

2- I thought I did. What I'm saying is that the ITF could very well be wrong and has bee wrong in the past. For example it used to be common knowledge that thinner strings produced gave more spin....then another school of though came out and said that thicker in gives more spin because there's more material that comes into contact with the ball. Then another school of thought holds that it doesn't matter on the strings at all but depends on racquet head speed. So the bottom line is no one really knows for sure.

Besides have you ever tried pro supex blue gear? Go try that string and you tell me if it doesn't give you wayyyyyyyy more spin. You won't believe how jagged the strings are. You will experience way more spin.....guaranteed !

But I'll go one step further. Did you now in the 70's they actually thought the tighter your strings the more power you had? Well guess what they were wrong.....and they could be wrong again. I just say try it first before dismissing it you may be right.....but you have got to try it first.

Last edited by Donnay Quixote : 12-15-2010 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

Almost forgot I know the ITF is wrong and I can prove it.Have you ever seen spaghetti stringing? Well one of the reasons it gave so much spin was because its surface was so jagged.


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Old 12-15-2010, 08:27 AM   #30
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Default Re: Tennis Spin Maker for All Strings

changing the balls wasnt really tried that much as the manufacturers weren't too keen on it. the plan was to have 3 types of ball: a lighter one for clay, a slightly larger, heavier one for grass and a normal one for hard courts.

you say it used to be common knowledge and i agree that it was; however it wasn't common knowledge based on scientific fact, it was based on theory, which the itf have proven to be incorrect. i have tried pro supex blue gear and found it to give no more spin than any other polyester. the fact that people think] strings like that give more spin is because they are told they give more spin (its often written on the packaging) and therefore have no reason to doubt it. you could give an ordinary player two identical rackets, strung identically and tell them that one string will give them more spin than the other and the chances are, they will come back to you and agree. its all in the head.

the reason spaghetti stringing worked isnt because it is rough. heres what the itf say about it:

Spaghetti stringing is illegal because the main and cross strings are not interlaced (or bonded). Instead, the strings lie on parallel planes and are able to move with the aid of tubular sleeves, which act as bearings. The freedom of movement allows the strings to deflect within the plane of the hitting surface and so rotate the ball as they recoil. The result is that players can produce extreme spin with minimal effort.

so, more spin is generated because the strings can move more, not because they are rough.
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