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Old 08-07-2010, 02:47 PM   #91
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
the burden is on the victims' families, their widows and children, to exhibit tolerance for muslim insensitivity. pretty weird.
I think a very reasonable solution here is for Saudi Arabia to suggest twinning a mosque at ground zero with a new synagogue in downtown Mecca. Such a reaching out would surely show the real face of Islam.
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Old 08-07-2010, 02:53 PM   #92
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
while that argument does make sense to some extent, i still don't get why it's so hard to understand lots of americans' feelings regarding this issue. after all, it was muslims who (allegedly) came to america nine years ago and murdered in the name of allah - yet the burden is on the victims' families, their widows and children, to exhibit tolerance for muslim insensitivity. pretty weird.
like americans came to iraq and did the same just in a much worse scale.

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btw even turks i talk to over here (who are fairly moderate compared to syrian or iraqi muslim immigrants) recognize cordoba as a symbol of islamic conquest. muslims built the al-aqsa mosque on top of the jews' revered temple mount in jerusalem, transformed the st. sophia basilica in constantinople into a sprawling mosque complex etc., so it's not like there's no pattern.
turks who are living in germany are very americanized. go to turkey and ask them the same question.
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Old 08-07-2010, 02:59 PM   #93
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
while that argument does make sense to some extent, i still don't get why it's so hard to understand lots of americans' feelings regarding this issue. after all, it was muslims who (allegedly) came to america nine years ago and murdered in the name of allah - yet the burden is on the victims' families, their widows and children, to exhibit tolerance for muslim insensitivity. pretty weird.

btw even turks i talk to over here (who are fairly moderate compared to syrian or iraqi muslim immigrants) recognize cordoba as a symbol of islamic conquest. muslims built the al-aqsa mosque on top of the jews' revered temple mount in jerusalem, transformed the st. sophia basilica in constantinople into a sprawling mosque complex etc., so it's not like there's no pattern.
I do understand the American families' feelings towards this, but that doesn't mean I think they are justified, they are irrational feelings, generalizing the act of terrorism in 9/11 as if Islam as a religion is responsible for this, it's like saying Christianity is responsible for Ku Klux Klan and their acts, or the Army of God.

the Islamic center isn't being built in place of a church or a synagogue, so this is not the issue here.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:05 PM   #94
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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like americans came to iraq and did the same just in a much worse scale.
what are you referring to? i have yet to see major religious symbols being erected by coalition forces, marking the succesful conquering of new lands.

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turks who are living in germany are very americanized. go to turkey and ask them the same question.
conservative, pro-islamic views run very deep among turkish immigrants, as you will know, much deeper than among people in turkey. it's quite likely that istanbul is the most "westernised" islamic metropolis on the planet.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:06 PM   #95
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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the Islamic center isn't being built in place of a church or a synagogue, so this is not the issue here.
So what about that synagogue in downtown Mecca? Any objections?
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:07 PM   #96
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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turks who are living in germany are very americanized.


You forgot to mention they have a good time on St. Patrick's Day.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:10 PM   #97
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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So what about that synagogue in downtown Mecca? Any objections?
Manhattan isn't Christianity's Makkah, maybe if they are gonna build a mosque in the Vatican we can talk.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:10 PM   #98
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Christianity is responsible for Ku Klux Klan and their acts
True, actually.

They didn't leave burning Stars of David on peoples' lawns.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:17 PM   #99
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Manhattan isn't Christianity's Makkah, maybe if they are gonna build a mosque in the Vatican we can talk.
And neither is the Vatican.

But surely the goal of Islam would be ''on'' the Vatican rather than ''in'' it.

No, the heart of Christianity is Jerusalem. So I guess there is no justification for building a mosque there.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:24 PM   #100
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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what are you referring to? i have yet to see major religious symbols being erected by coalition forces, marking the succesful conquering of new lands.
succesful? didn't they lost the wars in iraq and especially afghanistan?
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:25 PM   #101
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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And neither is the Vatican.

But surely the goal of Islam would be ''on'' the Vatican rather than ''in'' it.

No, the heart of Christianity is Jerusalem. So I guess there is no justification for building a mosque there.
Jerusalem is the heart of all religions, Muslims prayed to Jerusalem for years before they switched to Makkah, the religious claim goes all ways.

anyway this is a pointless discussion.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:26 PM   #102
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

NEWS FLASH:

Hey there horny teenagers in Riyad, don't sell your Blackberries. But be careful, the Royal Princes may be reading your BBM's.
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Old 08-07-2010, 03:45 PM   #103
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Jerusalem is the heart of all religions, Muslims prayed to Jerusalem for years before they switched to Makkah, the religious claim goes all ways.

anyway this is a pointless discussion.
It is not pointless at all. You just don't want to pursue it.

While pointing out that Mecca is the centre of Islam and there would be no reason to build a synagogue there, I will widen the discussion and ask why Saudi Arabia does not offer a site ANYWHERE in the kingdom for a synagogue as a twin centre of worship? It is because Saudi Arabia prohibits any form of synagogue or church within its borders, isn't it? Not just Mecca.

In the above posts you were saying that this centre in Manhattan would represent tolerance, love and all those nice things that Islam really is, not terrorism.
But Saudi Arabia arguably epitomises Islam and in that country there is no freedom of religion, Islam is an official religion and all citizens are REQUIRED to be Muslims. The government prohibits the public practice of non-Muslim religions.

So I ask, what particular face of Islam is the mosque in Manhattan intended to show? If it is the face of Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia, then it is contrary to every American value of freedom and human rights.
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Old 08-07-2010, 04:09 PM   #104
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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It is not pointless at all. You just don't want to pursue it.

While pointing out that Mecca is the centre of Islam and there would be no reason to build a synagogue there, I will widen the discussion and ask why Saudi Arabia does not offer a site ANYWHERE in the kingdom for a synagogue as a twin centre of worship? It is because Saudi Arabia prohibits any form of synagogue or church within its borders, isn't it? Not just Mecca.

In the above posts you were saying that this centre in Manhattan would represent tolerance, love and all those nice things that Islam really is, not terrorism.
But Saudi Arabia arguably epitomises Islam and in that country there is no freedom of religion, Islam is an official religion and all citizens are REQUIRED to be Muslims. The government prohibits the public practice of non-Muslim religions.

So I ask, what particular face of Islam is the mosque in Manhattan intended to show? If it is the face of Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia, then it is contrary to every American value of freedom and human rights.
no not the face of Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia, not allowing churches/synagogues in cities outside of Makkah is not what Islam says but it's a government policy, there are small churches inside big compounds where alot of Christians live btw.

Saudi Arabia's version of Islam is a repressive backward ultra-conservative one, where alot of cultural and tribal traditions have mixed with religion in a very fucked up way, and the country and Islam's image has suffered because of this.
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Old 08-07-2010, 05:18 PM   #105
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Why would Spain cede anything? they invaded Christian Spain first and then were rightfully kicked out many centuries later.

Jerusalem does not belong to Israel. Period.
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