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Old 09-17-2010, 01:43 AM   #256
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo View Post
stronger than Hamas maybe but not stronger than Hezbollah. Hezbollah is Israel's biggest nightmare.
Hezbollah would dream to have the IDF capabilities. Sorry man, but look in the 2nd Lebanon war what happenned to Hezbollah and what happenned to the IDF. although it wasn't a good one for the IDF, Hezbollah got hurt badly and lose almost all his equipments(Thanks to Syria, Iran and the "strong" UNIFIL forces, he got it all back already or even got stronger)
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:48 AM   #257
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Nimrodg View Post
Easy yom kippur for everyone
and as being done in Kippur
swisht4u, bilbo and others, sorry if I offended you, just trying to give you my point of view for the whole conflict
Have a good day!
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:00 AM   #258
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

(CNN) -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has proposed a three-month extension of Israel's construction moratorium on the West Bank, a diplomatic source told CNN Thursday.

The proposal, which was made this week during Middle East peace talks being held in the region, was accepted by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, but essentially rejected by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

The two sides appear to be at a stalemate, the source said.

Netanyahu's official position remains that he will not support any extension of the moratorium, which has been in place for 10 months and is set to expire September 26.

The U.S. special envoy to the region, former Sen. George Mitchell, is attempting to negotiate a "quid pro quo" from the Palestinians in exchange for an extension, the source added.

"There are all kinds of ideas in the air" over different ways to break the logjam, the source noted.

"Nobody is going to let the talks break down over this issue," the source said. "Nobody is walking out of these talks."

Among the ideas being discussed is a recognition on the part of the Palestinians of Israel as a fundamentally Jewish state. A partial continuation of the moratorium is also under discussion, though Abbas has so far resisted anything less than a full extension, the source said.

Israeli and Palestinian negotiating teams are expected to continue discussing the issue at a meeting scheduled for Sunday, the source added.

The expectation is that some sort of solution will ultimately be found, the source said.

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/me...ex.html?hpt=T1


Anyone surprised?
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:16 PM   #259
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

I tell you what the problem in my percpective, Bilbo (bear in mind that I think we should accept this offer).

The Israeli goverment, and particulary PM Netanyahu, agreed to the construction moratorium 10 months ago. It was not easy given the political climate in Israel.
Since then, we have pleaded and pleaded with the Palestinians to enter direct talks with us, to no avail. A month before the moratorium is over, they suddenly agree to direct talks?

The idea was, that Israel to freeze the building for a year, in that time we talk. A year is a reasonable time frame to negotiate an agreement, while 3 months are not.
They delayed talking for a year, and now they want another time period. Why did they wait for 10 months? What changed?

I think we should stop building, because I don't think we should keep the most of settlements - but those things needs to be negotiated. I'm not the one needs convincing, and the actions of the Palestinians just reek of lack of good faith. What stopped them from talking for 10 months?! Israel wasn't building.

Now, Netanyahu has a political problem if he stops the construction. 'pitching' a peace agreement or a permenant arrangment to his coalition would be a lot easier than 'pitching' another moratoriom, while no one knows what would come out of it.

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Old 09-17-2010, 06:03 PM   #260
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Or Levy View Post

Explain to me how Israel is an occupying force in the past 60 years, if the Palestinians themselves rejected the UN plan?

You do realize, that if the Palestinians and other Arab countries had THEIR way 60 years ago, there wouldn't be any Israeli refugees, because everyone would have been killed?

And who said anything about devine right? It was a UN legal desicion.
Or Levy. You need to read International law before saying something was legal or not.

The UN partition was not legal. UN doesn't have the right to divide a country unless a local poll was done. The poll wasn't made because Palestinians were the majority.

Another thing, I hope you check history before saying Palestinians deported themselves. Arabs declared 48 war AFTER massacres were done to evict towns from its Palestinians inhabitants and you can read many history books about this year and see the history of the massacres and the history of declaration of war which btw wasn't that bad since the millions of Palestinians living inside Palestinian 47 borders are thankful to it. The population transfer was a target in Israeli minds from the start, you can read Ben Gurion biography and you will find surprising quotes.
Oh and why would Arabs kill Jewish, Arab Jewish were living in Arab countries for centuries, Jewish fled from Nazis towards few of Arab countries.

Another thing I really want to understand is why Israel doesn't have borders? Every other country in the world have borders. If you guys are satisfied with the Partition borders or 67 or whatever borders, why don't you say those are the borders of my country.



Thats being said. I see no problem in a fair 2 state solution with internalization of the religious part of E.Jerusalem because this will bring peace to all but do you really think Israeli Government actions indicate they believe in this solution?

Peace.
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Old 09-18-2010, 08:10 PM   #261
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
Or Levy. You need to read International law before saying something was legal or not.

The UN partition was not legal. UN doesn't have the right to divide a country unless a local poll was done. The poll wasn't made because Palestinians were the majority.

Another thing, I hope you check history before saying Palestinians deported themselves. Arabs declared 48 war AFTER massacres were done to evict towns from its Palestinians inhabitants and you can read many history books about this year and see the history of the massacres and the history of declaration of war which btw wasn't that bad since the millions of Palestinians living inside Palestinian 47 borders are thankful to it. The population transfer was a target in Israeli minds from the start, you can read Ben Gurion biography and you will find surprising quotes.
Oh and why would Arabs kill Jewish, Arab Jewish were living in Arab countries for centuries, Jewish fled from Nazis towards few of Arab countries.

Another thing I really want to understand is why Israel doesn't have borders? Every other country in the world have borders. If you guys are satisfied with the Partition borders or 67 or whatever borders, why don't you say those are the borders of my country.



Thats being said. I see no problem in a fair 2 state solution with internalization of the religious part of E.Jerusalem because this will bring peace to all but do you really think Israeli Government actions indicate they believe in this solution?

Peace.
1. If the UN partiotion was not legal, so a solution need to be found, and many Israelis believe in the 67 borders (with a bit of changes)

2. Thankfully I also learned some history, and from what I know - in the day of November 29th 1948, Arabs who lived in Israel and in "neighbour" countries started to attack Israel.

3. I hope there will be negotiations, and I don't mind that E. Jerusalem will be in International hold. I'm just waiting that there will be partners. I don't say that Abu Mazen is not a partner, I'm just saying that it's a problem when there is Hamas government in Gaza, and doubtable PM in Syria, and these are the people who should show that they are willing to negotiate peace.
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:16 PM   #262
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by @Sweet Cleopatra View Post
Or Levy. You need to read International law before saying something was legal or not.

The UN partition was not legal. UN doesn't have the right to divide a country unless a local poll was done. The poll wasn't made because Palestinians were the majority.

Another thing, I hope you check history before saying Palestinians deported themselves. Arabs declared 48 war AFTER massacres were done to evict towns from its Palestinians inhabitants and you can read many history books about this year and see the history of the massacres and the history of declaration of war which btw wasn't that bad since the millions of Palestinians living inside Palestinian 47 borders are thankful to it. The population transfer was a target in Israeli minds from the start, you can read Ben Gurion biography and you will find surprising quotes.
Oh and why would Arabs kill Jewish, Arab Jewish were living in Arab countries for centuries, Jewish fled from Nazis towards few of Arab countries.

Another thing I really want to understand is why Israel doesn't have borders? Every other country in the world have borders. If you guys are satisfied with the Partition borders or 67 or whatever borders, why don't you say those are the borders of my country.



Thats being said. I see no problem in a fair 2 state solution with internalization of the religious part of E.Jerusalem because this will bring peace to all but do you really think Israeli Government actions indicate they believe in this solution?

Peace.
As Palestine was not a country, the UN could divide it.

There was all kind of violence prior to 1929, the majority of it coming from the Arabs toward the Jews. Read about the events of 1948, for example then come back to me.

Why would Arab kill the Jewish because everyone got along in the Arab countries... Wow, just - WOW.

From wikipedia, for example:

"Farhud refers to the pogrom or "violent dispossession" carried out against the Jewish population of Baghdad, Iraq, on June 1-2, 1941 during the Jewish holiday of Shavuot. The riots occurred in a power vacuum following the collapse of the pro-Nazi government of Rashid Ali while the city was in a state of instability. Before British and Transjordanian forces arrived, around 175 Jews had been killed and 1,000 injured. Looting of Jewish property took place and 900 Jewish homes were destroyed.[1] By 1951, 110,000 Jews - 80% of Iraqi Jewry - had emigrated from the country, most to Israel.[2] The Farhud has been called the "forgotten pogrom of the Holocaust" and "the beginning of the end of the Jewish community of Iraq", a community that had existed for 2,600 years.[3]


BTW, what has the PA done to prove they are ready for a fair two state solution without violence toward Israel? Has they managed to stop Hammas from shooting on Israel almost daily? Nope. They arrest Hammas people only to release them a few weeks afterwards. Can they control Palestine - nope. Hammas already declared that for them, the only way is resistence, not peace talks.

So, I can be hopeful about a lot of things, but there's no stable goverment for Israel to talk with over there. The PA doesn't control Gaza, and the Hammas isn't a partner for peace.

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Old 09-20-2010, 05:35 PM   #263
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

The Hammas new propaganda film regarding Gilad Shalit (Israel kidnapped soldier, captive in Gaza for 4 years) - it shows Hammas militants aiming a riffel at him, the caption in Arabic states "Will they complete the mission"

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/1...loc=4&tmp=1921
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Old 09-20-2010, 08:39 PM   #264
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Nimrodg View Post
1.

2. November 29th 1948

3.
Exactly thats the day Arabs declared the war after serious of massacres the most famous is Deir Yassin in APRIL 48 http://www.deiryassin.org/
btw this is not something I invented you can read about Folke Bernadotte who got killed for saying the same thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte

Quote:
Originally Posted by Or Levy View Post
As Palestine was not a country, the UN could divide it.

Do You know that to divide something, this thing has to exist first Please.
------------------------------------------

I also still don't know the reason for any country not to have borders unless this country wants to extend its area. The definite borders to any country is essential for its legal definition. The government without borders is just a ruling force and not not a government of a real country.

Another thing is that Israel occupies Gaza and West Bank, With the continuous refusal of letting a Palestinian country to exist, there is nothing left for those people who are millions but the South Africa Scenario. They will eventually ask to be Israeli citizens. If the best solution is 2 states and you think having a country with Jewish majority is important then the best thing is to do it now, give them Gaza and West Bank to make their country in it. I understand there is a severe fight over certain parts in E.Jerusalem, may be a ruling force from the 3 religions from different countries can have a special agreement about those certain parts?

I listened to a very funny man talking in CNN saying that Settlers should live in West Bank just like the Arabs who live in Israel. That got to be the funniest excuse for occupation I have ever listened in my life. Settlers don't want to be part of Palestine, they want to be part of Israel, while Arabs were living in their homes when others came to their lands. If Settlers want to be Palestinian Jews, thats fine but they actually want to take parts of West Bank to be part of the Israeli country.

Yes Or Levy Hamas is resisting occupation, thats a normal reaction, and legal btw, what do you really expect. And the Israeli Government is putting thousands of Palestinians in jail, they don't don't want to free some of them to get Shalit.

The negotiation is not going good now due the insist of not stopping Settlements, and this new thing of asking Palestinians to define Israel as a country for Jewish people when in fact there are many Muslim and Christian Arabs plus Druz who are living there.

There are people from both sides who don't want the negotiation to succeed, you discussed Hamas but you didn't discuss A.Liberman and many other fanatics. To summarize the situation their aim is to destroy the peace process cause they think there is a way in the future to destroy millions of people either millions of Palestinians or millions of Jewish. They should be ignored and the peace process should go on. A fair peace will prevent them from having many followers.

If negotiations can't work, both parties should go to the International Court of Justice.

Any way, I hope peace exists. I am against injustice any where, I am against the cruelty that Muslim Women face in many communities like Saudi Arabia. I am against Racism Sexism and every kind of injustice, thats why I am against the Occupation Palestinians are facing just like I am against the injustice Jewish faced in history. I really hope that both parties can find a peaceful way to end this problem. The amount of hate and wars are just so much. Religion should bring peace not wars. I understand your annoyance when people seem to focus more on this specific conflict when the world is filled with injustice but you made a thread about it and I had to reply. Just imagine for a minute you are a Palestinian. Don't you think they are also people with feelings and hope.
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:20 PM   #265
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Quote:
Exactly thats the day Arabs declared the war after serious of massacres the most famous is Deir Yassin in APRIL 48 http://www.deiryassin.org/
btw this is not something I invented you can read about Folke Bernadotte who got killed for saying the same thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folke_Bernadotte
Actually I made a typo mistake and the declaration was at November 1947, so your claim is irrelevant. When you talk about the Deir Yassin incident, tell also that it was in the middle of a war, that Jerusalem was on a siege by arab troops, preventing from thousands of jewish people to get supply, and there was a battle in the village that in both sides there were casualties. It's not clear what happened there, but from what i've written, lately researches and historians saying the number of casualties from the village wasn't as big as been reported, and there was no shooting from close range over there.
It's funny that you are showing it like Israel made it all started, but there were enough incidents(Read some about Jaffa riots, 1929 riots, and you might read some about Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, who was one of the Palestinians leaders, and his activity with the nazi regime)

Do You know that to divide something, this thing has to exist first Please.
------------------------------------------

Quote:
I also still don't know the reason for any country not to have borders unless this country wants to extend its area. The definite borders to any country is essential for its legal definition. The government without borders is just a ruling force and not not a government of a real country.
Well, It's not like Israel enjoying keeping Palestinian territories under it's control. There are reasons that the situation is like this now, and believe me Israel want to get a solution for this.

Quote:
Another thing is that Israel occupies Gaza and West Bank, With the continuous refusal of letting a Palestinian country to exist, there is nothing left for those people who are millions but the South Africa Scenario. They will eventually ask to be Israeli citizens. If the best solution is 2 states and you think having a country with Jewish majority is important then the best thing is to do it now, give them Gaza and West Bank to make their country in it. I understand there is a severe fight over certain parts in E.Jerusalem, may be a ruling force from the 3 religions from different countries can have a special agreement about those certain parts?
You can go and check it, none(!) of the last Prime ministers of Israel, refused to letting a Palestinian country to exist. all of them agree that this is the solution, but you can't declare a country with many issues unsolved as now.
BTW - Israel is supplying Gaza with food and electricity, and some people suggested to help them to build a port and power station, and let them handle by their own, and from what i've heard, the Palestinians didn't want this.

Quote:
I listened to a very funny man talking in CNN saying that Settlers should live in West Bank just like the Arabs who live in Israel. That got to be the funniest excuse for occupation I have ever listened in my life. Settlers don't want to be part of Palestine, they want to be part of Israel, while Arabs were living in their homes when others came to their lands. If Settlers want to be Palestinian Jews, thats fine but they actually want to take parts of West Bank to be part of the Israeli country.
Settlers believes that those lands belong to the Jewish people. I don't agree with them and most of people in Israel do not agree with them. Still, I think that Palestinians making too much of it.

Quote:
Yes Or Levy Hamas is resisting occupation, thats a normal reaction, and legal btw, what do you really expect. And the Israeli Government is putting thousands of Palestinians in jail, they don't don't want to free some of them to get Shalit.
Because some of them are maybe with "blood on their hands" - responsible for killing innocent people, Israel has every right to hold them - and the refusal to let them go is understood, as they can come back and make terror attacks.

Quote:
The negotiation is not going good now due the insist of not stopping Settlements, and this new thing of asking Palestinians to define Israel as a country for Jewish people when in fact there are many Muslim and Christian Arabs plus Druz who are living there.
It's funny that until now the anthem of Israel including clear message that it's a Jewish country, and there were no claims as now, when demanding to see Israel as a Jewish country. What's the problem that it'll be a Jewish country? does it means that Muslims and Arabs can't live here? that's nonsense.

Quote:
There are people from both sides who don't want the negotiation to succeed, you discussed Hamas but you didn't discuss A.Liberman and many other fanatics. To summarize the situation their aim is to destroy the peace process cause they think there is a way in the future to destroy millions of people either millions of Palestinians or millions of Jewish. They should be ignored and the peace process should go on. A fair peace will prevent them from having many followers.
Hamas can't be compared to Liberman. Liberman already said that he agrees to a 2 state solution. Hamas on the other hand, not willing to see Israel right to exist. Any peace that will come won't be real as long as Hamas exist, and I don't believe that he will be gone if a peace agreement will be achieved, unfortunately.

Quote:
If negotiations can't work, both parties should go to the International Court of Justice.
Nope. The International Court of Justice do not understand all the issues that need to be discussed, and a peace should only come between people from the 2 sides, otherwise it'll be a fake peace.

Quote:
Any way, I hope peace exists. I am against injustice any where, I am against the cruelty that Muslim Women face in many communities like Saudi Arabia. I am against Racism Sexism and every kind of injustice, thats why I am against the Occupation Palestinians are facing just like I am against the injustice Jewish faced in history. I really hope that both parties can find a peaceful way to end this problem. The amount of hate and wars are just so much. Religion should bring peace not wars. I understand your annoyance when people seem to focus more on this specific conflict when the world is filled with injustice but you made a thread about it and I had to reply. Just imagine for a minute you are a Palestinian. Don't you think they are also people with feelings and hope.
I hope for peace as well and I wish it'll come when day, and I will be able to see it in my eyes. I only think that people that most of the people that criticizing Israel from all over the world, don't have any idea on the subject, and it's hard for them to understand the conflict as they don't live here. Also, I believe i know about Palestinians life more than this people.
I will end in optimistic words from the hebrew kaddish, a paryer that is saying every day in the bible:

"May He who makes peace in His high places
grant [in his mercy] peace for us
and for all Israel; and say, Amen."
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:45 PM   #266
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Every time I read this, I am reminded of why these problems exist. Compromise. The whole situation would have been largely resolved by now if Israel had expelled the Arabs completely from the West Bank, the Sinai and parts of Lebanon they needed to secure their borders after the third (or at the latest, the fourth) genocidal war launched against them. They did more to improve and develop the Sinai in the short time they held it, then anyone has since the Romans left.

It's what everyone else did. How much outrage do you hear about the ethnic Germans being driven out of their lands because of the war? What happened to them was far worse, as one example, than anyone that ever happened to the Arabs. By ancient claims as well as right of conquest, Israel has a right to much more than it holds now.

Compromise is what destroys civilizations. And I've always maintained that Israel should regard Begin as the biggest traitor in it's history.

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Old 09-22-2010, 08:59 AM   #267
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by Tommy_Vercetti View Post
Every time I read this, I am reminded of why these problems exist. Compromise. The whole situation would have been largely resolved by now if Israel had expelled the Arabs completely from the West Bank, the Sinai and parts of Lebanon they needed to secure their borders after the third (or at the latest, the fourth) genocidal war launched against them. They did more to improve and develop the Sinai in the short time they held it, then anyone has since the Romans left.

It's what everyone else did. How much outrage do you hear about the ethnic Germans being driven out of their lands because of the war? What happened to them was far worse, as one example, than anyone that ever happened to the Arabs. By ancient claims as well as right of conquest, Israel has a right to much more than it holds now.

Compromise is what destroys civilizations. And I've always maintained that Israel should regard Begin as the biggest traitor in it's history.
on the other hand, the whole situation would have been largely resolved by now if Hamas and Hizbollah, supported by Iran and all Arab nations, expelled all settlers and Israeli forces from Palestinian territories and declared the state of Palestine's independence.
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:06 AM   #268
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Settlers believes that those lands belong to the Jewish people. I don't agree with them and most of people in Israel do not agree with them. Still, I think that Palestinians making too much of it.
oh really? you think?

I wonder how Israel would react if a large group of Palestinians settlers tried to settle in Tel Aviv, Haifa or Ashkelon under the protection of Palestinian armed forces.

I think Israelis would be making too much of it.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:48 AM   #269
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
oh really? you think?

I wonder how Israel would react if a large group of Palestinians settlers tried to settle in Tel Aviv, Haifa or Ashkelon under the protection of Palestinian armed forces.

I think Israelis would be making too much of it.
Well, first of all, there are lots of Palestinians like this, that are in Israel without permit. they are called illegal stayers. Something between 20,000 and 50,000.
You guys keep telling all the time about Israel not giving the Palestinians/Arab-Israelis rights, but show me another country which in its congress, there are people(who represents the arab population), the encouraged activities against the country.
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:53 PM   #270
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Well, first of all, there are lots of Palestinians like this, that are in Israel without permit. they are called illegal stayers. Something between 20,000 and 50,000.
You guys keep telling all the time about Israel not giving the Palestinians/Arab-Israelis rights, but show me another country which in its congress, there are people(who represents the arab population), the encouraged activities against the country.
show me another country which is breaking so many international laws and gets away with it.
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