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Old 08-31-2010, 08:18 PM   #211
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Aug 31 (Reuters) - Hamas Islamists in the Gaza Strip issued a statement on Tuesday claiming responsibility for a shooting attack that killed four Israelis in the occupied West Bank on the eve of peace talks in Washington.

The statement from the armed wing of Hamas, a group that opposes any dialogue with the Jewish state, said the "Qassam Brigades announces its full responsibility for the heroic operation in Hebron." (Reporting by Nidal al-Mughrabi; Writing by Allyn Fisher-Ilan in Jerusalem; Editing by Tim Pearce)


"Heroic operation.
They killed four civillians, two women, one of them pregnant.
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Old 08-31-2010, 09:05 PM   #212
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

should I be posting every single Palestinian casualty killed by Israeli forces here as well?
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Old 08-31-2010, 09:41 PM   #213
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

There are many people getting killed each day by amok runs etc. Here on MTF you have the feeling that Israelis are something special and each dead has to be reported.
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Old 09-01-2010, 04:43 AM   #214
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
should I be posting every single Palestinian casualty killed by Israeli forces here as well?
When IDF soldier kill a civillian Palestinian pregnant woman, declare that's exactly what they intended to do, and call it an heroic action - you probably should.


The kids in the photos are the orphans, BTW:




The fact that you can't distinquish between cold-blooded terrorism and the mistake of an army is mind boggling.

But you know, that wasn't even my point. The Hammas doesn't want peace. They can't even stand the idea of talking about peace. They don't want negotiations. They want to make demends, see those demend answered, and kill people whenever they don't get their way.

Hammas using terrorism to stop the peace talks had been happening for 20 years. Back in 1993-1996, whenever there was progressive between Israel and the Palestinians, they blew up another bus. And yet, Israel is blamed of war mongering.

The PA and Hammas are playing good cop, bad cop, and it is working.

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Old 09-01-2010, 04:20 PM   #215
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

The rush to claim responsibility is probably because whoever did it actually managed to hit something.
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:48 PM   #216
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Anothet shooting attack just a few minutes ago. Next to Ramala. Another car hit. Two people injured, their condition unknown.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:35 AM   #217
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Still shooting, all throughout the weekend. No casualties, so it isn't important that one rocket fell in front of a kindergarden, right?

And that's during peace negotiations.

Apperantly, the disagreement now is that the Palestinians disagree that the purpose of the peace talks would lead to the end of the conflict.

In other words, Israel wants a promise that after the agreement is signed and borders of the Palestinian state are decieded by both parties, that would be it - the Palestinians would have no further demends regarding anything in the Israeli state.

The Palestinians, however, refuse to commit to that principle. They want to set the borders for a Palestinian country, and only *then* discuss the right of the Palestinian refugees to come back to live in the *Israeli state*.

In other words, it would mean the conflict would never be solved.

I'm afraid that the Hamas and other extreme groups would never let Abu Mazan reach an agreement, he's not strong enough to make painful desicions. I really hope I'm wrong.

I've said before, I'd agree to give a lot of land back if that means this conflict is over, Israel and Palestine would be two different and seperate states, indpendent and unrelated. That means they can have zero demends to anything concerning Israel anymore.

Again, 800,000 Arabic Jews were driven out of their homes in Arabic countries in Egypt, Syria, Iran, before and after 1948. Nobody talking about a Jewish "Nakba" - they were driven away from their countries to Israel (leaving ALL of their money and property behind, and there were many many rich Jews in those countries), and lived in horrible conditions for a long time until they integrated into Israeli society.

Israel would waive its claim for compensation, and the Palestinian would waive their claims, to finally achieve peace. The Palestinian refugees can go back to Palestine, within the new Palestinian state borders.

The right to return would never happen. They know it too, the Palestinians leaders do not have the guts to tell their people that it is time to sign a deal and give up this pipe dream. That lack of courage will kill the chance to peace, as it has in the past.

Netanyaho will have to make some very tough desicions, including probably uproot many settlers from their home and resettle them elsewhere, giving up a part of Jerusalem as well.
Time for the Paletinians to prove they can do the same.

Israel has re-settled people twice in the past, as recent as a few years ago when we pulled out of Gaza. We have proven that we can do it. The Palestinian had proven nothing in all the years of negotiations, the terror never stopped, and no Palestinian leader ever declared what agreement, in their opinion, would the end of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

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Old 09-12-2010, 10:31 AM   #218
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Israel and Palestine: A true one-state solution
By George Bisharat
Friday, September 3, 2010


"Where is the Palestinian Mandela?" pundits occasionally ask. But after these latest Israeli-Palestinian peace talks in Washington fail -- as they inevitably will -- the more pressing question may be: "Where is the Israeli de Klerk?" Will an Israeli leader emerge with the former South African president's moral courage and foresight to dismantle a discriminatory regime and foster democracy based on equal rights?

For decades, the international community has assumed that historic Palestine must be divided between Jews and Palestinians. Yet no satisfactory division of the land has been reached. Israel has aggravated the problem by settling roughly 500,000 Jews in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, eliminating the land base for a viable Palestinian state.

A de facto one-state reality has emerged, with Israel effectively ruling virtually all of the former Palestine. Yet only Jews enjoy full rights in this functionally unitary political system. In contrast, Palestinian citizens of Israel endure more than 35 laws that explicitly privilege Jews as well as policies that deliberately marginalize them. West Bank Palestinians cannot drive on roads built for Israeli settlers, while Palestinians in Gaza watch as their children's intellectual and physical growth are stunted by an Israeli siege that has limited educational opportunities and deepened poverty to acute levels.

Palestinian refugees have lived in exile for 62 years, their right to return to their homes denied, while Jews from anywhere can freely immigrate to Israel.

Israeli leaders Ehud Olmert and Ehud Barak have admitted that permanent Israeli rule over disenfranchised Palestinians would be tantamount to apartheid. Other observers, including former U.S. president Jimmy Carter and South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu, have said that apartheid has already taken root in the region.

Clearly, Palestinians and Israeli Jews will continue to live together. The question is: under what terms? Palestinians will no more accept permanent subordination than would any other people.

The answer is for Israelis and Palestinians to formalize their de facto one-state reality but on principles of equal rights rather than ethnic privilege. A carefully crafted multiyear transition including mechanisms for reconciliation would be mandatory. Israel/Palestine should have a secular, bilingual government elected on the basis of one person, one vote as well as strong constitutional guarantees of equality and protection of minorities, bolstered by international guarantees. Immigration should follow nondiscriminatory criteria. Civil marriage between members of different ethnic or religious groups should be permitted. Citizens should be free to reside in any part of the country, and public symbols, education and holidays should reflect the population's diversity.

Although the one-state option is sometimes dismissed as utopian, it overcomes major obstacles bedeviling the two-state solution. Borders need not be drawn, Jerusalem would remain undivided and Jewish settlers could stay in the West Bank. Moreover, a single state could better accommodate the return of Palestinian refugees. A state based on principles of equality and inclusion would be more morally compelling than two states based on narrow ethnic nationalism. Furthermore, it would be more consistent with antidiscrimination provisions of international law. Israelis would enjoy the international acceptance that has long eluded them and the associated benefits of friendship, commerce and travel in the Arab world.

The main obstacle to a single-state solution is the belief that Israel must be a Jewish state. Jim Crow laws and South African apartheid were similarly entrenched virtually until the eves of their demise. History suggests that no version of ethnic privilege can ultimately persist in a multiethnic society.

Israeli perspectives are already beginning to shift, most intriguingly among right-wing leaders. Former defense minister Moshe Arens recently proposed in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz that Israel annex the West Bank and offer its residents citizenship. Knesset speaker Reuven Rivlin and Likud parliamentarian Tzipi Hotovely have also supported citizenship for West Bank Palestinians, according to the Haaretz. In July, Hotovely said of the Israeli government's policies of separation: "The result is a solution that perpetuates the conflict and turns us from occupiers into perpetrators of massacres, to put it bluntly."

Is one of these politicians the Israeli de Klerk? That remains to be seen. Gaza is pointedly excluded from the Israeli right's annexation debate. They still envision a Jewish state, simply one with a larger Palestinian minority. But their challenge to the two-state orthodoxy, which empirical experience has proven unrealistic, is healthy.

If Americans aspire to more than managing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict via perpetual and inconclusive negotiations, we should applaud this emerging discussion. Having overcome our own institutionalized racial discrimination, we can model the virtues of a vibrant, multicultural society based on equal rights. President Obama, moreover, would be a fitting emissary for this vital message.

The writer is a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco and a senior fellow at the Institute for Palestinian Studies.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090204665.html
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:35 AM   #219
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

Let me ask you something, Habibko.

In which other Muslim nation two different ethnic/religious managed to co-exist? Name one! The turks and the Kurds? Iraq Shi'a and Sunni? Your own country does not allow people from different religions to use religious symbols in public, let alone allow for freedom of religion.

Now, tell me where had such Muslim country managed to do that under a *democracy* and without violence?

I cannot respond to that option, never in the past had it been successful even between two ethnic groups which both follow the same teaching (Muhamad).

Heck, the UN just approveed Kosovo's request for independence. If one state is the best solution, why do the UN support that?

That is not an option.

BTW, this isn't the demend of the Palestinians. Never have they said they wanted one country in the model you've described.

We're talking about a country which execute people without a proper trial, and hang people who they accused in spying in the streets. They try to implement Sharia laws (at least in Gaza). What makes you believe they are ready to the kind of goverment which you suggested?

They conflict between Israel and the Palestinian requires an immidiate resolution, within the next two-three years. Israel does not have time to wait till the Palestinians decide they want to be more progressive and enlightened then the rest of the region and exist to co-rule with Israel in a democracy.

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Old 09-12-2010, 12:01 PM   #220
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Israelis would enjoy the international acceptance that has long eluded them and the associated benefits of friendship, commerce and travel in the Arab world.
Oh goody, goody, goody. But wait, I have already been to Israel, Egypt and UAE and have really not got any of the other Arab countries on my must-see list right now. And I am just a godless atheist.

The question is: could the hotel infrastructure in Tehran and Mecca deal with the large hordes of Jews that have waiting all their lives for a holiday in such places? Not to mention the ''trip of a lifetime'' to the tourist hotspots of Yemen.
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Old 09-12-2010, 12:57 PM   #221
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

One more thing I wanted to add.

Palestine as one state has happened before - before 1948. Yes, we had a forgien ruler, but everyone lived in one state.
However, there had been much violence toward Jews by Arabs. 1929, for example.

So, we tried that. It didn't work then, and I don't know what makes you think it could work today.

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Old 09-12-2010, 06:04 PM   #222
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Let me ask you something, Habibko.

In which other Muslim nation two different ethnic/religious managed to co-exist? Name one! The turks and the Kurds? Iraq Shi'a and Sunni? Your own country does not allow people from different religions to use religious symbols in public, let alone allow for freedom of religion.

Now, tell me where had such Muslim country managed to do that under a *democracy* and without violence?

I cannot respond to that option, never in the past had it been successful even between two ethnic groups which both follow the same teaching (Muhamad).

Heck, the UN just approveed Kosovo's request for independence. If one state is the best solution, why do the UN support that?

That is not an option.

BTW, this isn't the demend of the Palestinians. Never have they said they wanted one country in the model you've described.

We're talking about a country which execute people without a proper trial, and hang people who they accused in spying in the streets. They try to implement Sharia laws (at least in Gaza). What makes you believe they are ready to the kind of goverment which you suggested?

They conflict between Israel and the Palestinian requires an immidiate resolution, within the next two-three years. Israel does not have time to wait till the Palestinians decide they want to be more progressive and enlightened then the rest of the region and exist to co-rule with Israel in a democracy.
Shia and Sunna in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, and even in Iran have always lived peacefully together if you really want an example.

with international mediation and support it is possible, the conflict is ongoing with no end in sight anyway, the one-state resolution can't make it any worse.

but a country that is based on discrimination on its foundation like Israel would never agree to it.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:14 PM   #223
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Oh goody, goody, goody. But wait, I have already been to Israel, Egypt and UAE and have really not got any of the other Arab countries on my must-see list right now. And I am just a godless atheist.

The question is: could the hotel infrastructure in Tehran and Mecca deal with the large hordes of Jews that have waiting all their lives for a holiday in such places? Not to mention the ''trip of a lifetime'' to the tourist hotspots of Yemen.
I don't know about Tehran or Yemen but Makkah isn't open to any non-Muslims, although in essence only idolaters aren't allowed entry according to religious text and that shouldn't include Jews and Christians, that's how the government here applies it, the rest of the kingdom is open to all.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:38 PM   #224
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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Shia and Sunna in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, and even in Iran have always lived peacefully together if you really want an example.

with international mediation and support it is possible, the conflict is ongoing with no end in sight anyway, the one-state resolution can't make it any worse.

but a country that is based on discrimination on its foundation like Israel would never agree to it.
A) Saudi Arabia do not have a democracy, far from it.
B) Saudi Arabia isn't secular, far from it. Your country not only discriminate against other religious minorities, it does not give rights to secular minorities.
C) Shia and Sunna are still one religion.

What you have is very, very far from what you've suggested.

Frankly, I imagine the Jewish Orthodox and Muslim fantatics would find a way to co-exist peacefully, eventually.

It's the secular Jewish public I'm not so sure about.
How long it would take, do you think, till a secular Jewish man would be killed for sleeping with a Muslim girl before marriage, with the two societies mixed?

What about a gay pride parade in Jerusalem? One person, one vote = no parade.

I'm just giving you a few simple examples.

Israel, while a Jewish country, is still basically a secular society - definitly in Muslim terms.
Many in Palestine are not secular, and I can't see how sharing the same space would work.

Do you realize that the hard lefty organizations which protest against the seperation fence and in Arabic villages have special programs to deal with the sexual harassment of the female Jewish lefty activists by Muslim men whom they try to protect? (It's from Haaretz, look it up in the English version).

It's notjust Jews and Arabs, it's secular vs. Religious which is the main problem that concerns me. You can't seriously claim that can be solved by any kind of international mediation. You speak in general terms, I'm thinking in practical terms, it doesn't work.
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Old 09-12-2010, 06:48 PM   #225
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Default Re: And Israel is the aggressor...right.

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I don't know about Tehran or Yemen but Makkah isn't open to any non-Muslims, although in essence only idolaters aren't allowed entry according to religious text and that shouldn't include Jews and Christians, that's how the government here applies it, the rest of the kingdom is open to all.
They can enter, but they can't worship in public.

How about a country where women get rights as well?
Israel already implement it, maybe SA can follow suit. With international mediation, of course. After all, a little international mediation can cure anything, if it can cure the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as simply as you suggested, I'm sure it can help fixing the horrible discrimination of women in your country.

Last edited by Or Levy : 09-12-2010 at 07:03 PM.
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