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Old 05-20-2010, 04:52 PM   #46
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Oh so Denmark doesn't count as Scandinavia. OK then.

We're talking about cycling here, I know jackshit about other sports so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Not that you can say much about Norwegian and Swedish cyclists since they pretty much suck, but it's pretty significative that the biggest Swedish cyclist of the last years with Magnus Bäckstedt, Niklas Axelsson, went "beep" just months ago.
That's right, they are posers.

The doping of cycling is well spread out because you compete in international teams rather than national teams. But it still appears as though Spain and Italy are at the heart of the problem looking at the major doping networks and doping docs and listening to the whistleblowers. You're in denial if you do not think certain countries have a greater "expertise" in the subject.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

Bäckstedt was clearly a clean rider in a clean french team. Axelsson must have been corrupted by the evil italians. Larsson might be doping as well since he rides for mr 60%.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:56 PM   #48
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

How many books have been published about Lance doping,L'équipe is still hunting him,now it's Landis,funny, neither of them can come with anything to prove this allegations.
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Old 05-20-2010, 04:57 PM   #49
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

This is no stranger than certain countries having greater problems with corruption than others... Like Spain, Italy and Russia for example.
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Old 05-20-2010, 05:15 PM   #50
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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How many books have been published about Lance doping,L'équipe is still hunting him,now it's Landis,funny, neither of them can come with anything to prove this allegations.
L'Equipe revealed in 2005 that 6 urine samples belonging to Armstrong tested positive to EPO, but there was no EPO testing back then. Another french newspaper with a grudge Le Monde announced that a few witnesses had testified under oath (in his suit against his sponsor who refused to pay him for his win) that they'd seen him tell the doctors that he'd taken HGH, EPO etc...

He tested positive for Corticoid in 1999 and only showed a prescription, provided by his US postal doc, AFTER the test, even though he'd claimed a few days earlier he wasn't taking any medication.

Next year he strenghened his relation with his good friend Doctor Ferrari, infamous in cyclism for his work, and sent a nice check of 25 000$ to the ICU

Pretty much all his teamates in 2002 have been at some point or another implicated in a doping scandal.

In 2008 the French Anti Doping agency offered to restest the samples when he tried to come back to the tour but Armstrong politately declinced. No doubt he was just worried the evil French were trying to frame him again.

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Old 05-20-2010, 05:33 PM   #51
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Maybe when he has balls to be a man, I'll think of him differently but we know that won't happen.
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:12 PM   #52
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Old 05-20-2010, 07:27 PM   #53
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Mjau! View Post
That's right, they are posers.

The doping of cycling is well spread out because you compete in international teams rather than national teams. But it still appears as though Spain and Italy are at the heart of the problem looking at the major doping networks and doping docs and listening to the whistleblowers. You're in denial if you do not think certain countries have a greater "expertise" in the subject.
Perhaps the fact that Spain and Italy are the two biggest cycling countries has something to do with the number of cases.

In any case I haven't said a single word about doping in Spain or Italy yet. I am just refuting your claim that the countries you mention are any better. In terms of public and private fight against doping, Denmark must be the worst country in the world.

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Bäckstedt was clearly a clean rider in a clean french team. Axelsson must have been corrupted by the evil italians. Larsson might be doping as well since he rides for mr 60%.
Oh right! So if Scandinavians dope, it's not their fault, they were just corrupted by the evil meds... yeah, poor them.


Also, I find it funny how you first claimed northerners were cleaner and fairer, then narrowed it to Scandinavians, then only to Norwegians and Swedes, then only to Norwegians and Swedes that are not riding for corrupt southern teams that corrupt them... next thing you'll say is only riders from your hometown are clean.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 05-20-2010, 07:32 PM   #54
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by elessar View Post
L'Equipe revealed in 2005 that 6 urine samples belonging to Armstrong tested positive to EPO, but there was no EPO testing back then. Another french newspaper with a grudge Le Monde announced that a few witnesses had testified under oath (in his suit against his sponsor who refused to pay him for his win) that they'd seen him tell the doctors that he'd taken HGH, EPO etc...

He tested positive for Corticoid in 1999 and only showed a prescription, provided by his US postal doc, AFTER the test, even though he'd claimed a few days earlier he wasn't taking any medication.

Next year he strenghened his relation with his good friend Doctor Ferrari, infamous in cyclism for his work, and sent a nice check of 25 000$ to the ICU

Pretty much all his teamates in 2002 have been at some point or another implicated in a doping scandal.

In 2008 the French Anti Doping agency offered to restest the samples when he tried to come back to the tour but Armstrong politately declinced. No doubt he was just worried the evil French were trying to frame him again.
What L'Equipe and Le Monde had were accusations, not evidence.

Corticoid is not a performance-enhancing drug.

Note I am not saying Armstrong is clean, I believe he isn't, but until sufficient proof is brought out that implicates him, he deserves at least the benefit of the doubt.
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:20 PM   #55
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Har-Tru View Post
Perhaps the fact that Spain and Italy are the two biggest cycling countries has something to do with the number of cases.

In any case I haven't said a single word about doping in Spain or Italy yet. I am just refuting your claim that the countries you mention are any better. In terms of public and private fight against doping, Denmark must be the worst country in the world.



Oh right! So if Scandinavians dope, it's not their fault, they were just corrupted by the evil meds... yeah, poor them.


Also, I find it funny how you first claimed northerners were cleaner and fairer, then narrowed it to Scandinavians, then only to Norwegians and Swedes, then only to Norwegians and Swedes that are not riding for corrupt southern teams that corrupt them... next thing you'll say is only riders from your hometown are clean.
But they are clearly better! Much, much better. How many doping cases does Sweden & Norway have across sports compared to Spain & Italy? And how many of those are recent? I can only think of two. Axelsson who lived in Italy and competed for an italian team and a russian track athlete who changed her nationality to swedish after marrying a swede, while a list of spaniards and italian dopers in the 00's would be quite long. And more importantly, there is not a single case of organised doping a la Operacion puerto, Blood for oil, that recent spanish doping ring, the Liquigas thing, Manolo Saiz and Kelme etc, etc. There are no known swedish or norwegian doping docs like Fuentes, Ferrari, Cecchini, Conconi, Losa and so on. Furthermore, there are no whistleblowers telling tales of organized doping in swedish sports, unlike in your country where multiple cyclists and track athletes have done so. Of course, Fuentes also claims to have "treated" soccer players and tennis players and we know for a fact that italian soccer had a doping issue that may or may not be a thing of the past now. You are in deep, deep denial if you cannot see that these countries have a far more substantial doping problem than Sweden and Norway... Well, even Denmark since their doping cases seems to be limited to cyclists in foreign teams. I have not seen any evidence of systematic doping practices in Denmark, but there's plenty of evidence of this stuff going on in Italy and Spain, that is a fact. What is also a fact and an absolute disgrace to your country is that Eufemiano Fuentes, a man who was caught in possesion of thousands of doses of HGH, AAS & EPO wasn't even punished. Apparently, that wasn't a crime in Spain. But no, you don't have a doping problem out of the ordinary...

Well, if a swede who lives and trains in Italy and competes for an italian team dopes, perhaps it says more about Italy than Sweden?
Northeners is just another word for scandinavians, and yes, I was mainly referring to Sweden & Norway. I never argued that scandinavians are genetically predisposed to be more honest, nor that none of our athletes dope.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:42 PM   #56
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

Why wont you just admit that your country is rotten to the core while mine is a shining beacon of light? That's all I ask of you.
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:48 PM   #57
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Mjau! View Post
But they are clearly better! Much, much better. How many doping cases does Sweden & Norway have across sports compared to Spain & Italy? And how many of those are recent?
Again, we're talking about cycling here. If you want to talk about XC Skiing or Snooker or woman lifting, open another thread.

Quote:
I can only think of two. Axelsson who lived in Italy and competed for an italian team and a russian track athlete who changed her nationality to swedish after marrying a swede, while a list of spaniards and italian dopers in the 00's would be quite long. And more importantly, there is not a single case of organised doping a la Operacion puerto, Blood for oil, that recent spanish doping ring, the Liquigas thing, Manolo Saiz and Kelme etc, etc. There are no known swedish or norwegian doping docs like Fuentes, Ferrari, Cecchini, Conconi, Losa and so on. Furthermore, there are no whistleblowers telling tales of organized doping in swedish sports, unlike in your country where multiple cyclists and track athletes have done so.
Again, cycling is a minor sport in those countries, how can there be an organised doping network if there aren't even teams?

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Well, even Denmark since their doping cases seems to be limited to cyclists in foreign teams.
There AREN'T any Danish teams! Saxo Bank is the first big one ever, and allow me to raise my eyebrows at their cleanness seeing who they have as a manager.

Quote:
I have not seen any evidence of systematic doping practices in Denmark, but there's plenty of evidence of this stuff going on in Italy and Spain, that is a fact. What is also a fact and an absolute disgrace to your country is that Eufemiano Fuentes, a man who was caught in possesion of thousands of doses of HGH, AAS & EPO wasn't even punished. Apparently, that wasn't a crime in Spain.
Doping wasn't a crime in Spain at the time the OP came out. Serrano was just inforcing the law, he is not to blame. The authorities were to blame for not foreseeing this and not changing the law before (they did later).

Quote:
But no, you don't have a doping problem out of the ordinary...
No, we don't. Look at all the countries in cycling, you'll see the amount of cases and doping exposure increases exponentially as the number of riders and the volume of the sport increases.

Cycling races and, most importantly, training camps take place mostly in Southern Europe, doping networks will obviously be located there. A doping network in Norway would be hardly viable.

Quote:
Well, if a swede who lives and trains in Italy and competes for an italian team dopes, perhaps it says more about Italy than Sweden?
It says a lot, first and foremost, about the rider that dopes. No one forced him to do it. And again, there aren't any Swedish cycling teams, it's impossible for him to have doped on a home team. The fact is, he doped, and he's Swedish, but no, it's not his fault, it's just he was corrupted. For fuck's sake...
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 05-20-2010, 08:58 PM   #58
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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If the evidence against him is so overwhelming as you two say, then how come Lance hasn't been busted yet?
Why wasn't Bjarne Riis busted when he doped?

Quite simple. The tests are flawed and it's luck of the draw. Plus, there will be some under the table payments. Lance is rich. The UCI will be getting lots and lots of $$$$$.
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:13 PM   #59
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

I claimed that Spain & Italy are among the worst doping countries whereas Sweden & Norway has no doping problems to speak of looking at the hard and circumstantial evidence. You decide to counter this by...

* trivializing the doping practices in Spain & Italy.
* defending the doping practices in these countries by arguing that all the organised doping SHOULD be down there and most dopers SHOULD be spanish & italian. This is especially hilarious as you are basically saying I'm right. Now you're just being an apologist.
* claiming that "we're talking about cycling". Well, I sure wasn't. My comment was on doping in general, but just looking at cycling doesn't exactly put S&I in a better light at all. It does however allow you to...
*...state that the lack of organized doping, doping doctors and dopers (except for Axelsson obviously) in Sweden & Norway is just cos cycling is such a small sport up here, so you see, it doesn't really matter. I would like to counter this by saying there's absolutely zero evidence of systematic doping in the sports we do care about, some of them being endurance sports as well or power sports, but apparently, I'm talking about cycling here...

And you still haven't begun to show how Sweden & Norway are anywhere near as bad as Spain & Italy when it comes to doping. What you've produced so far is a mix of deflection, rationalization, apologetic drivel and just a thourough muddying of the waters. Well done!
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Old 05-20-2010, 09:17 PM   #60
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Default Re: Is it finally over for Lance Armstrong?

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Well, then he shouldn't masquerade as one.
Typical american then... they share the same upsetting lack of morals and sense of fair play. Unlike us honest northeners.

There was an AC in OP. A french newspaper said this was Contador and we all know the french are trustworthy.
Too good
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