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Old 10-06-2011, 11:35 PM   #196
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post


ECB together with the national central banks control monetary policy in the eurozone. Private banks don't have the authority nor the means to "create" money. Perhaps what you're talking about is the money multiplier for banks? However, this is in effect controlled by the ECB through the interest rate.
The central banks are essentially private, since they have almost no governmental oversight and are in fact owned by private banks.

Well, duh! Fractional Reserve Banking increases the money supply, thus, they are creating money.

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Legislation cannot control inflation and in the euro area, neither can fiscal policy since it doesn't really exist. Exchange rates also fluctuate and inflation rates affect these.
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Originally Posted by abraxas21 View Post
there are many reasons. inflation being the primary cause... there's a reason why most central banks are independent from the government.
The only reason inflation would skyrocket if the government created money without debt, instead of letting a bank create it and then borrow it at debt and interest, is if the government would be irresponsible enough to create way too much money, because there wouldn't be any national debt as a consequence of doing so ("only" inflation). Therefore, legislation limiting the expansion of the money supply can absolutely curb inflation. The prime cause of inflation is monetary expansion by CB's and FRB.

Quote:
What I meant is that a common currency in some European areas is good, however the membership should have been regulated more carefully.
Your contention is still that the eurozone would be all rosy if it wasn't the ACTUAL eurozone. It's an embarrassing retort to the claim that the eurozone was a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Yeah, inflation and exchange rate will note the artificial increase of the money stock.

Does Mjau actually think that the private banks just started printing out money that they didn't have ?
The money stock is being increased artificially every year.

That's EXACTLY what they do, you

Last edited by Mjau! : 10-06-2011 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 10-06-2011, 11:36 PM   #197
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

8 trillion $US was lent to the ECB between 2008 and 2010 by the federal reserve so that the ECB could keep it's tight, ham fisted grip on the euro economy and make the pigs squeal... 'here piggy piggy'... and someone tell me why the federal reserve would lend that to the ECB interest free when they will happily lend at interest to their own people...? good luck digging around for that answer...



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Old 10-06-2011, 11:43 PM   #198
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

It's a financial oligarchy.
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Old 10-06-2011, 11:46 PM   #199
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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It's a financial oligarchy.
attempted global plutocracy... they've really pulled the cloak and dagger on us...
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Old 10-07-2011, 12:03 AM   #200
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

in the 80's, bankers were topping themselves off the 34th story when a few million went missing, they knew that the lads down in cell block D weren't comfortable with using lubricant whenever they got that lovin' feeling... a couple of billion goes astray today and they're still pulling a 4 course meal later on that evening... what happened in twenty years...? where does this form of protection come from...?

is ok... you and your child will foot the bill...

greece is just a euro test run in the biggest transfer of wealth we've ever seen... however, in this edition, as governments allowed themselves to fall into debt, they now become the pseudo-debt collectors on behalf of the banks... believe it or not...

on a more positive note, at least the greeks are ripping shit up and torching the place like any self respecting people would...
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Old 10-07-2011, 12:04 AM   #201
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

Look how the North Dakota state bank has ruined the north dakotan economy!

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Old 10-07-2011, 12:41 AM   #202
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

Does this crisis mean British will no longer be able to afford Olympics?
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:23 AM   #203
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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Originally Posted by Mjau! View Post
The central banks are essentially private, since they have almost no governmental oversight and are in fact owned by private banks.

Well, duh! Fractional Reserve Banking increases the money supply, thus, they are creating money.

The only reason inflation would skyrocket if the government created money without debt, instead of letting a bank create it and then borrow it at debt and interest, is if the government would be irresponsible enough to create way too much money, because there wouldn't be any national debt as a consequence of doing so ("only" inflation). Therefore, legislation limiting the expansion of the money supply can absolutely curb inflation. The prime cause of inflation is monetary expansion by CB's and FRB.
The money multiplier is NOT the same thing as the process you described that banks just create the money out of thin air. Private banks cannot lend money that they don't have in their balance sheet. Besides the ECB sets the reserve ratios of the banks so in effect it also controls the money multiplier.

The process you're suggesting is akin to using gold as a measure of worth, and then when you run out, just mix it with other precious metals and think that the value will stay the same . The amount of gold in the society will remain the same still and it won't solve anything.

Economic growth creates more money in a society, not printing it.
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Old 10-07-2011, 10:23 PM   #204
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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Originally Posted by Lopez View Post
Private banks cannot lend money that they don't have in their balance sheet.
what is fractional reserve lending...?
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:43 AM   #205
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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Originally Posted by fast_clay View Post
what is fractional reserve lending...?
The banks have the money in their balance sheet... It's different than having the money if everyone wanted to withdraw it simultaneously . The loans are assets, most of which have been reinvested
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lol, who will beat him? Wawrinka? Berdych? Gulbis? Rosol? Federer?

Only Del Potro can take him out before the semis, and he won't. Nadal is winning the AO, bet your house on it.
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Old 10-08-2011, 03:44 AM   #206
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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The banks have the money in their balance sheet... It's different than having the money if everyone wanted to withdraw it simultaneously . The loans are assets, most of which have been reinvested
i don't dispute that... i know a fraction of a nations wealth is in circulation... and, i am no economic guru either... and, that may be a good thing... cos, i have nothing actually against a bank creating money via interest... growth needs the space to occur, that is without argument...

but there is no balance when a government's national wealth is controlled by a private bank... there is something very, very wrong with a government entering into debt with a bank, to pay a debt with a bank, only to later labour it's population with the burden of the debt they couldn't pay - aka, other banks that were 'too big to fail'...

when it is the government itself that should be the chief regulator of how much money should be in the economy (education and finance, and a big whatever to any other issue) finance alone, actually should be the primary function of a government... not the government being a function of the fractional reserve lending scheme that allows it's own federal reserve to reinvest in the ECB to the tune of US$8Trillion in order to keep things in shape across the water...

actually, i can't entertain too much discussion about the ECB since i have discovered it is merely a puppet bank...
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Old 10-08-2011, 11:43 AM   #207
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

Fitch has just lowered Spain's rating to AA-.

That leaves (Fitch / S&P / Moody's):

Spain: AA-/AA/Aa2
Italy: A+/A/A2
Ireland: BBB+/BBB+/Ba1
Portugal: BBB-/BBB-/Ba2
Greece: CCC/CC/Ca

Doesn't seem there really is anything such as a "PIIGS" group, the last 3 are in far worse shape than the other two, and Italy trails Spain by 1, 2 and 3 categories.

For comparison:

Japan: AA/AA-/Aa3
Israel: A/A+/A1
South Korea: A+/A/A1

We are still (all of us) very far away from the end of this crisis, of course, and the rates dropping yet further is still far more likely than any improvement.

In the meanwhile, two things are crystal clear:

- a lot of things have to change (both at national and international levels)

- there are many out there who would use the previous, undeniable, point to forward their own agendas... it isn't the public debt nor the wellfare state that have landed us in these dire straits (not to deny an effort has to be made to increase the efficiency of the social security system), and yet some are arguing that the only way forward is less (rather than more) regulation of the financial markets, and less (rather than more) social cohesion.

We have a big problem, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't beware of the vultures drawn by the smell of profit.
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Old 10-08-2011, 12:08 PM   #208
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

Don't fool yourself, the only thing that's crystal clear is that it's all the Germans's fault, while the hard-working, responsible PIIGS are merely victims of the system.
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:00 PM   #209
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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Don't fool yourself, the only thing that's crystal clear is that it's all the Germans's fault, while the hard-working, responsible PIIGS are merely victims of the system.
That's just ridiculous! The main responsibility for each country's shape is obviously it's own.

Quite another thing is if in truth there is anything such as PIIGS, and if anybody can boast absolute innocence of all this mess.

France and Germany simply waving aside the rules whenever they don't fit them is hardly solid ground for demanding others to toe the line, don't you think? But if you have a BCE that obviously gives precedence to serving those 2 main economies, the former stops being just a case of setting a bad example and takes on rather more worrying tones.

Whether you like it or not, Germany has been (a) the country that has benefited the most in Europe from all the cheap money others were spending, and (b) has been particularly conspicuous in cheering them on. That's why German banks are so badly caught up in everyone elses debts. Which is particularly telling in cases such as Spain's, where debt is due much less to government overspending than to the private sector's overbuying on credit due to the amount of cheap money being peddled by banks.

Nobody can feel smug about this mess.
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:06 PM   #210
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Default Re: Credit crisis in Greece, others to follow...?

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That's just ridiculous! The main responsibility for each country's shape is obviously it's own.

Quite another thing is if in truth there is anything such as PIIGS, and if anybody can boast absolute innocence of all this mess.

France and Germany simply waving aside the rules whenever they don't fit them is hardly solid ground for demanding others to toe the line, don't you think? But if you have a BCE that obviously gives precedence to serving those 2 main economies, the former stops being just a case of setting a bad example and takes on rather more worrying tones.

Whether you like it or not, Germany has been (a) the country that has benefited the most in Europe from all the cheap money others were spending, and (b) has been particularly conspicuous in cheering them on. That's why German banks are so badly caught up in everyone elses debts. Which is particularly telling in cases such as Spain's, where debt is due much less to government overspending than to the private sector's overbuying on credit due to the amount of cheap money being peddled by banks.

Nobody can feel smug about this mess.
Of course nobody can feel smug about it.

But have you stopped wondering why Germany is in a position to mandate in the first place? That's right, responsible government spending, dynamic private sector, off-the-charts productivity...
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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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