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Old 02-07-2010, 02:29 PM   #16
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

So much disinformation about this in the french media already it's not surprising it's even worse on MTF

The French Council of State has already ruled that a wife wearing a Burka, or other types of islamic veils, cannot,on its own, be grounds for a denial of citizenship for the husband. However, to gain French citizenship you have to show you're willing to adopt/assimilate, among others, the republican principles of equality between sexes. Her interview showed she lived in complete submission to her husband and the men in her family and it didn't even occur to her to question it.

Can't say I'm too sad a guy like that doesn't have French citizen ship, but those kinds of pseudo actions by our government are starting to piss me off.

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Old 02-07-2010, 02:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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Originally Posted by Echoes View Post
If you'd said it was a question of identification, I'd be OK. But don't bring me this shit again.

Anyway great decision that probably won't concern more than 3 persons in the whole country. The French definitely are a strange people.
Secularism is a very convenient excuse in France ATM, but it'd be ridiculous to deny how important it is for French people and to think every decision is down to anti muslim sentiment.
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

whoever wears a burka anywere except Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan deserves whatever she gets, and whoever forces them to do that deserve legal sentences, it is not part of Islam but only old traditions that should be dead already
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Old 02-07-2010, 05:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

Ah the French

... is there anyone more tolerate of other races/religions

... and how wonderful they act towards non white people in soccer matches

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Old 02-07-2010, 05:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
whoever wears a burka anywere except Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan deserves whatever she gets, and whoever forces them to do that deserve legal sentences, it is not part of Islam but only old traditions that should be dead already
How is someone choosing to wear something bad
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Old 02-07-2010, 05:59 PM   #21
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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Originally Posted by Rafa = Fed Killa View Post
How is someone choosing to wear something bad
what do you mean? it is not bad per se, I also believe a really secular and liberal society should allow women to wear veil wherever they want, that includes schools, college etc, and it's disgusting that girls who choose to wear such are persecuted in the name of secularism.

but the burka is another matter and has no place in Europe.
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Old 02-07-2010, 08:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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Old 02-07-2010, 08:53 PM   #23
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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Originally Posted by habibko View Post
whoever wears a burka anywere except Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan deserves whatever she gets, and whoever forces them to do that deserve legal sentences, it is not part of Islam but only old traditions that should be dead already

I see no reason to make an exception for these countries. The way women are degraded and persecuted there is intolerable. It has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with masculine hegemony and cruelty.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

Can't speak for Habibko but, perhaps he means that since you can actually get arrested in those countries if you don't wear a hijab or a Burka it's understandable that people don't want to take a risk. Whereas in other countries nobody can legally force you to do it.

Otherwise I agree with you, obviously, it's ridiculous that people pretend veils exist for another purpose than to control/enslave women. It's not exactly a rare thing in religion, though the bible really outdoes itself on this issue:

Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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Originally Posted by star View Post
I see no reason to make an exception for these countries. The way women are degraded and persecuted there is intolerable. It has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with masculine hegemony and cruelty.
I made an exception for them because it's the norm there for women and girls to cover their faces out of strict religious interpretations and strong cultural and social influence and pressure, even though it isn't that much the case anymore and it's the norm for more liberal cities like mine for girls to show their face in public, while older women keep covering their faces.

I'm not saying it's ok in such circumstances either, but it's understandable when they do it, for example my mother and sisters cover their faces here but take the burka off when they leave Saudia, so they wear it out of pressure and tradition and not because they believe it's a religious duty, and it's understandable in both cases.

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Can't speak for Habibko but, perhaps he means that since you can actually get arrested in those countries if you don't wear a hijab or a Burka it's understandable that people don't want to take a risk. Whereas in other countries nobody can legally force you to do it.

Otherwise I agree with you, obviously, it's ridiculous that people pretend veils exist for another purpose than to control/enslave women. It's not exactly a rare thing in religion, though the bible really outdoes itself on this issue:

Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
in the past you could be persecuted in Saudia and not so distant past by Taliban in Afghanistan, but it's better these days, anyway see above for my explanation..

the point is, wheather a girl wears the hijab out of piety or enslavement, it's her right to wear whatever she wants, that's what freedom, liberty and true secularism should be like.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

I thought you could still get in trouble if you dressed inappropriately in SA for example, are shorts and a tee shirt OK, for example, or are you fine only if all parts of your body are covered appart from your face/hair?

If she wears it out of "enslament" it's not what she wants and it can't really be a freedom for her to do so.

I understand that it's as much due to tradition as it can be to religion, but I struggle to find any logical reason to wear a veil. Full islamic veils on top of being highly impractical, completely cut you off from the world, it's barbaric. I've read stories of women who really do start wearing those types of veils without any external pressure, but to me it's like deciding to become a recluse and usually a sign of a deeper trouble...
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:07 PM   #27
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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Originally Posted by elessar View Post
I thought you could still get in trouble if you dressed inappropriately in SA for example, are shorts and a tee shirt OK, for example, or are you fine only if all parts of your body are covered appart from your face/hair?
yes you would get into trouble if you didn't wear a veil or an abaya in public, however it's less strict for non-Saudi women whom usually walk around with only an abaya and no veil on their heads, I've seen some Saudi girls go around like that as well, but surely you can't go around with a mini-skirt or shorts

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If she wears it out of "enslament" it's not what she wants and it can't really be a freedom for her to do so.

I understand that it's as much due to tradition as it can be to religion, but I struggle to find any logical reason to wear a veil. Full islamic veils on top of being highly impractical, completely cut you off from the world, it's barbaric. I've read stories of women who really do start wearing those types of veils without any external pressure, but to me it's like deciding to become a recluse and usually a sign of a deeper trouble...
I understand your point of view, though I'm sure you wouldn't be looking at it this negatively if you were brought up in SA for example, cultural/religious influence is a powerful force in determining what we consider right or wrong and how we view such issues, despite that freedom must be given to women who choose to disagree with you to make their own choices on what they decide to wear and what they won't, and yes I agree that enforcing any dress code of the like is barbaric and should only be out of self-conviction.
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:28 PM   #28
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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I understand your point of view, though I'm sure you wouldn't be looking at it this negatively if you were brought up in SA for example, cultural/religious influence is a powerful force in determining what we consider right or wrong and how we view such issues, despite that freedom must be given to women who choose to disagree with you to make their own choices on what they decide to wear and what they won't, and yes I agree that enforcing any dress code of the like is barbaric and should only be out of self-conviction.
But nevertheless, it is enforced there. And there are still honor killings in both countries. **** is a charge a woman will be reluctant to bring because she might well be the one who is punished for it. Women can't drive cars. It's a total lack of freedom for women.

And, of course, it's cultural. But slavery was also a cultural norm for Arabia as well as Europe and the Americas. That has been done away with (although I realize it was only rather recently for some countries on the peninsula. ) So, the idea that it is a cultural norm strikes me more of an excuse or a lack of will.
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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yes you would get into trouble if you didn't wear a veil or an abaya in public, however it's less strict for non-Saudi women whom usually walk around with only an abaya and no veil on their heads, I've seen some Saudi girls go around like that as well, but surely you can't go around with a mini-skirt or shorts
I always knew Mecca should have been in Alaska, would have been much easier to follow those rules there than in a scorching hot desert
Quote:
I understand your point of view, though I'm sure you wouldn't be looking at it this negatively if you were brought up in SA for example, cultural/religious influence is a powerful force in determining what we consider right or wrong and how we view such issues, despite that freedom must be given to women who choose to disagree with you to make their own choices on what they decide to wear and what they won't, and yes I agree that enforcing any dress code of the like is barbaric and should only be out of self-conviction.
It would, indeed, be difficult of me to pretend that being a women atheist raised in Europe has no bearing on my opinion of veils In general, I do try not to let my cultural upbringing influence my view of things and to see things from other people POVs but there are a few topics for which I find it more difficult than others. Veils are one of them and I just can't help wishing nobody would wear them, forced or not.
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:41 PM   #30
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Default Re: France refuses a citizenship over full Islamic veil

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But nevertheless, it is enforced there. And there are still honor killings in both countries. **** is a charge a woman will be reluctant to bring because she might well be the one who is punished for it. Women can't drive cars. It's a total lack of freedom for women.

And, of course, it's cultural. But slavery was also a cultural norm for Arabia as well as Europe and the Americas. That has been done away with (although I realize it was only rather recently for some countries on the peninsula. ) So, the idea that it is a cultural norm strikes me more of an excuse or a lack of will.
it is what it is, most women in Saudia seem to accept their conditions and that's what is delaying change, when an influencial man publicly suggested that it's time for women to drive women started campaigning in newspapers that they don't want to drive, it's hard to change the culture of societies when they are deeply conservative in nature.

anyway the thread isn't about the status of women in Saudia so we are heading off-topic now >__>

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I always knew Mecca should have been in Alaska, would have been much easier to follow those rules there than in a scorching hot desert
well they believe their heavenly rewards are proportional to their efforts according to Islamic belief so they don't mind that, props to them no?

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It would, indeed, be difficult of me to pretend that being a women atheist raised in Europe has no bearing on my opinion of veils In general, I do try not to let my cultural upbringing influence my view of things and to see things from other people POVs but there are a few topics for which I find it more difficult than others. Veils are one of them and I just can't help wishing nobody would wear them, forced or not.
I understand that =) but the vast majority of women in the Islamic world don't see it like you do.
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