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Old 12-13-2009, 10:22 PM   #106
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Are you gleeful about this ? If so, why ? What element of the socialist doctrine makes you feel so at peace ?
I cannot approach this question without also bringing in technological advancement into the equation. On a technological front it's about a future where we can eliminate the blue-collar worker; it's about making every person a potential scientist (etc.), a contributor to society, instead of another donkey. We are not yet at that point however, and without reaching that point true liberal-socialism is an unattainable dream on a practical level. It is however possible that I would live to see that future and that is enough for me to be happy with and to believe in (and to work towards) this particular ideology. I do however have reservations on present day socialism and on how realistic it is.
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Old 12-13-2009, 11:35 PM   #107
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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On a technological front it's about a future where we can eliminate the blue-collar worker; it's about making every person a potential scientist
Not even the most quixotic thinker would be ingenuous to such an extent as to suggest that every person possesses the intelligence quotient necessary to write, comprehend, and apply complex scientific formulas. Actually, given your scientific ambition, you would be well-advised to do a bit of reading on nature vs nurture as it relates to intellect. While there is no consensus on whether environmental or hereditary characteristics affect more greatly one's intelligence quotient, there is however a consensus when it comes to acknowledging that heredity does indeed factor into the equation.

Albert Einstein's theory of relativity did not come as a result of societal molding, but rather as a result of an innate level of intellect that most people could never hope to achieve, assuming one's level of intellect isn't shackled insomuch as there are inborn limitations on one's intellectual abilities.

We are all very different, and the uniformity which you propose sounds very similar in theory to eugenics. Some people are great with their hands, which is great as civilization needs construction workers, plumbers, and mechanics. To suggest that such individuals should instead become "potential scientists" is to infer that such work is less than dignified and must therefore be eliminated. Bankers and writers possess two very different sets of talent, chances are the writer isn't great with numbers while the banker is far from George Orwell.

Inherent in your mentality is a sort of condescension which sees it necessary to "rescue" others from what you deem to be inferior societal roles, instead suggesting that every man and woman ought to subscribe to a one-size-fits-all sort of system.
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:40 AM   #108
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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The answer to your first inquiry can be found in the United States, where candidates (be they Republican or Democrat) masquerade as tax-slashing, fiscal conservatives. Of course, after such politicians have been elected, their rhetoric is revealed as empty.

In fact, the animus toward higher taxes is so widespread that politicians are forced to wrangle with semantics in an effort to fool the public into believing that a tax increase isn't really a tax increase, even following its implementation. Barack Obama didn't get elected by promising to redistribute the money of the well-to-do, rather he waged unrelenting attacks against President Bush's foreign policy and promised to cut taxes for 95% of Americans.

Adults, even those who are not particularly wealthy, are resentful of the concept of free-loading or a welfare state (the two terms are fungible). After all, evil conservatives can rely no more upon the support of the rich than can magnanimous socialists rely exclusively upon the support of drug-addled college students. Ordinary people must support one or the other. Reagan Democrats are a primary example of such a fact -- blue-collar Americans who just wanted a bit of dignity and peace. They didn't want what little money they earned being confiscated and used to construct housing projects, so they supported an evil conservative.

How about Bill Clinton who declared the era of big government to be over after decreasing the capital gains tax rate and reforming the welfare system ? Such behavior is hardly an endorsement of "taxation" and "some degree of a welfare state". Has David Cameron promised to steal from the rich and give to the poor ?

I would actually reverse the question: Name a single candidate (who has actually been elected) who campaigned on tax increases and big government (i.e., welfare state) ?
Politicians claiming they'll cut taxes is irrelevant. It's minor details in the grand scheme of things. The socialist model (if that's how you chose to label the philosophy you describe) has won. They don't need to say "they'll steal from the rich and give to the poor" or whatever bullshit faux-anarchist way you want to phrase it. That taxes will remain is a given. Cameron doesn't have to say it explicitly. People know that any changes in the tax system under a Tory government will be miniscule, especially given the huge budget deficit running in the UK and everywhere else.

A degree of wealth resdistribution is necessary for the benefit of everyone. The millions of people who have lost their jobs in the last year, the currently "unproductive" are the same who will be working once countries emerge from recession. Their children are the workers of the future. It's in the interest of the "productive" that such people are protected from the worst excesses of the current financial hardship they find themselves in. They need to be healthy and fed, their kids need to be educated. Government is the institution in the strongest position to provide this protection. If they need to steal to accomplish it then so be it.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:09 AM   #109
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam



I think I´m a socialista economically axa. But then again most be a Brazil influenced thing because wealth here is poorly divided between the classes so I always believed in a strong estate to interfere both in some social problems and economical.

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.67

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Old 12-14-2009, 01:16 AM   #110
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam



Interesting. Not sure how much I trust that site and its interpretation of people's answers, though.
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:09 AM   #111
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

Amazing uniformity of Tought. Human herd.
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Old 12-14-2009, 06:38 AM   #112
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

As a matter of facth I still think I should be in the red one, but I would probably have to support death penalty in order for this to happen.
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Old 12-14-2009, 08:33 AM   #113
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam



Wow, I'm like close to Gandhi and Mandela. I don't consider myself that leftist but yeah whatever.
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Old 12-14-2009, 10:56 AM   #114
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

Rest my case.

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Everyone on MTF is in the bottom left corner. Never in doubt.
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The person who phrased these questions wanted specific answers for each of them:
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Old 12-14-2009, 11:02 AM   #115
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

"A big fat evil greedy company should not be allowed to massacre ten-thousand people for the sake of $1 extra profit."

Strongly Agree or Strongly Disagree?


Even Thatcher would appear in the bottom left box if questions were phrased like this.
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Old 12-14-2009, 12:02 PM   #116
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Interesting. Not sure how much I trust that site and its interpretation of people's answers, though.
I did it years ago & came out as a moderate left-liberal. This despite the fact I believe in an exclusively hereditary House of Lords, am a staunch monarchist, a cultural & educational elitist, oppose mass immigration & British membership of the E.U., loathe & despise political correctness with every fibre of my being, am broadly in favour of a largely free-market economy, & support traditional institutions such as marriage. It seems a realistic & mature attitude on issues such as recreational drugs & a (conservative) concern for the environment & a distrust of market fundamentalism were enough to outweigh all this. I think the problem is that they haven't even considered genuine small-c conservatism as a possible political outlook.
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Old 12-14-2009, 01:38 PM   #117
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Rest my case.
Well, it somehow all makes sense now. I'm a moderate Republican, yet people on this forum routinely portray me as a fierce ideologue. Perhaps it is not I who is guilty of such an offense, but rather those who register as being so far to the left that even they themselves are rendered incredulous by such a revelation. Cognitive dissonance is a succint way of describing such an affliction.

These people have been indoctrinated to such an extent that their views are out of touch with those of mainstream society. Case in point, I was accused of homophobia last year for supporting civil unions while daring to oppose same-sex marriage. I have been surrounded by liberals much of my life (Milano, Manhattan, Greenwich, and Palm Beach are not exactly conservative bastions), yet never have I encountered such radicalism.

Insanity.
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Old 12-14-2009, 02:44 PM   #118
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Armstrong says in-competition testing will never catch anyone, only out-of-competition testing and the blood passport can.

Tennis has no blood passport system, and does basically no out of competition testing.

The methods and drugs used by Armstrong in 1999 would work in tennis right now, with zero chance of being caught (not slightly surprising to anyone familiar with the topic, btw).
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Old 12-14-2009, 04:02 PM   #119
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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I'm a moderate Republican, yet people on this forum routinely portray me as a fierce ideologue.
first up, that's because you love your role on mtf with every fiber of your being and play it like nobody else. so better stop complaining, people might tone it down a notch and you on the other hand might need to up the ante to keep the shrine shining.

and secondly, as many have stated before, american politics has moved to the right over the last couple of decades - which is something the rest of the world has not. think about it: there is no party in the u.s. favoring universal health care. there is no party in the u.s. favoring straight up gun control. there is no party in the u.s. favoring straight up gay marriage. there is no party in the u.s. favoring legalized marijuana. there is no party in the u.s. favoring taxes for heavy polluters. there is no party in the u.s. favoring straight up higher taxes on the very richest 1%. we could go on like this for some time.

now, all of those points are taken care of by political parties outside the united states. so for someone inside the cocoon, yes, it might indeed seem like quite a contradiction to be labelled an ideologue. but for the rest of the planet, well, go figure. there is a extreme-right party and a centre-right-party in washington - period. that scenario is basically unheard of outside the states, which is why the reactions on mtf shouldn't surprise you that much.
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Old 12-14-2009, 07:07 PM   #120
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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I did it years ago & came out as a moderate left-liberal. This despite the fact I believe in an exclusively hereditary House of Lords, am a staunch monarchist, a cultural & educational elitist, oppose mass immigration & British membership of the E.U., loathe & despise political correctness with every fibre of my being, am broadly in favour of a largely free-market economy, & support traditional institutions such as marriage. It seems a realistic & mature attitude on issues such as recreational drugs & a (conservative) concern for the environment & a distrust of market fundamentalism were enough to outweigh all this. I think the problem is that they haven't even considered genuine small-c conservatism as a possible political outlook.
Yeah, it's not particularly scientific. It looks like one of those stupid tests you get on social networking sites. The problem isn't just the questions, it's also how your answers are interpreted. How can they seriously think answers are so black or white?
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