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Old 12-12-2009, 05:02 PM   #31
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

"liberal" is a confused outdated notion. There's a big difference between liberal in the social and liberal in the economic sense. Those who are one tend not to be the other.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by JolánGagó View Post
What you call Italian "liberals" aren't called so in Italy or anywhere in Europe
Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that I was born in Europe and visit regularly. As for the semantics, I would like to think that my level of familiarity with the Italian language is such that I would be able to recognize the context in which 'liberale' and 'socialista' are used. The fact that you speak so broadly of Europe is, in and of itself, a revealing statement. It is as though you have chosen to disregard altogether linguistic and geographical differences.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:10 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by JolánGagó View Post
I understand that. You're a true conservative, while The Economist is the world beacon of liberalism (European sense). While both schools of Tought are "right wing" they sharply diverge in several core principles.
I am not a true conservative by American standards. I endorse gun control, oppose abortion and the death penalty, oppose euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide, oppose war, oppose affirmative action, oppose gay marriage and adoption, etc.

I am hardly anything "standard" on the American political spectrum.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

yeah, not wise to use Europe as blanket term here as with most other debates. Thatcher certainly isn't referred to as a liberal in the UK too often for example
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:11 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

Just for the record, a similar dichotomy exists in American culture: libertarianism (adherence to classical liberalism) and liberalism (adherence to modern, politically correct liberalism).
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:15 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

true libertarians in the US seem to be a dying breed from my outside, barely interested perspective. It relates to Tommy V's post yesterday about the increasing issues becoming attached to identification with the 2 major parties.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:23 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
true libertarians in the US seem to be a dying breed from my outside, barely interested perspective. It relates to Tommy V's post yesterday about the increasing issues becoming attached to identification with the 2 major parties.
To the contrary, I would say. Although libertarianism does tend to be more popular among those who are well-educated, fiscally conservative, and socially liberal. Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, George Will, and a number of other prominent figures are self-described libertarians. However, in the context of ordinary Americans, libertarianism has never been particularly popular. Ron Paul's popularity is at an apex, as a relatively large number of Americans (those who live in states where his name was included on the ballot) supported him in 2008.

It's not a practical political stance, so I suppose this might explain the reluctance of ordinary people to support it. It's generally viewed as rooted in theory rather than practice.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:44 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
"liberal" is a confused outdated notion. There's a big difference between liberal in the social and liberal in the economic sense. Those who are one tend not to be the other.
It is confused because it's so often misused, above all by the clueless media. It isn't outdated at all, the body of work of classic liberalism and the principles it stands for are pretty clear and much in force.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:50 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by prima donna View Post
Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that I was born in Europe and visit regularly. As for the semantics, I would like to think that my level of familiarity with the Italian language is such that I would be able to recognize the context in which 'liberale' and 'socialista' are used. The fact that you speak so broadly of Europe is, in and of itself, a revealing statement. It is as though you have chosen to disregard altogether linguistic and geographical differences.
Totally irrelevant, there are millions Italians living in Italy that wouldn't tell your socialist from your comunist. Fact is, despite your European origin and frequent travel, you show scarce understanding of the meaning of the word "liberal" throughout Europe, as opposed as in America. I have no inclination to further educate you on the issue.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:50 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
the guardian is my favorite british paper. i don't read much politics/news on their website but the sports section is out of this world. fantastic coverage. their minute-by-minute reports for example are hilarious.
I agree it is out of this world, in some never-never land.

My best memory is the 2002 World Cup when their reporter wrote a long piece about how much he was excited about the quarterfinals, when the real football began. He was particularly creaming his pants over the thrilling matchup coming between Germany and Mexico. Of course, this being the Grauniad, even the sports pages are written by political hacks and this idiot wrote his piece before the round of sixteen match between Mexico and the US. Which the US won in fine style, before narrowly losing to Germany in the quarters. I laughed my ass of at that one.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:57 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by Henry Chinaski View Post
Thatcher certainly isn't referred to as a liberal in the UK too often for example
Tricky because you have a named "liberal" party there, which wasn't Maggie's one. The general public use of "liberal" is tainted thus. Ideologically, in the serious liberal media and Academia, Thatcher is considered a basically liberal politician and ideologue.
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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I am tired of my points made on "Comment is Free" on the Guardian being removed by moderators. I posted nothing insulting or incorrect. Some liberal ultra-sensitive politically correct person who can't take the heat reports you and the post is just deleted.
What sort of remarks did they delete? Can you give us an example or two? Thanks.

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To the contrary, I would say. Although libertarianism does tend to be more popular among those who are well-educated, fiscally conservative, and socially liberal. Milton Friedman, Thomas Sowell, George Will, and a number of other prominent figures are self-described libertarians. However, in the context of ordinary Americans, libertarianism has never been particularly popular. Ron Paul's popularity is at an apex, as a relatively large number of Americans (those who live in states where his name was included on the ballot) supported him in 2008.

It's not a practical political stance, so I suppose this might explain the reluctance of ordinary people to support it. It's generally viewed as rooted in theory rather than practice.
I agree with this. It's not accurate to say that libertarians in America are a 'dying breed.' They can't be found in every single socioeconomic stratum, but then that was never the case.
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:18 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by JolánGagó View Post
Fact is, despite your European origin and frequent travel, you show scarce understanding of the meaning of the word "liberal" throughout Europe, as opposed as in America. I have no inclination to further educate you on the issue.
It is you who chooses to ignore geographical boundaries by speaking glibly and broadly of European political culture. Eastern European and Western European culture, for example, are not to be compared. Linguistic distinctions and cultural origins are significant inasmuch as an Italian probably would be in a better position to interpret the contextual usage of 'liberale' and 'socialista'. Yet, your obstinance precludes you from recognizing something so fundamental. There is no consensus that Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, or any other conservative politician was really a misunderstood liberal, this is an illusion.

Moreover, with regard to the notion that Margaret Thatcher can be considered liberal (libertarian would be appropriate), this is yet another revealing statement in that the very nature of politics is such that any democratic (small d) leader must compromise, thereby deviating from a sort of ideological prism. Absolutism is congenial only to dictatorships. Thatcher, unlike many libertarians, did not adhere to a doctrine of pacifism during her tenure. Libertarians are generally strict adherents of capitalism, pacifist-leaning, and socially moderate, if not liberal. Adam Smith is the father of libertarianism, yet not even he was as naive to the perils of unfettered capitalism as many libertarians seem to be, nor were Thatcher or Reagan in any position to impose unfettered capitalism upon their citizens. The list goes on and on, but it is not my goal to engage in esoteric discussion, rather to inform you that, much like paradise and unicorns, "true" libertarianism exists only in the realm of contemplation.
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Old 12-12-2009, 06:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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Originally Posted by Bibberz View Post

I agree with this. It's not accurate to say that libertarians in America are a 'dying breed.' They can't be found in every single socioeconomic stratum, but then that was never the case.
Right, my statement was poorly worded. Of course, there are libertarians of every socioeconomic background, but I think the concept is most actively accepted by a more sophisticated crowd (i.e., academics). Milton Friedman isn't exactly Sarah Palin, for example. Libertarianism is, in my view, the tool of the thinking man, one who is disillusioned with the fiscal profligacy of the Democratic Party, yet disheartened by the social conservatism of the Republican Party.

Prominent libertarian writers:
George Will (former Harvard professor)
Thomas Sowell (former Cornell and Stanford professor)
Milton Friedman (University of Chicago, the Adam Smith of his time)
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Old 12-12-2009, 08:09 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Guardian is a filthy liberal rag and "Comment is Free" is a scam

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much like paradise and unicorns, "true" libertarianism exists only in the realm of contemplation.
Yes, but that can be said of any notion. Trueness is difficult to attain.
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