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Old 10-05-2009, 12:39 AM   #61
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Originally Posted by Ilovetheblues_86 View Post
Killing other animals is a barbaric act but since we are still barbaric people I must cope with that XD
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:54 AM   #62
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Originally Posted by Ilovetheblues_86 View Post
Killing other animals is a barbaric act but since we are still barbaric people I must cope with that XD
Most rapists would agree with this reasoning.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:51 AM   #63
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Originally Posted by GlennMirnyi View Post
It took some time for the holier-than-thou, sanctimonious attitude of vegetarians to kick in.
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Not at all. I have strong views about eating meat and I do what is right for me. I'm not trying to convert anyone and I've mentioned it on this thread only because it is a thread about vegetarianism. I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I don't eat meat. It's my business really and I don't have to justify it to you anymore than you have to justify eating meat to me.
I'm not going to pretend, I think as a moral choice vegetarianism is correct. If I didn't I wouldn't be a vegetarian. So yeah Gustavo, of course they can come across as feeling morally superior but that is simply because on this issue many vegetarians feel they are. That is natural enough. If someone is very much against torture for information or police brutality or suchlike then it is usually due to a moral belief on their part. The fact that in a discussion of such an issue the person I talk of may come across as holier-than-thou is because they feel they are standing up for the rights of people over a violent option.
Of course therefore when people fight for the rights of animals and see them as important they are going to come across as thinking themselves morally superior, because on the issue they are standing up for the rights of a creature in the face of violence.
I'm different to Cloudygirl because unlike her I would be delighted to convert people if it was possible. That doesn't mean I think I'm better than people either. That means I think I'm in a morally superior position on this issue.
If it comes across as a holier-than-thou, sanctimoniuos view then so be it, it doesn't concern me, or at least, I can't do anything about it.
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:37 PM   #64
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Originally Posted by guille&tati4life View Post
I'm not going to pretend, I think as a moral choice vegetarianism is correct. If I didn't I wouldn't be a vegetarian. So yeah Gustavo, of course they can come across as feeling morally superior but that is simply because on this issue many vegetarians feel they are. That is natural enough. If someone is very much against torture for information or police brutality or suchlike then it is usually due to a moral belief on their part. The fact that in a discussion of such an issue the person I talk of may come across as holier-than-thou is because they feel they are standing up for the rights of people over a violent option.
Of course therefore when people fight for the rights of animals and see them as important they are going to come across as thinking themselves morally superior, because on the issue they are standing up for the rights of a creature in the face of violence.
I'm different to Cloudygirl because unlike her I would be delighted to convert people if it was possible. That doesn't mean I think I'm better than people either. That means I think I'm in a morally superior position on this issue.
If it comes across as a holier-than-thou, sanctimoniuos view then so be it, it doesn't concern me, or at least, I can't do anything about it.
Do you use leather shoes, handbags or any other item?
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:18 PM   #65
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Do you use leather shoes, handbags or any other item?
Can't answer for Paul on that one - but from my point of view - no I do not use anything like that. I won't wear leather or fur, and only use cosmetics and household cleaning items etc that do not use animal products nor are tested on them. Some people may think that's extreme, but I find it hard to justify doing one without the other

Like Tori, I don't try to convert people - my views are my own, and how I choose to live my life is my own personal decision, and others are free to make theirs too. Having said that, whilst I can respect the choices of those who wish to eat meat, there is no way in the world I can ever condone or accept the barbaric treatment of animals such as veal calves and battery hens, no matter how much some people may try to rationalise or excuse it. Accepting or even agreeing with such blatant cruelty to another living creature is just disgusting and unforgiveable imo At least there is an argument that says a free-range hen or other well-cared-for farm animal can live a happy and free life, - as ilovetheblues said "My uncle has a cattle farm, (but they don´t suffer, they only die young"), but the unthinking cruelty of some practices involved in some meat production is unforgiveable to me.

And if people think this makes me "holier-than-thou" or sanctimonious - then let them think it - I truly don't care for the opinions of those I don't respect, and I find it hard to respect people who support unnecessary cruelty
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:36 PM   #66
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Originally Posted by *Ljubica* View Post
Can't answer for Paul on that one - but from my point of view - no I do not use anything like that. I won't wear leather or fur, and only use cosmetics and household cleaning items etc that do not use animal products nor are tested on them. Some people may think that's extreme, but I find it hard to justify doing one without the other
I don't think it's extreme, i think it's consistent. If someone's reason for not eating meat is the apalling treatment of animals then same reason must apply for not using leather products and cosmetics tested in animals. Otherwise is hypocrisy.

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Having said that, whilst I can respect the choices of those who wish to eat meat, there is no way in the world I can ever condone or accept the barbaric treatment of animals such as veal calves and battery hens, no matter how much some people may try to rationalise or excuse it. Accepting or even agreeing with such blatant cruelty to another living creature is just disgusting and unforgiveable imo
Yes, the treatment of virtually all animals bred for human consumption is disgraceful.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:41 PM   #67
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Do you use leather shoes, handbags or any other item?
I have used leather in the past but as a rule try to avoid it. I am against hunting/killing for leather just as I am against hunting/killing for meat. I couldn't tell you if my football boots or trainers have leather in them and certainly in the past I have had leather shoes. I do however see leather as a different matter. As far as I am aware (and I'm no expert on it) leather is not really what an animal is killed for. If this is the case and animals are just used for leather when they either die or are killed for meat or other reasons then I do not see it as the same thing at all. In my opinion once an animal is dead I have no problem with the remains being used for other purposes I only have a major problem if the animal is killed for the purpose of using them.

If for example human skin could make great leather then I have no problem with my skin being used for that once I'm dead, I only have a problem with it if someone kills me in order to use my skin. In much the same way the creation of leather after the death of animal does not greatly concern me, it only would do if the animal was killed for the leather.
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:43 PM   #68
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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I don't think it's extreme, i think it's consistent. If someone's reason for not eating meat is the apalling treatment of animals then same reason must apply for not using leather products and cosmetics tested in animals. Otherwise is hypocrisy.
Exactly my views. And whereas I realise that in some places, alternative products are not available, - in the UK and most of Europe they are, and even though they're usually more expensive, I've made a choice to buy them. Again - not "preaching" to others to do likewise - just my personal choice.

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Yes, the treatment of virtually all animals bred for human consumption is disgraceful
Sadly you're right. And this is mainly because so many people have no empathy or sympathy for the feelings or suffering of others, whether animal or fellow human. I see it in my job every day
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Old 10-05-2009, 03:48 PM   #69
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I have used leather in the past but as a rule try to avoid it. I am against hunting/killing for leather just as I am against hunting/killing for meat. I couldn't tell you if my football boots or trainers have leather in them and certainly in the past I have had leather shoes. I do however see leather as a different matter. As far as I am aware (and I'm no expert on it) leather is not really what an animal is killed for. If this is the case and animals are just used for leather when they either die or are killed for meat or other reasons then I do not see it as the same thing at all. In my opinion once an animal is dead I have no problem with the remains being used for other purposes I only have a major problem if the animal is killed for the purpose of using them.

If for example human skin could make great leather then I have no problem with my skin being used for that once I'm dead, I only have a problem with it if someone kills me in order to use my skin. In much the same way the creation of leather after the death of animal does not greatly concern me, it only would do if the animal was killed for the leather.
Well very convenient, I must say. The animal is killed and everything that can be used is used, as simply as that. The cow isn't killed "for meat" and leather just happened to be there, no. It is an industry, working for profit, if the leather isn't used then perhaps the meat isn't profitable, or have to be sold very expensive. Your stance is akin to those that only eat the shitty ground meat mixed with fat and any other crap they can possibly use from the dead animal and then say "Oh I just eat this shit cuz it was there anyway, the cow wasn't killed for this crap, it was killed for the tenderloin and the chops"

Your vegetarian ethic doesn't seem very solid to me, to say the least.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:01 PM   #70
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Well very convenient, I must say. The animal is killed and everything that can be used is used, as simply as that. The cow isn't killed "for meat" and leather just happened to be there, no. It is an industry, working for profit, if the leather isn't used then perhaps the meat isn't profitable, or have to be sold very expensive. Your stance is akin to those that only eat the shitty ground meat mixed with fat and any other crap they can possibly use from the dead animal and then say "Oh I just eat this shit cuz it was there anyway, the cow wasn't killed for this crap, it was killed for the tenderloin and the chops"

Your vegetarian ethic doesn't seem very solid to me, to say the least.

In terms of convenience it has nothing to do with that. I barely use leather at all I used a lot more meat before I became vegetarian than I ever have used leather. Convenience is really not a concern in this issue.

My reason for not eating meat is the murder of animals. The fact that they are kept in terrible conditions is secondary to that. I have an issue with the idea of meat, I see it as wrong, killing for food or leather I see as wrong. I have no issue with the idea of leather as long as leather is used after an animal has died and has not been killed for that purpose. There is no problem that I see in waiting until an animal dies and producing leather from the skin. The leather which is used often comes from animals which are slaughtered for food. You think they are slaughtered for leather? Well, I question that. Animals are from what I have been able to find out on the issue used for leather sometimes outwith the meat industry after their death, animals who die of natural causes are used for leather too. It seems to me that the leather industry uses dead animals but does not murder animals (although it relies on the murder of animals to increase production).

The treatment of animals by these industries while alive is unacceptable and should be changed, however, that is a problem with the manner in which the producers run the industry, not a problem with the industry itself. Campaigning for a change in the treatment of animals is perfectly rational without campaigning for the end of the leather industry.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:08 PM   #71
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So you think leather is from cows who die of old age well it isn't, not to mention many other animals bred specifically for leather and/or fur.

If that explanation is good for you, so be it. It isn't up to me to question your reasons for being vegetarian. However I foresee some serious hurdles in your vegetarianism-preaching endeavour with such a weak ethical basis
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:22 PM   #72
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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So you think leather is from cows who die of old age well it isn't, not to mention many other animals bred specifically for leather and/or fur.

If that explanation is good for you, so be it. It isn't up to me to question your reasons for being vegetarian. However I foresee some serious hurdles in your vegetarianism-preaching endeavour with such a weak ethical basis
No, I do not believe that leather is from them. I do however know of parts of the leather industry which comes outwith the meat industry. I criticize the concept of any animals bred to be killed for leather or fur or meat. If animals who die of natural causes are used for leather (and think what you will but I have certainly been given indications from organisations that sometimes they are) then I have no issue with it. The real question is if animals are killed for meat and leather or killed for meat then used for leather. In my opinion the animals would be killed for the meat in any event and thus the creation of animals for leather is an irrelevant addition.

On the contrary it is up to you to question my reasons and to educate me on how you view the leather industry. It changes perceptions. If you see the leather industry as morally reprehensible then you should tell people that. As you can no doubt see from my first post on the subject I am uncomfortable with leather and perhaps also see from my replies that I have examined the subject to try to answer my problems with the leather industry and to weigh up whether I believe I should boycott it. People like you questioning my decision is a necessity which vegetarians, vegans and other activists should be more willing to embrace than to criticise as "preaching". The better people are educated on the stance of such groups and their reasons for having the stance the more likely people will take up the stance and therefore if you see it as morally correct, then the better.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:31 PM   #73
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Well then I think you must work on your arguments if you want other people to follow your choice. Your explanation about why you treat differently meat and leather is very unconvincing and smacks of convenience.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:42 PM   #74
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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I'm not going to pretend, I think as a moral choice vegetarianism is correct. If I didn't I wouldn't be a vegetarian. So yeah Gustavo, of course they can come across as feeling morally superior but that is simply because on this issue many vegetarians feel they are. That is natural enough. If someone is very much against torture for information or police brutality or suchlike then it is usually due to a moral belief on their part. The fact that in a discussion of such an issue the person I talk of may come across as holier-than-thou is because they feel they are standing up for the rights of people over a violent option.
Of course therefore when people fight for the rights of animals and see them as important they are going to come across as thinking themselves morally superior, because on the issue they are standing up for the rights of a creature in the face of violence.
I'm different to Cloudygirl because unlike her I would be delighted to convert people if it was possible. That doesn't mean I think I'm better than people either. That means I think I'm in a morally superior position on this issue.
If it comes across as a holier-than-thou, sanctimoniuos view then so be it, it doesn't concern me, or at least, I can't do anything about it.
Of course you do. You phony vegetarians may feel superior because of that, but you are not. You think about the well-being of animals but couldn't care less about homeless and poor people. That's just bizarre and I must say, morally flawed and escapist. If you vegetarians were so much against torture and police brutality, you'd do something about the work ethics of you own countries' anti-terrorist squads. Of course you couldn't care less and of course you prefer to talk about animals. Why do you even use electricity then? Every kind of power plant contaminates and kills animals in some way or another. Don't you feel your reasoning only works one way? You also probably don't care that pesticides kill animals too.

You're all living in another universe. Violence and brutality is nature's rule. That's what your "defenseless" animals do to each other every single day.

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So you think leather is from cows who die of old age well it isn't, not to mention many other animals bred specifically for leather and/or fur.

If that explanation is good for you, so be it. It isn't up to me to question your reasons for being vegetarian. However I foresee some serious hurdles in your vegetarianism-preaching endeavour with such a weak ethical basis
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Old 10-05-2009, 05:19 PM   #75
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Default Re: World Vegetarian Day

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Of course you do. You phony vegetarians may feel superior because of that, but you are not. You think about the well-being of animals but couldn't care less about homeless and poor people. That's just bizarre and I must say, morally flawed and escapist. If you vegetarians were so much against torture and police brutality, you'd do something about the work ethics of you own countries' anti-terrorist squads. Of course you couldn't care less and of course you prefer to talk about animals. Why do you even use electricity then? Every kind of power plant contaminates and kills animals in some way or another. Don't you feel your reasoning only works one way? You also probably don't care that pesticides kill animals too.

You're all living in another universe. Violence and brutality is nature's rule. That's what your "defenseless" animals do to each other every single day.
I happen to agree with you, we are part of nature and as an omnivore species it's only natural for us to kill animals and consume them, that's the way it has always been, if we didn't kill them another animal in the wild will do that in our place, lions don't ask for permission when they shred that deer to pieces.
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