[Guga_fan]

I think that on early 2008 and late 2007 he was a much more complete baseliner, and at that time he really was a better version of Davydenko, and he had a great defense. After he changed his racquet his game changed a lot, his forehand has much less capacity to counter punch and his backhand down the line is way worse than it used to be, and his return of serve is also worse.
Nowadays I think Rafa is the most complete baseliner, but when Djokovic's game click he gets that spot. It's rare seeing his game click these days though.

[Clay Death]

Originally Posted by Commander Data

My point is that Nadal's baseline Game is better since it brought him 5 Slams more a nr. 1 spot complete dominance on one surface and a 13:4 record against Djokovic. His forehand is technically much better then djokovic's exactly because it earned him the above advantages. His backhand I would rate almost on a par.

finishingmove i think commander data may have a point. lets look at a little differently:

1. Clay Monster does not have a big serve.

2. He does not return all that well on quicker surfaces. Tsonga who has faced him a few times said just that yesterday. we dont need anybody to tell us. we can see this for ourselves.

3. he doesnt particularly have a formidable net game. he hits too many drop volleys at the net and other times tries to guide them. still other times, he lack the confidence to go forward

so what gives? how is he able to win slams (6) on all surfaces? how is he able to have the best record on hard courts like he did last year of all the players? and hard courts are supposed to be his worst surfaces.

bottom line: it is has to be his ground game. its not just all offense. defense has to be taken into account as well. and as commander data says, how do you account for that 13-4 head to head record.

it cant be all mental. you do have to actually produce on the court. no doubt in his heart of hearts, he probably believes if he plays close to his best, he will win most of the time if not all the time.

strangely enough, most of the other players probably feel the same way going into a match against him. most hate to see him across the net in a best of 5 sets match no matter the surface. and it is nice to have that mental edge but at the end of the day, he still has to produce.

that production is his consistent ground game. at this point in time, i see nobody better off the ground than him. his ground game comes through for him time and again.

his movement gets him there and his topspin gives him the consistency he needs to win. his mind tells him to fight to the death out there.

in his last match against Djokovic on clay, Clay Monster was winning better than 60% of the rallies that went for more than 8 shots. i am sure those numbers get a lot more ridiculous when roland garros rolls around.

[tnosugar]

Originally Posted by Priam

Djoker certainly has the tools but his fitness is still suspect. I don't trust him in tight best of 5 matches.

his fitness seems to have improved a lot. I expected him to be tired in the Madrid opener, but he looks ok. After Hambur and RG one will be able to tell whether the new training schedule and fitness coach are panning out.

I think that if he was indeed the best baseliner he should be beating Nadal in the baseline game. Currently he is not, since saying that someone is technically the best does not mean much. The way you use your legs, position yourself, read the serve, etc is also a matter of technique, not just your FHs and BHs in a baseline slugfest. He is in the top 3 however, probably in the top 2.

[finishingmove]

i'm not counting the mental factor here, on which nadal is overdosing right now.

it's a huge factor in tennis, bigger than u hold it to be, CD.

[Pfloyd]

Maybe on HC alongside with Murray. On Clay and Grass Nadal is a step above Djokovic and Murray at the moment.

[Fumus]

Originally Posted by finishingmove

well the bolded part is true, i doubt we can build a discussion on that, though...

davydenko is like a poor version of djokovic in everything he does. i don't know how u came up with him being a better baseliner.

It took you the better part of five minutes to come up with 3 sentences? I'm glad you notified me before you did. You are mistaken about Djokovic's patterns of play, which are the X and Os of how tennis players win points. When do you see Djokovic taking balls on the rise and forcing opponents to run side to side ala Davydenko or Nalbandian? Just how does Djokovic wins points, then? He out maneuvers his opponents. As you have noted he's a complete player. (It's a bit redundant as most players in the top 10 aren't especially unfinished in any area.) Djokovic however isn't a pure baseliner. He's a counter puncher, slowly picking away an opponent until finding an attack-able ball. Being called a counter-puncher isn't a negative thing, it just means more often than not he's most comfortable not forcing the play.

Originally Posted by finishingmove

the only thing davydenko does better than djokovic is drop volley, which is irrelevant to this discussion.

You have to stop looking at strokes purely as a measurement criteria in rating players. If this was the case Safin would the best player in the world. It's how the players use those strokes, the patterns of play they choose to win points. Don't get lost in the hype, tennis commentators everywhere over exaggerate the importance of picturesque strokes you don't have to.

Originally Posted by Guga_fan

I think that on early 2008 and late 2007 he was a much more complete baseliner, and at that time he really was a better version of Davydenko, and he had a great defense. After he changed his racquet his game changed a lot, his forehand has much less capacity to counter punch and his backhand down the line is way worse than it used to be, and his return of serve is also worse.
Nowadays I think Rafa is the most complete baseliner, but when Djokovic's game click he gets that spot. It's rare seeing his game click these days though.

I agree with this to some extent. However as a Guga fan, I doubt you'd ever consider Djokovic a fearsome baseliner.

[miura]

He is indeed one of the best at the moment, but I don't think he is the best.

[Clay Death]

Originally Posted by finishingmove

i'm not counting the mental factor here, on which nadal is overdosing right now.

it's a huge factor in tennis, bigger than u hold it to be, CD.

actually i consider the game to be about 30% mental so that is quite huge.

having the technical capacity to produce is what brings about that mental edge. you have to be able to get it done off the ground with your racquet.

mental edge comes from winning and it requires constant nourishement in tennis.

i am saying that he is able to go out there and produce.

nobody on the planet can discount his movement and his ability to exercise his options off the ground.

look at it another way: all the mental toughness and confidence on the palnet is useless if you are not the mover you need to be at the very top of the game.

in addition, dont stop at the movement. you also need at least 2 weapons and you must be consistent enough to be able to produce in the clutch.

i believe both his forehand and his backhand are weapons. he has the consistency he needs off both wings and he has the finishing power of both wings. he can also pass you like a demon off both wings. name one other player who can do what he can do. he basically never misses when he is on.

finally, his numbers do not lie.

this is not a knock against Djokovic. i like him a lot. its just that Nadal is simply better off the ground.

Djokovic does have a better backhand and one that can be quite penetrating but Nadal`s backhand is more consistent and far more dangerous in the clutch.

seeing is believing so just watch him.

[finishingmove]

Originally Posted by Fumus

It took you the better part of five minutes to come up with 3 sentences? I'm glad you notified me before you did. You are mistaken about Djokovic's patterns of play, which are the X and Os of how tennis players win points. When do you see Djokovic taking balls on the rise and forcing opponents to run side to side ala Davydenko or Nalbandian? Just how does Djokovic wins points, then? He out maneuvers his opponents. As you have noted he's a complete player. (It's a bit redundant as most players in the top 10 aren't especially unfinished in any area.) Djokovic however isn't a pure baseliner. He's a counter puncher, slowly picking away an opponent until finding an attack-able ball. Being called a counter-puncher isn't a negative thing, it just means more often than not he's most comfortable not forcing the play.

i was just trying to find some meaning in that middle paragraph of your post

as for djoko's game, why do u think i'm mistaken? i am aware of how djokovic is playing right now, and it's not his A game. fact is that he can just hit topspin forehands deep enough into the court and it's enough to win vs 99% of the tour. he certainly posseses the ability to take the ball on the rise, off of both wings. hardcourts are his natural surface, u'll find him more aggressive there, on any given day.

Originally Posted by Fumus

You have to stop looking at strokes purely as a measurement criteria in rating players. If this was the case Safin would the best player in the world. It's how the players use those strokes, the patterns of play they choose to win points. Don't get lost in the hype, tennis commentators everywhere over exaggerate the importance of picturesque strokes you don't have to.

of course there's truth in this, and there are factors beyond the groundstrokes that make the player and make the wins.

i am just trying to conduct a raw analysis

[finishingmove]

clay death, u are stating the obvious.

of course nadal has got the tools.

though, for example, his forehand is an excellent shot for clay; but do you think that is what wins him matches on hardcourts? how much has it changed since he was labeled a claycourt specialist? recently he himself realized he should try and hit it flatter.

he has also improved his serve, but to what extent? same goes for murray.

the boom they both made last year is not due to petty technical improvements, it's due to the belief in success.

[Commander Data]

Originally Posted by Clay Death

actually i consider the game to be about 30% mental so that is quite huge.

having the technical capacity to produce is what brings about that mental edge. you have to be able to get it done off the ground with your racquet.

mental edge comes from winning and it requires constant nourishement in tennis.

i am saying that he is able to go out there and produce.

nobody on the planet can discount his movement and his ability to exercise his options off the ground.

look at it another way: all the mental toughness and confidence on the palnet is useless if you are not the mover you need to be at the very top of the game.

in addition, dont stop at the movement. you also need at least 2 weapons and you must be consistent enough to be able to produce in the clutch.

i believe both his forehand and his backhand are weapons. he has the consistency he needs off both wings and he has the finishing power of both wings. he can also pass you like a demon off both wings. name one other player who can do what he can do. he basically never misses when he is on.

finally, his numbers do not lie.

this is not a knock against Djokovic. i like him a lot. its just that Nadal is simply better off the ground.

Djokovic does have a better backhand and one that can be quite penetrating but Nadal`s backhand is more consistent and far more dangerous in the clutch.

seeing is believing so just watch him.

I think you put into good words what i meant but was to lazy to write out Thanks CD.

Mental thoughness and techical ablities go hand in hand, it is impossible to separate the two.

Nadal is mental though to large degree because of his ground game, because he knows what his game can do for him. His technique on the FH gives him the weapon and stability to win so much. His BH gives him the reason the run and reach those hopeless (almost) winners from his opponents and counterpunch. His ground Game is the best out there at the moment.

[Fumus]

Originally Posted by finishingmove

i was just trying to find some meaning in that middle paragraph of your post

as for djoko's game, why do u think i'm mistaken? i am aware of how djokovic is playing right now, and it's not his A game. fact is that he can just hit topspin forehands deep enough into the court and it's enough to win vs 99% of the tour. he certainly posseses the ability to take the ball on the rise, off of both wings. hardcourts are his natural surface, u'll find him more aggressive there, on any given day.

of course there's truth in this, and there are factors beyond the groundstrokes that make the player and make the wins.

i am just trying to conduct a raw analysis

You will find no meaning in my opinions.

You are mistaken because this is how he plays. You must understand the definition of what a counter puncher is and how they play, then compare and contrast that to what an aggressive baseliner is. I didn't say he can't play aggressive. I've seen Nadal serve and volley before too, should I call him a serve and vollier? I never said he didn't have the ability to take the ball on the rise either. It's like you see my words and miss the point.

Everyone is more aggressive on hard courts, they're hard courts, a flat bounce rewards a well struck ball. None of this changes the basic patterns of play Djokovic likes to employ, they're just more effective on hard court.

Being a counter puncher doesn't mean be run around from side to side all the time. No body plays like that. It means hitting neutral shots in contemplation of taking advantage of an attack-able or weaker ball hit by your opponent. This is how Djokovic plays.

[Clay Death]

Originally Posted by Commander Data

I think you put into good words what i meant but was to lazy to write out Thanks CD.

Mental thoughness and techical ablities go hand in hand, it is impossible to separate the two.

Nadal is mental though to large degree because of his ground game, because he knows what his game can do for him. His technique on the FH gives him the weapon and stability to win so much. His BH gives him the reason the run and reach those hopeless (almost) winners from his opponents and counterpunch. His ground Game is the best out there at the moment.

thanks commander data. i knew you would undertand what i was trying to say.

defense rests. i have nothing more to say on this matter. like i always, seeing is believing. all they have to do is open their eyes and learn to see a little more clearly.

his forehand is the most destructive forehand the game has ever known. he can kill you with his backhand as well and often does.

his inside-out forehand is almost unplayable and worse, you are having to guess 1/2 of time. he may just go behind you.

both murray and gasquet have said that he basically never misses in the clutch when he is on. that is PRODUCION and his confidence rolls from it. its his strokes that get it done for him.

seeing is believeing. see it for yourself folks. that way they would never have to take our word for it. and if all else fails, one can always check the numbers. they are as cold as death itself.

[l_mac]

I don't really understand the question (even though it is not a question, but a statement)

Why are you including serve? Can we include smashes? I don't like Nole's f/h, it's not consistent enough.

Anyway, Nadal is the best player from the baseline in the game today. There's a reason why no-one wants to get into a rally with him. But I'm not sure if that is what the thread is about As I write this Nadal just went through set 1 with no UEs

[finishingmove]

i think there's a misunderstanding here, fumus.

'baseliner' doesn't necessarily imply a player aggressive from the baseline. at least in my book.

under that term, i am merely trying to encompass a certain set of skills.