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View Poll Results: Are players peaking at older ages in tennis now than in the past?

Yes 72 71.29%
No 22 21.78%
Don't know / don't care 7 6.93%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-09-2013, 01:34 AM   #331
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GasquetGulbis View Post
Nikola confuses me a lot. He plays all of these small tournaments with low ranked players in them and wins them all, but then he skipped Orange Bowl and Eddie Herr. His number 1 isn't real in my opinion, as I don't think he's beaten a top 20 player in the last 6 monthes.
Well, maybe there are some added benefits of being junior #1, so it's a priority or something for him. He said his goal for 2013 is to win a junior slam, and then slowly to start playing futures. Now compare that with Novak how played all four slams at the same age
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:44 AM   #332
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by GasquetGulbis View Post
I think it has something to do with the evolution of the Junior tour. The juniors who get into the senior tour at a younger age are the one's who become top players nowadays. Someone who sticks to juniors until they're 18, with no futures experience, won't be able to develop into a top 250 player in 1 year. Kokkinakis, Quinzi, Zverev, Garin, and probably a few others who I haven't mentioned, will be in the top 250 as teenagers.

That being said, someone like Yuki Bhambri, who was top 500 as a 16 year old, never made the transition
Tomic did both.

and in the 1993 generation, most of the best of that generation have played senior tournaments for long.

It may be truer for the 1994 and maybe soon 1995 generation who have played less senior tournaments (for instance Peliwo is an extreme case).

One point which concerns me is the number of long-term injuries promising youngsters have had in recent years : Krajinovic, Carreno-Busta, Kubler, Jeong Suk-Yong, I think Fernandes as well, Christian Harrison also was hampered by that at a very young age ...
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:46 AM   #333
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by Taejin View Post
Isn't there like 4 threads about this

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=143322



I don't think so. Ok if the teenagers can't break into top 10, that would be way too much, but if they can't even break into top 300, then it's probably because they are simply not good enough.
A new thread with this same theme has been popping up intermittently since 2009. The original (as far as I know) is here: http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?t=159356

Post number 9 is a good one.
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Old 01-09-2013, 01:49 AM   #334
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by duong View Post
Tomic did both.

and in the 1993 generation, most of the best of that generation have played senior tournaments for long.

It may be truer for the 1994 and maybe soon 1995 generation who have played less senior tournaments (for instance Peliwo is an extreme case).

One point which concerns me is the number of long-term injuries promising youngsters have had in recent years : Krajinovic, Carreno-Busta, Kubler, Jeong Suk-Yong, I think Fernandes as well, Christian Harrison also was hampered by that at a very young age ...
Tomic had the luxury of being able to score WCs at will, but not everybody get the backing of such federation. Anyway, don't know about the others but Krajinovic always looked like a stronger wind might blow him off court, I don't think he would be doing ok with such physicality in any era.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:33 AM   #335
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by Serverer View Post
Isnt it obvious? Tennis has become extremely physical. Only athletes with peak endurance and strength can compete. And it takes time to reach that level. No 19 year old is winning the tour de france any time soon either.
That's right. Youth is not for endurance. It gives you prime flexibility (that's why gymnasts don't last much past 20) and quick-twitch muscles for short, powerful bursts. Sprinters are young; the best marathoners are over 30. Plus tennis has the mental/experience factor over many other sports.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:49 AM   #336
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

Just goes to show this is a very strong era. Kids can't play with the men like they used to.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:20 AM   #337
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by Kat_YYZ View Post
maybe there are more players in their 30s still playing than there used to be. They simply take up spaces. The ones taking up the ranking spots 75-250 -- probably about 40-50 spots. If they retired, spots would open up and younger players would trickle down.
At the moment, there are 27 players 30 years or older in the top 100, 21 are ranked 101-200 and 5 are ranked 201-250. This includes those that have already retired, like Roddick and Ferrero. Even if we took away all 53 of them the best teens would still be ranked much lower than they traditionally have been.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:31 AM   #338
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by Litotes View Post
At the moment, there are 27 players 30 years or older in the top 100, 21 are ranked 101-200 and 5 are ranked 201-250. This includes those that have already retired, like Roddick and Ferrero. Even if we took away all 53 of them the best teens would still be ranked much lower than they traditionally have been.
Never mind top 250, check top 1000 and still you won't find many teens there.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:42 AM   #339
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

I think tennis having become so physical is the reason why there are no teens in top 250. A good example on physicality's effect is that WTA is less physical and has more young players in top than ATP.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:25 AM   #340
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

I think its a combination of

1) Tennis being more endurance-based

2) A lot of 30-something players are not retiring and sticking around picking up points

3) This crop of teenage players is just kinda bad
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:34 AM   #341
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Originally Posted by green25814 View Post
I think its a combination of

1) Tennis being more endurance-based

2) A lot of 30-something players are not retiring and sticking around picking up points

3) This crop of teenage players is just kinda bad
yeah something like that.

adding to 2)

medical science is much better these days and many players are much more responsible with training, diet, rest and smart scheduling. That means the decline can be pushed forward many years for most players
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:41 AM   #342
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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yeah something like that.

adding to 2)

medical science is much better these days and many players are much more responsible with training, diet, rest and smart scheduling. That means the decline can be pushed forward many years for most players
Not to mention - more demands to endurance will help the 30+ players, we can see in pure endurance sports that 30 is no age to retire.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:12 PM   #343
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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Isnt it obvious? Tennis has become extremely physical. Only athletes with peak endurance and strength can compete. And it takes time to reach that level. No 19 year old is winning the tour de france any time soon either.
This is completely nonsensical and the analogy of the Tour de France is completely irrelevant. Tennis is not a sport which relies so heavily on Lactate concentration or VO2 max levels. Cyclists of the Tour de France do not rely on agility, flexibility, strength and power as much as tennis players do, which favour the younger athlete.

In the past, teenagers and those in their very early 20's (21 or younger) have exhibited excellent displays of physicality, as recent as the likes of Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal and it's no coincidence that they top the World Rankings. In 2007, people noted that Andy Murray wasn't fit enough, physically and mentally. A drastic development occured over the course of 4-5 months, from late 2007 into the early months of 2008. He put in the work, why can't those of today? There is absolutely no excuse.

We can go back to the late 90's and early 2000's, when there was an influx of young talent approaching with the likes of Tommy Haas, Gustavo Kuerten, Lleyton Hewitt, Juan Carlos Ferrero, Marat Safin, Andy Roddick, Roger Federer and then lower tier players such as Juan Ignacio Chela and Andreas Vinciguerra displaying the goods from an early age. For example, Kuerten was winning Roland Garros on a slow clay court bettering opponents in multiple 4 and 5 set matches, Roddick was winning back-to-back Masters Series events and a Grand Slam and Marat Safin was winning 5 setters against defending champion Gustavo Kuerten and Andre Agassi at Roland Garros aged 18 and winning the US Open and becoming World Number 1 aged 20. You can give similar examples for all of these players relevant to their respective levels of ability.

Scientific research has largely proven that flexibility and agility are superior before the age of 24 years old and there is bundles of research to illustrate that cardiovascular levels can be easily attained by 18 years old's to be sufficient and more so in tennis. This is without the topic of injuries, how younger players are far less likely to have suffered injury and undergone surgery leaving scar tissue etc. which can inhibit flexibility and cause further damage.

There is absolutely no reason why younger players cannot be physically efficient and only have to worry about polishing up on technique and other fundamental skills required. Largely to blame is the coaching and personal advisers that come along with academies and other coaching facilities which are extremely well paid.

I mean, look at Girgor Dimitrov, someone who must weigh a measly 78kg and seems to regularly struggle physically. Not for one moment am I saying that hypertrophy increases power, like many do on this board, but a certain type and amount of hypertrophy comes with regular resistance training for strength and more essentially power. I feel that these players such as himself, feel that they are progressing and doing enough as is, so why change? I say, how good could those players be if they were as physically able as Andy Murray aged 20? A hell of a lot better, you bet.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:23 PM   #344
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

But Murray for me is an example which goes against your point Burrow, he was a guy who had to mature physically before he could compete with the big guys. It wasn't just about training it was also about growing into his body.

Another point I'd make is that increasing long rallies gives less explosive, more tactical (experienced) players an advantage. The young guys aren't competing well with the oldies, for whatever reason. I do agree with Burrow though that this generation should be working a lot harder to improve, I get the impression that many have been lazy and just expected to turn up and win futures and challengers immediately. Truth is, the ATP lower leagues are really tough to graduate from. It takes a ton of work/hard graft
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:29 PM   #345
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Default Re: No teens in the top 250!

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But Murray for me is an example which goes against your point Burrow, he was a guy who had to mature physically before he could compete with the big guys. It wasn't just about training it was also about growing into his body.

Another point I'd make is that increasing long rallies gives less explosive, more tactical (experienced) players an advantage. The young guys aren't competing well with the oldies, for whatever reason. I do agree with Burrow though that this generation should be working a lot harder to improve, I get the impression that many have been lazy and just expected to turn up and win futures and challengers immediately. Truth is, the ATP lower leagues are really tough to graduate from. It takes a ton of work/hard graft
Says who? He had reached his current height by the age of 19, and only began to change when he began preaching of his new 'rigorous' training regimes.

And anyway, your point of aerobic fitness being an advantage to the older players is very wrong, as I've already stated. It would only be an advantage if those older players were going beyond the call of duty and attaining VO2 max and Lactate Concentration levels to that of cyclists and runners, which is completely unnecessary in the first place. You can reach the desired values within months.
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