Where are the teenagers ? (Top 100 getting older and older) - Page 19 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

View Poll Results: Are players peaking at older ages in tennis now than in the past?

Yes 72 71.29%
No 22 21.78%
Don't know / don't care 7 6.93%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

Old 11-21-2012, 02:25 PM   #271
country flag duong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,346
duong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Age and Ranking Discussion Thread - Why is the top 100 getting older?

Thanks Latso for the stat about the number of futures

That there are 60% more guys with points is quite an effect of that number evolution, but it would not necessarily make it harder to climb in the rankings for the ones who are good enough for that.

About the "value of the points", the reform of 2009 had for futures the effect it had at other levels : the number of points for a win in a future tournament quite increased like at ATP250 or challenger level, but the number of points did relatively decrease for a win in early rounds.

Yes to really improve your rankings you need to win futures, not just win a few rounds, and even to climb higher you need to win several of them.

Not a thing which a talented young guy should not be able to do actually.

But generally yes, I do believe the democratization of the sport plus the evolution to a slower game, has made the competition in challenger and futures tournaments more physically and mentally demanding than in the past,

and I think it's more of a problem for young players who are not as "strong" physically and mentally as older ones.
__________________
useless old guy

Last edited by duong : 11-21-2012 at 02:30 PM.
duong is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 11-21-2012, 08:03 PM   #272
country flag latso
Registered User
 
latso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 37
Posts: 8,026
latso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond reputelatso has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Age and Ranking Discussion Thread - Why is the top 100 getting older?

Something i found interesting about Chang's through-the-roof storm of the rankings up, which is not smth i question, or his talent, just comparing -

In his very first steps as a pro in 1987 (aged 15 ) he plays his first tourney, which is a Grand prix (i guess equivalent to ATP 250), most probably with WC - loses first round.
Second tournament - USO with WC - wins one round, loses in second.
Third tournament - loses first round.

Guess the ranking - 483rd with 1 win and 3 losses.

For comparison (ofc lower level eventually) Lazarov is playing his third year in futures with the last one resulting in the above mentioned 1 tittle, 3 semies, 6 QFs and he's 495th.

Chang's potential then develops, he plays a semi in a GP (~ATP 250) and finishes the year with the tittle in a Challenger.

Year end ranking - 164th. In 3 months.

Nowadays with the points you'd make from a second round GS, semi in ATP 250 and win in a medium CH (~210-230) you'd be 60+ places behind 164th.

But the main problem - if you aren't among the very few to get WCs, you won't get anywhere near an ATP 250 to start with, GS for second, 250 third tournament, etc.

To deserve being there you need a couple years of great F1 results, title after title, then cruise through qualies of low rank CHs and get a few wins, etc.


So today the youngsters are indeed under a lot of physical and mental pressure from the very beginning of their careers and miracles like 1 win/ 3 losses and you're top 500 - they don't happen anymore, it's years of hard work, talent, dedication, etc. to have a chance.
latso is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 08:55 PM   #273
country flag feuselino
Registered User
 
feuselino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 785
feuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Age and Ranking Discussion Thread - Why is the top 100 getting older?

Interesting note. How many players were ranked anyway in 2000, 1990, 1980, 1973?
__________________
Release the Stanimal!!
feuselino is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 09:01 PM   #274
country flag Slasher1985
Rankings Master
 
Slasher1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Age: 28
Posts: 6,497
Slasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond reputeSlasher1985 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Age and Ranking Discussion Thread - Why is the top 100 getting older?

Quote:
Originally Posted by feuselino View Post
Interesting note. How many players were ranked anyway in 2000, 1990, 1980, 1973?
1650, 1174, 513, 235.
Slasher1985 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 02:02 PM   #275
country flag duong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,346
duong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Age and Ranking Discussion Thread - Why is the top 100 getting older?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latso View Post
But the main problem - if you aren't among the very few to get WCs, you won't get anywhere near an ATP 250 to start with, GS for second, 250 third tournament, etc.

To deserve being there you need a couple years of great F1 results, title after title, then cruise through qualies of low rank CHs and get a few wins, etc.
what you say here has always been the case : if you are very much hyped in youngsters and are American, you will get plenty of wildcards as Chang had.

It's what happened to Young.

But then it's not enough : you need to win matches at this high level to really improve your rankings enough to stay into this world.

It's true this inequality has always existed and still exists, however these wild-cards have always been limited to a few lucky (and usually extremely talented) ones, more interesting is how the others did in the past and now imo.

Besides, being number 220 or 164 in the rankings with the same results doesn't change much imo, esp. as you go back to Chang 25 years ago, that's a lot
__________________
useless old guy
duong is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2012, 04:37 AM   #276
country flag james82
Registered User
 
james82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Age: 32
Posts: 880
james82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond reputejames82 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: What is the cause for a lack of youngsters coming through the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poirot123 View Post
As the game becomes more physical, you have to remember a guy in his late twenties/early thirties is usually far more physically complete than any man in his early twenties. Yes there are always exceptions, and different men peak physically at different ages but usually men in their late twenties early thirties are far more powerful and more experienced, and thus know how best to use their physicallity.

Talent helps. And the youngsters thus far lack both talent and physicallity. but if you look at the top 6 under 21s this year - lets sum them up:
(I'm sure someone else can do a much much better job than I am doing here, based on a couple of views of them!).
1. Raonic. Servebot. return game really lacking. Currently ranked 13th, but feel unless his return improves, he's already reached his potential.

2. Janowicz. Ranked 26th. Great server, great dropshots. Showed some real creativity and power in Paris last week. A bright future perhaps. And don't forget - he couldn't afford to compete in the AO in 2012 as he couldn't afford to get there....

3. David Goffin. Ranked 48th. Shows a nice game overall. Some decent results this year. Physically very below par. Technically good though. Could rise a lot further in time.

4. Dimitrov. Ranked 49th. Great first serve. Good forehand. Struggles with movement and backhand susceptible to break down. Not in Federer's class at the same age. But his game, out of all the youngsters, is closest. Could improve in time as his physicallity improves.

5. Bernard Tomic. Ranked 50 something. No titles. Big hype. Good defence. Loves slicing the ball. I've never been overly impressed with him when I've seen him. Nowhere near top 20 material at the moment. But big potential.

6. Ryan Harrison. Ranked perpetually 60 - 80. Good first serve. Tenacious. Strong forehand. Athletic. I think this guy, with a bit more work physcially, and a bit more patience on court, could be a serious contender in a couple of years time. But he is a work in progress.

All the guys ranked lower I've never seen play, but others might have. Names include: Kuznetsov, Kudla, Elais, Sock, Schwartzman, Velotti, Andreozzi, Wu, Marti, and Arguello. A lot of them are from Argentina.
kuznetsov,rufin are both top 100 as well,a lot of the list u got with guys like zhang,ignatik,pella,daniel,Moriya,basic,dzumhur i think will be all up towards the top 100 by the end of next year
__________________
faves-Tatsuma Ito,Cedrik-Marcel Stebe,Benoit Paire,Tommy Haas,Kei Nishikori,Andres Seppi,Grigor Dimitrov,Go Soeda,David Goffn,Hiroki Moriya,Ze Zhang,Javier Marti,Tsung Hua Yang,federico DelBonis,Guillaume Rufin,Marius Copil,Nils Langer,Yasutaka Uchiyama,James Duckworth,Jason Kubler,Hiroyasu Ehara,Taro Daniel,Richard Becker,Jerzy Janowicz,Richard Berankis,Jack Sock,Kevin Krawietz,Yong-kyu Lim,Shuichi Sekiguchi,Di Wu,Luke Saville,Andrey Kuznetsov,Damir Dzumhur,Filip Krajinovic,Suk Young Jeong,Roberto Baena,Nick Kyrgios Henri Laaksonen,Dominic Thiem,Jonathan Eysseric,Gerald Melzer,Mirza Basic,Pierre Herbert,Renzo Olivo,Facundo Bagnis,Pablo Busta,Facundo Arguello,Diego Schwartzman,Jiri Vesely,Jan Lennard Struff,Denis Kudla,Pospisil,Elias,Pella
james82 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 06:34 PM   #277
country flag duong
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,346
duong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond reputeduong has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Age and Ranking Discussion Thread - Why is the top 100 getting older?

I made stats since the end of 2007 about the average age of top-200 players, and what's remarkable is the change of the age structure of the players ranked between 100 and 200.

As a matter of fact, the average age of the top-100 has increased by 1.7 year between 2007 and 2012 (27.8 years instead of 26.1), which can be explained by the "change of the nature of tennis (physical, mental)" which has been largely developed.

But the average age of players ranked between 101 and 200 has been nearly stable (only increased by 0.1 year, from 26.3 to 26.4) !

That means : in 2007 the average age of players ranked between 101 and 200 was quite similar to the one of players of the top-100, now they are 1.4 year younger !

What's more : the only rankings bracket where the average age has decreased is the rankings between 150 and 200 : it's 26.1 years now instead of 26.9 in the end of 2007.


In 2007 players ranked between 150 and 200 were older than all of the categories of players ranked above, and now it's the complete opposite it's the youngest category !!


(between 101 and 150 the increase has been + 1.0 year, from 25.8 to 26.8, lower increase than for the top-100)

I think two different kinds of interpretations can be given :

- old players who are stuck between 151 and 200 might be able to stay there but decide to give up one day as they have too little financial interest staying at that level (which leads us to the debate about not enough prize money in challengers) ... whereas younger players still hope they can improve ;

- young players manage to have a few good results in challengers, which allows a ranking between 151 and 200, but don't manage to have the physical and mental stamina to get consistently very good results at the challenger level, which would allow them to get a better ranking (which leads us to other debates about the evolution of the game and also about the structure of the points in the ATP rankings).
__________________
useless old guy

Last edited by duong : 11-27-2012 at 08:45 PM.
duong is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2012, 08:38 PM   #278
country flag saviopr
Registered User
 
saviopr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 270
saviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond reputesaviopr has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Age and Ranking Discussion Thread - Why is the top 100 getting older?

Quote:
Originally Posted by duong View Post
I made stats since the end of 2007 about the average age of top-200 players, and what's remarkable is the change of the age structure of the players ranked between 100 and 200.

As a matter of fact, the average age of the top-100 has increased by 1.7 year between 2007 and 2012 (27.8 years instead of 26.1), which can be explained by the "change of the nature of tennis (physical, mental)" which has been largely developed.

But the average age of players ranked between 101 and 200 has been nearly stable (only increased by 0.1 year, from 26.3 to 26.4) !

That means : in 2007 the average age of players ranked between 101 and 200 was quite similar to the one of players of the top-100, now they are 1.4 year younger !

What's more : the only rankings where the average age has decreased is the rankings between 150 and 200 : it's 26.1 years now instead of 26.9 in the end of 2007.


In 2007 players ranked between 150 and 200 were older than all of the categories of players ranked above, and now it's the complete opposite it's the youngest category !!


(between 101 and 150 the increase has been + 1.0 year, from 25.8 to 26.8, lower than for the top-100)

I think two different kinds of interpretations can be given :

- old players who are stuck between 151 and 200 might be able to stay there but decide to give up one day as they have too little financial interest staying at that level ... whereas younger players still hope they can improve ;

- young players manage to have a few good results in challengers, which allows a ranking between 151 and 200, but don't manage to have the physical and mental stamina to get consistently very good results at the challenger level, which would allwo them to get a better ranking.
Another great job Duong, and I agree with your interpretation about this.
saviopr is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 02:36 PM   #279
country flag peRfect-Tennis
Registered User
 
peRfect-Tennis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 26
Posts: 226
peRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond repute
Default No Teenagers in the Top 250 - Sad State of Affairs?

At the end of 2012 and so far to date, there are no teenagers in the top 250 of the mens game. Don't you think that's a sad state of affairs?

Where are the next junior players going to come from? Over here we have the LTA and they're an asbolute joke, never going to produce anybody in a million years. What are the setups like in other countries as I don't know much about them...

Here’s list of U20 players in Top 300 at the end of 2012

#52 Bernard Tomic (AUS, 1992) 825
#69 Ryan Harrison (USA, 1992) 710

#137 Denis Kudla (USA, 1992) 402
#150 Jack Sock (USA, 1992) 375
#172 Agustin Velotti (ARG, 1992) 299
#179 Diego Sebastian Schwartzman (ARG, 1992) 292
#184 Javier Marti (ESP, 1992) 272
#194 Facundo Arguello (ARG, 1992) 245

#209 James Duckworth (AUS, 1992) 230
#217 Yuki Bhambri (IND, 1992) 220
#235 Guillherme Clezar (BRA, 1992) 202
#242 Damir Dzumhur (BIH, 1992) 197
#249 Daniel Kosakowski (USA, 1992) 188
#263 Jiri Vesely (CZE, 1993) 183
#264 Nikoloz Basilashvili (GEO, 1992) 182
#280 Renzo Olivo (ARG, 1992) 167
#282 Taro Daniel (JPN, 1993) 165
#291 Henri Laaksonen (SUI, 1992) 155

Are slow courts to blame for lack of juniors making progress? Is the game too physical?

Some courts should be sped up to give younger players more chances to win matches. And especially in the UK more money should be invested in the grass roots of the game.

Source: http://www.perfect-tennis.co.uk/atp-...n-the-top-100/
__________________
For the latest tennis news, opinions and insight check out: peRFect Tennis

Follow me on Twitter: @peRFectTennisUK
peRfect-Tennis is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 03:16 PM   #280
country flag Brit Tennis Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,107
Brit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond reputeBrit Tennis Fan has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: No Teenagers in the Top 250 - Sad State of Affairs?

I don't think this is a big deal. It is largely due to the game becoming more physical and lots of players don't even start to reach their peak until 23 or 24.
Brit Tennis Fan is online now View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 03:17 PM   #281
country flag JarkaFish
Banned!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Age: 26
Posts: 2,152
JarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond reputeJarkaFish has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: No Teenagers in the Top 250 - Sad State of Affairs?

This isn't the WTA.
JarkaFish is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 03:25 PM   #282
country flag fluffyyelloballz
Registered User
 
fluffyyelloballz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Age: 36
Posts: 472
fluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond reputefluffyyelloballz has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: No Teenagers in the Top 250 - Sad State of Affairs?

What is sad on the part of the British is that even with Murray being a huge star the last four years there is still no young male looking to follow in his footsteps. The LTA were criticized by Murray in his autobiography and one wonders if he was listened to or just dismissed.

As for there being no teenagers in the top 100, it is not so long ago that the teen Nadal and Djokovic were causing a stir on the tour so the sudden lack of teens is quite current.
__________________
http://www.thetennisreview.com/novak...th-tough-draw/
Djokovic dealt tough draw at French Open
fluffyyelloballz is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 03:27 PM   #283
country flag extremaduratenis
Registered User
 
extremaduratenis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,191
extremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond reputeextremaduratenis has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: No Teenagers in the Top 250 - Sad State of Affairs?

Very sad...
__________________
Tennis Tipping records:

Doubles titles (7): 2010 Costa do Sauipe (w/sdtoot), 2010 Gstaad (w/Sdtoot), 2011 Auckland (w/Sdtoot), 2011 Marseille (w/Sdtoot), 2012 Chennai (w/Belludal), 2013 Vińa del Mar (w/Sdtoot), 2013 Wimbledon (w/Sdtoot)
2012 Hopman Cup Champion for Spain (w/YEBRA)
extremaduratenis is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 03:39 PM   #284
country flag peRfect-Tennis
Registered User
 
peRfect-Tennis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 26
Posts: 226
peRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond reputepeRfect-Tennis has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: No Teenagers in the Top 250 - Sad State of Affairs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit Tennis Fan View Post
I don't think this is a big deal. It is largely due to the game becoming more physical and lots of players don't even start to reach their peak until 23 or 24.
Yes, the slower the courts get the more physical the game gets.

But there's no real juniors coming through? Surely a worry?
__________________
For the latest tennis news, opinions and insight check out: peRFect Tennis

Follow me on Twitter: @peRFectTennisUK
peRfect-Tennis is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2013, 04:13 PM   #285
country flag Alex999
Registered User
 
Alex999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kanata
Posts: 8,795
Alex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond reputeAlex999 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: No Teenagers in the Top 250 - Sad State of Affairs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit Tennis Fan View Post
I don't think this is a big deal. It is largely due to the game becoming more physical and lots of players don't even start to reach their peak until 23 or 24.
it is a big deal. there is nobody right now, nada, zero ... it is pathetic
Alex999 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios