Roger news and articles - Page 33 - MensTennisForums.com

MensTennisForums.com

MenstennisForums.com is the premier Men's Tennis forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.Please Register - It's Free!

Reply

Old 07-18-2009, 03:51 PM   #481
country flag SUKTUEN
Registered User
 
SUKTUEN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: HONG KONG
Posts: 26,641
SUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

from Roger's site

OFF COURT - ROGER HONORED IN BASEL


Yesterday, Roger was named "Ehrespalebaerglemer", an award given to his hometown Basel's outstanding citizens. Our champion unveiled a honor plate with his name in the historic city center of Basel. 200 to 300 fans attended the ceremony
SUKTUEN is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 07-29-2009, 05:23 AM   #482
country flag Rommella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 752
Rommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Pete Bodo finally writes something that does not grate on a Federer fan's nerves.

The Fork in Federer's Road
Posted 07/28/2009 @ 4 :36 PM

by Pete Bodo

Roger Federer stands at a career crossroads, a babe in each arm (his wife Mirka gave birth to twin girls a few days ago), and one of two forks to take: one path goes downhill on a pleasant hike to retirement as the greatest Grand Slam singles title collector of all time. The other path goes uphill, over some potentially rough terrain, toward a private Valhalla with splendid views all around - and not a neighbor in sight.

Which way will Federer go?

It's an intriguing question, now that Federer has completed what might be the greatest 12-month period in his career - a time of triumph and vindication, pure and simple. But even deeply satisfying feats ought to carry a warning label, as top players often discovered. One Grand Slam champion who didn't read the label was Mats Wilander, who competes these days on the ATP Champions Tour.

In 1988, Wilander won three majors (which Federer is on track to do at the U.S. Open), the piece de resistance was a stunning upset of Ivan Lendl in the U.S. Open final. Wilander's performance was all the more critical because the no. 1 ranking was on the line (as it might be at Flushing Meadow in a few weeks) and Wilander had never held the spot.

Unfortunately, the three-major year, as well as his ascent to the top spot, left Wilander burned out and on the brink of what would be an enormous letdown. As he told David Law of the ATP Champion Tour the other day, “It wasn’t that easy (to recover from the effort) and it didn’t just go away in one day. It was more than a 'beer hangover' so to speak. It was deflation - you pump up the balloon so much and eventually it just exploded.

“I still loved to play tennis afterward, but I did feel like there was something just a little bit different when I was playing. I was hitting shots that didn’t have a purpose and that was very difficult for me to handle because up to the US Open finals in ’88, every ball I hit had a purpose. To then suddenly to start hitting shots for no reason was tough and it ended up being very deflating to my character on the court.”

It's ironic that so many Federer fans are loath to forgive Wilander a few crude remarks he made about their idol a few years ago, because the two men have much in common as players and personalities - starting with their respective reputations as "great guys." One big difference, though,is that Wilander's U.S. Open performance of 1988 was the culmination of a career-long striving, nearly a decade of dancing like a moth around the flame of ultimate success. By contrast, the career Grand Slam and Grand Slam singles title records Federer bagged this year seemed less the product of super-human effort than the inevitable, crowning touches on a flat landscape of nearly unimaginable excellence.

No matter what happens at the U.S. Open, we don't really know the extent to which Federer's already epic 2009 will leave him sated, or drained. But it's unlikely that he'll react the way Wilander did in 1988 (he never won another major, and his ranking slid precipitously over the ensuing months). After all, Federer has spent the past few years bulldozing and leveling the terrain of achievement, and making the heroic or epic appear quotidian. Why should 2009 be any different from any other year?

All of this makes it easy to forget that a year ago, the bulldozer temporarily hit some seriously compacted rock. Suddenly, the question arose, "Is Federer in decline?" The critical error the pundits made was failing to differentiate between decline and crisis; the former is an irreversible natural process; the latter is a temporary state (except for those who thrive on crisis, a class of person from which we can safely exclude The Mighty Federer).

Pundits, including former players and top-notch analysts, were suggesting that Federer hire a full-time coach; that he work on his fitness; that he hire a sports psychologist to help him "figure out" his nemesis, Rafael Nadal, along with a score of other rising stars who were nibbling at the edges of his greatness, and seemingly taking out larger and larger chunks on a nearly daily basis. A year later it's clear that Federer was anything but finished. And it turns out that there was nothing wrong with Federer, beyond the inadvertent "error" he'd made by raising the bar of expectation to unprecedented heights. He set a personal standard that was as unsustainable for him as it was inconceivable for most of his rivals.

That Federer himself didn't feel and experience that period of obvious turmoil as a crisis has nothing to do with it (although I'm not suggesting that he did not); like supreme gladiators or the gunfighters of yore, Federer - rightly - considered himself the most lethal man in town - until he wasn't. That's how it always is with the warriors; they're the last to know.

Apologists for Federer could claim that he suffered lingering effects from his bout with glandular fever, or that his back was out of joint. They can concoct any number of justifications or rationalizations for Federer's loss of form, but that's all just bar-stool talk. What mattered, and the only thing that ever matters is results. [This should apply to all other players as well, shouldn't it?] And those suggested that Federer suddenly was vulnerable and out of sync - a state that was described most eloquently by Federer himself on that sunny day in Miami when, in the course of absorbing a beating at the hands of Novak Djokovic, he smashed his suddenly disobedient racquet on the court.

Everyone should watch that clip again, just to remind himself of what it was like for Federer until, basically, Roland Garros in June of 2009. And those who were present at his post-match press conference that day in Miami will remember how withdrawn, evasive and introverted Federer appeared; it was like watching a felon mumbling his incantations with his shoulders hunched, hugging his own torso, the duck bill of his trademark RF cap tucked so low that you couldn't see his eyes - and probably would have turned away from them if he hadn't made danged sure you wouldn't see them anyway.

Federer's transformation these past few months has been extraordinary, even if he caught a bit of luck when Nadal was beaten in Paris. But just as the rationalizations of Federer's "slump" are irrelevant, so is any complaint that Federer just got "lucky" when Nadal lost at Roland Garros and withdrew from Wimbledon. I got news for you: one of the main reasons all of these top players are where they are is good luck, and it would take all the fingers and toes in a medium-sized city to tally up the number of players who, presented with good luck, found a way to make nothing of it. As amusing as the subtexts and backstories are to information hungry fans, this is the nub of it: When Federer most had to produce and halt what was clearly a slide, he found a way to do it.

Federer answered the only questions that he could possible reply to - those that were put to him on the court. In the course of the one-month period that matters more than all the rest of the tennis year, he not only won the two majors, his triumphs sealed his legacy. In the span of four weeks, he completed a career Grand Slam and shattered the Grand Slam singles title record. Apart from everything else, those achievements represent the single greatest response to pressure that I've ever seen. And they upped the ante for Nadal, a player whose own ability to rise to the demand of an occasion rivals that of Federer's.

So what's it going to be for Federer, a casual victory lap at the U.S. Open, where he'll be defending his title for a fifth consecutive year? What's it going to be for Federer in the "long term" - if that's the right word for the next two or three years - as the currents carry him toward the rocky beach of retirement?

I think the key lies in that wonderful quote by Rod Laver, a man with neither the temperament nor ability to engage in circuitous speculations and tortured analysis. At Wimbledon, Laver said: "Well, you know, you've got to be in the game and enjoy the sport to be able to do something like this (shatter the Grand Slam record). . . (you can't do it) if you don't respect the game and enjoy it - (If it's not) a thrill for yourself to get out there and play. That's the one thing that Roger has that I think is admirable for tennis."

The comment seems so anodyne. . . so obvious. It's just that nobody I know of ever bothered to make the observation, and the more I think about it (for that quote has stayed with me), the more I appreciate the role that the simple love of playing - win, lose or draw - figures into Federer's success. That kind of love may not save a player from feeling pressure, stress or having mental or emotional meltdowns, but it certainly helps keep those powerful irritants in perspective. Roger Fedrerer must have experienced a lot of stress and pressure in the past 12 months and they may have succeeded in overriding his love for the game, as symbolized by that terribly disfigured racquet in Miami. But over time, the love won out. It returned in the spring, which is the right season for that kind of thing.

Federer has always borne pressure with great dignity and grace; it's hard to imagine the events of 2009 effecting a major transformation of the kind Wilander experienced in 1989. At the same time, this happy time in his life, now the life of a young family, which is very different from any other kind of life, will certainly have some impact on the decisions he makes, his degree of focus, and those vital tools of the supreme competitor: the killer instinct, the burning desire to win, the sense that the game is perpetually unfinished business until the day you quit, when it becomes the marginally interesting business of others.

But if Federer could be forgiven for wondering, "How many times do I really have to do this?" during some portions of the last year, he now knows the one, true answer to the question: As often as it please me to do it. . . Oh, he'll learn what it feels like to hit shots that, as Wilander so trenchantly put it, "have no purpose" simply because he'll play more and more matches that can be said to have no, or little, purpose. But that will be a function of the time and place, because for a Roger Federer, there is always a purpose at Grand Slam events; that's in the DNA of a tennis champion.

Federer has often said he enjoys the tennis way of life, but that will change somewhat now that he has a family. My guess is that he'll find a way to play fewer events, or ones that are more convenient to his way of life. But it's hard to imagine that basic love of playing evaporating in Federer's heart; it's been there a long time. More likely, it will just have to make room for other things. And it may have helped him enormously to experience the first and what may be the only serious crisis of his career. He knows what he's made of; he knows when to panic (never) and when to dig in and fight (when the stakes are sufficiently high).

“I think if Federer keeps playing the way he is now he’s going to run away so far that nobody will ever catch him in terms of Grand Slam titles,” Wilander said. "Of course, he has to stay physically healthy but he has introduced a new, stronger mindset to his game. Suddenly it’s more fun to play tennis for him. Roger has taken the sport to a different level. He now shows up on the court thinking he’s going to beat his opponent not only in terms of physical strength but also in the mind. I wish him all the best and I really hope he wins 20 Majors.”

Nadal and company may have something to say about that. On the other hand, their ambitions just might help keep Federer around a little longer, because the kind of love he knows best isn't easily satisfied.

Last edited by Rommella : 07-29-2009 at 03:31 PM.
Rommella is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 11:11 AM   #483
country flag nobama
287 Baby!
 
nobama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Jony Ive's design cave
Posts: 19,807
nobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond reputenobama has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Another tedious Bodo piece.
__________________




Thank you Nick for taking out the trash at Wimbledon!
nobama is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 11:32 AM   #484
country flag bokehlicious
♥ eve ♥
 
bokehlicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 39,968
bokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Luthi said in today's Le Matin that Roger should confirm at the end of the week whether he'll play DC or not vs Italy. He said he's quite confident he will. The journalist was questionning it, saying that Roger already said that in the past and pulled off eventually. I liked Luthi's answer, saying he had a sore back earlier on this year and wanted to get prepared as well as possible for both RG and Wimbledon, and by winning those tournies he was doing more for Switzerland than by playing DC...
bokehlicious is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 11:35 AM   #485
country flag Dini
.
 
Dini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dreamland
Age: 23
Posts: 19,148
Dini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

JM posting in the Fed forum?

Thanks for the info - I hope he plays.

And that bold bit is actually so true.
__________________
"If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won."
Dini is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 12:27 PM   #486
country flag bokehlicious
♥ eve ♥
 
bokehlicious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lausanne
Posts: 39,968
bokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond reputebokehlicious has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Quote:
Originally Posted by infinityfed View Post
JM posting in the Fed forum?

Thanks for the info - I hope he plays.

And that bold bit is actually so true.
I don't avoid Fed forums...

Agreed about the bolt part, I'm tired of people bitching about Fed not caring about DC and calling him selfish for this... It's obvious he does way more for his country by being that successful in his solo career than by committing to DC all the time...
bokehlicious is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 02:42 PM   #487
country flag RogiFan88
Registered User
 
RogiFan88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,729
RogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond reputeRogiFan88 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

hmm... when other top players skip DC, nobody complains at all...
__________________
Hopp Rogi! Go Gonzo! Allez Gasquet!

Más vale maña que fuerza -- proverbio español
"Pero, con todos mis respetos para Rafa, Federer tiene más talento." - Marat Safin
"Pero para mí el mejor es Roger Federer. / For me, the best is Roger Federer." - D. Nalbandian
"He's the best sportsman, I think, in the world. He has a lot of humble." - Rafael Nadal
"He's so charismatic." - Marcos Baghdatis
RogiFan88 is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 02:57 PM   #488
country flag SUKTUEN
Registered User
 
SUKTUEN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: HONG KONG
Posts: 26,641
SUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

SUKTUEN is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2009, 03:44 PM   #489
country flag Rommella
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 752
Rommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond reputeRommella has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Sometimes, fans can write well-thought out and reasoned articles.

Logical Flaw in the Interpretation of Rafa's 13-7 H2H
By: Xeno Freak, Bleacher Report, 29 July 2009

Rafa leads 13-7 H2H, but Roger leads 29-20 STE (Same Tournaments Entered) and 35-23 TTAT (Total Tournaments Entered)

To caution, this piece is not written in defense of Roger Federer’s GOATness. It is not intended to downplay Rafael Nadal’s achievement either, definitely not his clean 6 Slams. This article is intended to unveil the logical flaw behind the interpretation of this 13-7 H2H stat, which is often used negatively against Federer to delegitimize his achievement, where as, I argue, it should be viewed as something positive to admire about. First part explains the problem; second part discusses the flaw in the H2H logic; the final part proposes a more comprehensive logic of STE and TTAT.

Part I
According to the ATP Rulebook, the tennis authority is neutral to H2H as it counts toward neither ranking points, nor award, nor a title, nor even as a tie breaker. If H2H proponents have employed this logic to break a tie between two players with equal number of Slams for historical purpose, that would probably not have been objectionable. When ATP/ITF does not even consider using H2H stat as one of the ways to break a tie between two players’ ranking, Federer’s critics have been using this H2H statistics to question the best of the generation and/ or best of all times. In my opinion, Nadal has been made a pawn in this logic because their goal has been far from assessing Nadal’s place in the history of tennis; rather, the underlying target of the logic has been to defame and delegitimize Federer.

I should begin with the propaganda machine generated and fueled by Raymond Lee, a reputed tennis historian and analyst, despite his earlier debunking of the H2H being the determining factor for a champion: “Tennis is not a sport like boxing in which a contender can defeat a champion and in the course of one fight elevate himself from challenger to champion. For all we know Federer could win the next 10 majors and not play Nadal in any of the those tournaments” (Tennis Week 7/15/08). Lee correctly observed back then The player defeating the champion does not automatically become World Champion later. If that were the case, Andy Murray, for instance, would have been coronated no. 1 back in September 2005 and would have lost the no. 1 position to Xavier Malisse the very next week, etc. (Another way to look at this is, in boxing format, Murray would not have gotten a chance to play Federer until this year; Rafa would not have played Federer in 2005 Roland Garros semi final, either).

Thank heavens, tennis is not boxing where you win the Championship by challenging and beating the title holder. In the Open Era, tennis does not provide that opportunity for a player to focus on defeating another player consistently and leveling the H2H. Nadal, too, understands the logical flaw of the H2H interpretation, as reflected by his recently revised schedule, which emphasizes on consistently getting to the finals of the majors, winning them, and bridging the staggering Slam gap, which Fed leads by 250% (15-6), which is more lopsided and of greater value than his 185% (13-7) H2H lead. The task before Nadal is to level (or even exceed) the slam tally of 15-6 than to enlarge upon 13-7 H2H. If Federer were to be stopped at 15, and Nadal tied this number, the H2H could be evoked at that time as a tie breaker, but we are not there yet, and they are far from done.

Yet, Lee revives the same principle that he once rightly jettisoned as cumbersome and absurd. And in the process of furthering his agenda, he finds an ally in Sampras, “While Sampras himself has bestowed the GOAT on Federer, he suggested today Federer must find a way to beat Nadal consistently in order to truly be called the GOAT” (Tennis Week 7/14/2009). And he quotes Sampras, “Tough question to answer. I do understand the argument as being the best ever you have to be the best of your generation and he has come up short against Nadal.” At times, the H2H interpretation has been analogous to a conspiracy theory. For example, Lee goes as far as to suggest, “[Y]ou can make a clear case he [Federer] is not even the best of this time.”

To back up their arguments, the Lees of this world brandish around only one card: Nadal has 13-7 H2H (5-2 in Slams) lead over Federer. These propagandists should have at least considered the obvious, “If Federer is not the best player of his generation, then who is?” If by no account they can conclude that Nadal is the best of this generation, what are they implying? This leads to question their motive of undermining Federer’s achievement, evidently because it is too big for them to digest in a short period of time, or that more than a few great players’ endorsements of Federer as the Greatest of All Time must have been baffling for them. To reiterate, it is equally significant to note that this stat is not evoked to uplift Rafa’s position in the history of tennis, either. I think Rafa does not need to and will not use this H2H card to establish his position among the Greats in the history of tennis, or to inch closer to Federer: Rafa is already among the Greats, and undoubtedly he possesses immense talents and has plenty of time at his disposal to get closer to (or even transcend) Federer, though that may appear long distance for now but not impossible. Only players of less caliber with no Slam or players with little prospect of getting the minimum number of Slams required to be considered among the Greats would need the H2H card to console themselves. Certainly, Rafa is not among those players. Let me remind you once again that I am not arguing for Federer’s GOATness. I am arguing against where and how the H2H logic is used.

Part II
The biggest logical flaw lies in the ignorance of the fact that reaching a final is better than falling before it (reverse this: not reaching the finals is worse than trailing in H2H stat). Yes, it is convenient to throw a one-liner stat, 13-7 overall or 5-2 at the Slam level, but there is so much into it, and, yes, the flaw lies in the conclusion that Federer critics draw out of this H2H stat. If one-liner soundbite is lacking, let’s create one: Is not reaching the finals more rewarding than failing to reach there? Or, are not 24 finals at the Masters Series better than 20 finals, Federer and Nadal’s numbers, respectively?

Let’s first look at the majors and then Masters Series, though it ultimately boils down to 9-2 on clay, and the problematic inference that is drawn from this stat is that Fed did not do well on clay as his reaching the finals is misinterpreted as a way to undermine his overall performance. Did Fed do better or did he not, especially in comparison to Rafa’s record on hard court Slams, AO and USO? Although he officially turned pro in 2001, the beginning of Rafa could be reasonably pinned down to 2003 Wimbledon, the major that he automatically qualified for. Rafa would have been 0-11 H2H on hard court (in 2005 and 2008 AO, Fed lost in Semi, so these are subtracted), i.e. Rafa stumbled long before the final in those 13 occasions, i.e. long before he’d have opportunity to face head to head with Federer.

Since Rafa’s Slam debut, Federer has reached the RG finals on all the occasions except one semi in 2005, providing Rafa with 100% opportunity for H2H clash. This is a record in itself, 4 consecutive French Open finals, tying with only three others Borg, Ledl, and Nadal. Would not Rafa have preferred to reach the hard court Slam finals in those missed occasions? Instead of exiting in the early rounds, if Rafa had reached those finals and lost in all, would it be logical to use those loses against Rafa’s achievement? Would not those finals be more rewarding for Rafa? Were not Rafa’s two final encounters with Federer at Wimbledon more respectable than the others in which he did not make it to the finals or could not participate in? If so, should not Federer’s finals be evaluated using the same measuring standard?

Primarily, what 13-7, or specifically 9-2, means is Federer was there on all those occasions, beating 4 to 6 most successful players of the draw to reach the finals. Did Nadal win a title on all those 13 occasions when he eliminated Federer? Almost. Federer did slightly better due to his no. 1 position.
Had Federer reached the Monte Carlo and Rome Masters finals this year and, let’s say, he lost both of them to Nadal, his H2H with Nadal would have increased to 7-15 in Federer’s disfavor. So, can we say that Federer performed better by not reaching the finals of those two clay Masters Series and therefore not allowing Nadal to beat him (which most assume to have happened had he faced Nadal) to make his H2H look even worse against Nadal?

Pardon my digression (you will see the relevance of the analogy), is it not right to conclude that Djokovic did the right thing this clay season by reaching Monte Carlo and Rome finals and losing both of them to Nadal, thereby worsening his H2H with Nadal? Had Djokovic not been in the finals of those two clay masters and semi of Madrid, his H2H with Nadal would have stayed at 4-11 in his disfavor, better than the current 4-14 deficit. But by playing good enough to reach the finals and semifinals in clay tournaments, Djokovic allowed Nadal to widen H2H to 4-14, in his own disfavor. Now, who should be called as the better performer in those two clay masters? The guy, Federer, who was unable to reach the finals but was able to save his record from worsening, or the other guy, Djokovic, who played good enough to reach the finals knowing Nadal’s invincibility on clay and allowing his own H2H to worsen? Moreover, should Federer have decided to intentionally lose before the 4th round at Madrid and RG, fearing his H2H would slide further?

Using the same logic, instead of falling before the finals, if Nadal had been good enough to reach the finals on those 12 Slams that Federer won and, let’s say, Rafa lost in all of them (actually he reached the Slam finals in only 2 occasions that Federer won), should we not conclude Rafa performed better than his other early exits, despite the 0-2 H2H deficit resulting from these two finals? Federer has done just that in the past: Second only to Rafa, he reached the most finals of the clay Masters Series and French Open from 2004-2009, with the hope of winning the title in each (8 runner ups and 6 titles, beating Nadal in Hamburg 2007 and Madrid 2009).

One has to admit what the H2H trailing shows: a bad match-up. Federer’s game does not match up well with Nadal, for a number of well-known reasons. But that does not put Nadal above Federer in any measure. Are Hrbaty, Blake, and Nalbandian overall better players than Nadal because they have better H2H but never made it to a round on any clay tournament where they could meet Nadal? Should that bother Nadal and should he be focusing on improving his H2H with them, instead of winning a Slam? Imagine Hrbaty, Blake, Nalbandian and Rafa were the only players to reach semi finals and final of every event. How many titles would Rafa win and what the H2H with these players would look like? Tennis is a single-elimination sport, and you don’t have to beat all the players in the draw.

How about Sampras, who reached RG semi only once? Sergi Bruguera has better H2H against Sampras because of clay, and it could have been more lopsided had Sampras advanced to semis and finals on clay. Thomas Muster, who won 6 Masters on clay and 1 RG, was known as “the King of Clay” at his peak and would have leveled his H2H with Sampras (9-2), had Sampras been as good as Federer. The same could be said of Courier, Rios, Medvedev, Costa, and Kuerten, other clay court specialists of his time: Had Sampras been good enough to advance to semis and finals on clay, each would have improved his H2H against Sampras.

All together Sampras did not participate in 17 clay Masters. Should we give Sampras higher mark for maintaining his H2H against his rivals because he escaped 17 Masters and did not advance beyond the 3rd round except on 8 occasions, clay Masters Series and RG combined (8 out of 36 in 13 years) and punish Federer for consistently reaching 4 RG finals and 11 Finals at the Masters on clay (advancing beyond 3rd Rd. on 25 out of 37 occasions in 11 years)?

Like Sampras did in those 45 occasions (either escaping 17 times and not advancing beyond 3rd Rd. on 28 occasions), if Federer has done the same thing, would he be considered a better player because he would have avoided the lopsided H2H with Rafa? Is that what we have arrived at? Are we saying Rafa is better than Fed on outdoor hard hard because Rafa would not make it to the other finals that Federer did, thus better H2H (2-1) on outdoor hard? Had Federer been only as moderately good as Sampras was on clay, Federer would not have faced Rafa in those 11 occasions (9-2), and the H2H would be 5-4 in Fed’s favor.

Besides all these obvious reasons, there is a historical reason to debunk the H2H logic. The H2H logic entails the corpse of the pre-Open era head-to-head tours, which both ATP and ITF found to be unjust as we ushered into the open era in 1968, because it undermined the rest of the field as if no other player existed, sort of two pros and the rest amateurs. If used in the measurement of two players or to determine the place of one player or both in the history of tennis under the circumstance that both are still active players at the top of their games, H2H violates the spirit of the Open Era. At best, the true value of H2H lies in predicting matches, less reliable in Grand Slams due to their 5-setter format. ATP and ITF have embedded the H2H device in their websites for exclusively that purpose, so it is fair to say that H2H is limited to match predicting entertainment at this point.

Part III
I present in this concluding section a more comprehensive and reliable logic: The logic of STE (Same Tournaments Entered). To give a postmodern twist, we may call it a post-H2H logic. On my path to the new logic, let me quickly touch on another bellicose noise. Encouraged by the skewed interpretation of the H2H, some have even raised this question, “Can Roger win when Rafa is around?” Since Rafa’s Slam debut in 2003 Wimbledon, he has played in the same 21 Slams that Roger played (Roger played 4 more during the same period). Roger won 12 times in those same 21 slams that Rafa was also playing. Rafa did not play ‘04 SW19, ‘06 AO, and ‘09 SW19, the 3 occasions Roger won. Roger’s 80% of the titles (12 out of 15) came from the same Slams that Rafa played. So, one could add these 12 to Roger’s total H2H, in which Rafa lost long before the finals, which should be counted as less favorable than H2H (interpret H2H as reaching the finals, at least since the time Rafa has been number 2 or 1).

The originality of my argument lies in the new logic of Fed’s lead over Rafa by 29-20 in STE. Both Roger and Rafa participated in the same 62 tournaments, with a combined win of 49 titles. Neither of them won in 13 of those. And Roger’s lead stands tall at 29-20 in those 62 events participated. Now you might wonder how this STE is more comprehensive and how it is aimed at greater justice. It is comprehensive because it takes into account all the tournaments participated, and it does greater justice because it acknowledges the depth of field, i.e., 4 and 6 players standing on the way to the finals of Masters and Slams, respectively.

Actually, one could include all tournaments available for a player to participate in a given time. A player often fails to participate due to poor fitness and under-preparation, which are parts of all sports. Once qualified to play, a player is honored to cherish and participate. Due to higher ranking players’ leniency in the past toward honoring their automatic qualification into draws, from this year ATP/ITF has introduced a new rule to penalize for non-participation: “Once a player is accepted in the main draw of these twelve tournaments [13 in the case of the top 8]…his result will count…whether or not he participates” (ATP Rule 9.03 A, emphasis added). The player who is unable to participate is awarded the same points as the one who loses in the first round; moreover, there are other penalties.

Even before this rule came into existence, acceptance into the draws of these Masters Series and Slams were expected to be honored without exception. For this reason, one could include all the available tournaments in the same span of time to measure the performance of two players. This stat measures titles won in the tournaments that were available to both since Rafa’s Slam debut. It will be comprised of the following: if player A qualifies but does not participate in one of those 13 mandatory tournaments, and player B wins the title in the tournament that player A missed (e.g. Masters Cup 2005 and 2008 will not be counted, though Rafa missed both but Roger did not win either of them; but Wimbledon 2009 will be added); plus other lower tier tournaments both participated and one of them won the title, regardless if they met or not. In this statistical logic, which we may acronym TTAT (Titles in Total Available Tournaments), the gap between Roger and Rafa widens further to 35-23.
Rommella is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 05:37 PM   #490
country flag SUKTUEN
Registered User
 
SUKTUEN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: HONG KONG
Posts: 26,641
SUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond reputeSUKTUEN has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

very long articles~!!!!
SUKTUEN is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 07:50 PM   #491
country flag Rita
Registered User
 
Rita's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 7,147
Rita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond reputeRita has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Roger is going to train with Koubek this week. Apparently
http://www.tennisfabrik.at/view.php?id=11753
it's in German
__________________
Fedmug


Rogelio no complain he good boy no?

Rita is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 08:04 PM   #492
country flag Eden
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Eden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Age: 39
Posts: 21,524
Eden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Thanks for the news Rita

I'm going to translate the main parts of it:

Quote:
Tomorrow I'm leaving for another practicing week with Roger. I'm panting for the hardcourt-season.

I have the best practice partner in the world to prepare for the next extremely important weeks: Tomorrow, Tuesday, I'm leaving for a practice week with Roger Federer in Switzerland. The week on Sardinia was apparently as useful to him as for me, even though he has made a bit more out of it as myself, which I have to confess... ;-)

We were talking about this second common practice week for about three weeks, but it was a bit uncertain due to the date of delivery of Mirka. But since the twins are there everything was clear. Tomorrow I'm going over and we practice until Saturday.
Eden is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 08:06 PM   #493
country flag feuselino
Registered User
 
feuselino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 788
feuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond reputefeuselino has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Lucky Koubek!
__________________
Release the Stanimal!!
feuselino is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 08:08 PM   #494
country flag Eden
-LIFETIME MEMBER-
 
Eden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Age: 39
Posts: 21,524
Eden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond reputeEden has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Quote:
Originally Posted by P. Antonius View Post
Agreed about the bolt part, I'm tired of people bitching about Fed not caring about DC and calling him selfish for this... It's obvious he does way more for his country by being that successful in his solo career than by committing to DC all the time...


Beside this the other Swiss players mention very often that Roger is always there for them when they need help or advice. It's not that Roger doesn't care about his teammates. He is a friend of them for many years.
Eden is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2009, 08:13 PM   #495
country flag Dini
.
 
Dini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dreamland
Age: 23
Posts: 19,148
Dini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond reputeDini has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Roger news and articles

Thanks Doris for the translation, and thanks rita for the link.



Does this mean Fed will be back for Montreal?
__________________
"If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won."
Dini is offline View My Blog!   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios