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Old 06-26-2011, 07:29 AM   #4411
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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Originally Posted by Roseisarose View Post
But let's face it, just the act of registering as a candidate speaks volumes about either his a) stupendous naivete b) indifference to the dirty politics of the party, or c) political beliefs that align with the party.
d) If he wants to achieve his goals as VP of tennis federation (and P in the future) he HAS to join this party. This is modern russia reality and we all have to deal with it, no matter how sad this fact makes me personally.
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:45 AM   #4412
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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Originally Posted by stzenit View Post
Most of those observers have little understanding of Russia and would prefer someone like Yeltsin back in power. In no way has Russia become more totalitarian under Putin, the 90's was just awful under Yeltsin it actually sickened me.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but whether you agree or not, there is a significant body of opinion - from experienced journalists with years of experience in Russian politics and social commentary who have for some time expressed the opinion that Putin, who was greeted as a 'good thing' by the west in general, has gradually become more totalitarian and the system of repression of the 'free' press in Russia - and in particular the persecution of prominent business figures of recent years unfortunatley seems to have come at a price - the last thing the west would want is for Russia to sink back into the dark ages and as I pointed out, it was Yeltsin who presided over the smash and grab which lead directly to the terrible conditions for the majority of russians in the 90's....and to the subsequent popularity of an "action man' President who rules with an iron fist....maybe it will take a few more generations before democracy, as such, has much meaning for the majority of Russians - because of the total mismanagement of the transition from totalitarianism to what was hoped would become democracy - that concept has delivered vary little in the way of benefits to the majority of Russians...but I am not sure where you have got the impression that the opinions I was referring to would prefer "someone like Yeltsin" - on the contrary - he may have loved tennis but he was a disaster for the short-medium term future of the vast majority of Russians...



How is that sick? Most of the population support United Russia, Safin himself knows that when he left Russia in the 90's it was the equivalent of hell, During Putin’s Presidency, poverty rates dropped from 44% in 2000 to 12% and wages tripled, fueling an on-going consumption boom shared across all regions and social groups. 64% of Russians think Putin has had a positive influence on democracy and human rights, while only 3% think it was ‘very negative.
where did you get this data - presumably a State authorised news agency?
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:52 AM   #4413
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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Good point, Stzenit!

I,too, wanted to write something like this yesterday, when Putin started being invoked around here as the supreme demonical creature who's gona suck Marat's soul & all,


This is a total misrepresentation of what I said


Without wanting to insult anyone in here, I'd like to say that it never ceases to amaze me who so many Westerners seem to live with the impression that whatever their government tells them about Russia (past or present) is the absolute truth!

Comrades, it's not! Move on!
None of the information and opinion and research I refer to came from "my' government - LOL - I doubt there are many people living in a modern western democracy that believe a single word their government 'tells' them ....that seems to be a curiously eastern european thing....maybe because they have very little choice when all their media is controlled by their governments....
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:56 AM   #4414
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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d) If he wants to achieve his goals as VP of tennis federation (and P in the future) he HAS to join this party. This is modern russia reality and we all have to deal with it, no matter how sad this fact makes me personally.
I understand how you must feel...but we all knew this was coming...how are you?
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:57 AM   #4415
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

i think it's unfair to insinuate that someone is being prejudice aginst a particular country just because they have a different political stance to you...
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:06 AM   #4416
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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where did you get this data - presumably a State authorised news agency?
Which data? All is true in the sense of poverty and living standards rising dramatically under Putin. If you are questioning the source of data stating Russia became more democratic under Putin here is the source, a nice friendly western one since in the west you guys are so free and have no propaganda in your media
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...poll_putin.pdf


If you want to talk about Journalists killed in Russia, the number of journalists killed under Putin (17) is less than under Yeltsin (30), and only five of them can be definitively linked to their professional work.

Russians have easy access to whatever views they want via the press, cable TV and the Internet, Internet censorship in Russia is at the same levels as in Australia. Yet Putin and Medvedev have overwhelming support against opposition parties. People can make there own decisions. I am not Putin's greatest fan, nor Medvedev's there are problems in the country which need solving but to claim that Putin or Medvedev made the country worse and life did not get better is a ridiculous claim. All current alternatives in Russian politics would currently be catastrophic.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:07 AM   #4417
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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i think it's unfair to insinuate that someone is being prejudice aginst a particular country just because they have a different political stance to you...
if this comment is directed at me...would you please explain what you mean? I have responded directly to comments and included them in my post....and I am merely questioning their comments in relation to my previous post - I did not insinuate OR suggest that anyone was prejudiced against anything or anyone whether they agree with me or not
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:12 AM   #4418
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

No no Inez that wasn't for you.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:14 AM   #4419
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

It about a couple of posts before yours...
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:25 AM   #4420
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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Which data? All is true in the sense of poverty and living standards rising dramatically under Putin. If you are questioning the source of data stating Russia became more democratic under Putin here is the source, a nice friendly western one since in the west you guys are so free and have no propaganda in your media
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...poll_putin.pdf

Thanks for posting your source - but please do not attempt to patronise me - if you care to read my comments I am afraid you are mistaken if you think I am an apologist for the western media OR Yeltzin - so I advise you not to jump to conclusions so readily.

If you want to talk about Journalists killed in Russia, the number of journalists killed under Putin (17) is less than under Yeltsin (30), and only five of them can be definitively linked to their professional work.

Russians have easy access to whatever views they want via the press, cable TV and the Internet, Internet censorship in Russia is at the same levels as in Australia. Yet Putin and Medvedev have overwhelming support against opposition parties. People can make there own decisions. I am not Putin's greatest fan, nor Medvedev's there are problems in the country which need solving but to claim that Putin or Medvedev made the country worse and life did not get better is a ridiculous claim. All current alternatives in Russian politics would currently be catastrophic.
I wasn't particularly talking about journalists killed as it happens, but your statistics are rather alarming and do little to support your contention that Russia is more democratic and 'free' now than it was under Yeltzin - more organised, no doubt...but...'democratic".... ? and before you jump on your high horse to condemn my western viewpoint again - I am NOT arguing that 'democracy' as such is the answer to the issues that modern Russia has to face....and having access to the internet and different political views is one thing - being able to actively debate and vote in a meaningful contest is entirely another...how many political debates are televised in Russia...on state TV....do you actually have a meaningful "opposition"...of course people will vote for Putin and Medvedev - what other real choices do they have?? and once again, I am NOT saying that the politicians we have to put up wiht here in Australia are any 'better' - frankly, the level of debate is pathetic - if you listen to ABC news radio they broadcast the proceedings of the Senate AND Parliament and it's ...well...there are times when I would expect more meaningful arguments to take place in a school yard - BUT I would rather live in an imperfect "democracy' than an imperfect "oligarchy"....
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:26 AM   #4421
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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It about a couple of posts before yours...
thank you - perhaps its a good idea to just quote the original post to avoid misunderstanding since we have a 'live' political debate going on!
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:29 AM   #4422
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Also inez I personally have no problem with you, but what I do have problems with are many so called Political experts on Russia who were the same experts who called Berezovsky and Yeltsin heroes of freedom. The same experts who claimed Russia was a failed state in 1998. The same experts who said Russia would never pay off it's debt back in 1999(paid off in 2006), the same experts who claimed that Russia would reach a sub-Saharan scaled AIDS epidemic back in 2000 when in reality the HIV positive reached a plateau in 2002 and tended down ever since. The same experts who claim Khodorkovsky was a progressive entrepreneur who pursued transparency and democracy(Weeks ago European Court favors Russian government in Khodorkovsky prosecution)

What you need to understand is Russia is a post-totalitarian society with many features of the old order still hanging around in institutions like the police, the penal system and the bureaucracy. It is fully capable of evolving its own brand of democracy, but that requires time and a measure of political consolidation.

I hope I do not come across offensive in any sense I do not intend to do so.
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:38 AM   #4423
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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I wasn't particularly talking about journalists killed as it happens, but your statistics are rather alarming and do little to support your contention that Russia is more democratic and 'free' now than it was under Yeltzin - more organised, no doubt...but...'democratic".... ? and before you jump on your high horse to condemn my western viewpoint again - I am NOT arguing that 'democracy' as such is the answer to the issues that modern Russia has to face....and having access to the internet and different political views is one thing - being able to actively debate and vote in a meaningful contest is entirely another...how many political debates are televised in Russia...on state TV....do you actually have a meaningful "opposition"...of course people will vote for Putin and Medvedev - what other real choices do they have?? and once again, I am NOT saying that the politicians we have to put up wiht here in Australia are any 'better' - frankly, the level of debate is pathetic - if you listen to ABC news radio they broadcast the proceedings of the Senate AND Parliament and it's ...well...there are times when I would expect more meaningful arguments to take place in a school yard - BUT I would rather live in an imperfect "democracy' than an imperfect "oligarchy"....
Is it safer yes, are living standards better yes a lot better(The middle class of Russia was approximately 5 million in 2000, latest sources show it to be close to 80 million), does Russia still have problems with police and corruption yes it does. In reality a lot was done from 2000-2011. It is actually amazing to see where the country is now compared to 10 years ago, like I said I am not the biggest supporter but I know the country has stability under the current leadership and Russia is moving in a positive direction. Everything else you said in the sense that Russia has no meaningful opposition I agree with you on this, problem is the opposition are a joke and it will take years before we have a normal political system. , A stable good opposition system won't happen for another 10 years until we have a proper generation cycle.

Once again hope I am not coming across as insulting, I agree with most of your views.
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:06 AM   #4424
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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Also inez I personally have no problem with you, but what I do have problems with are many so called Political experts on Russia who were the same experts who called Berezovsky and Yeltsin heroes of freedom. The same experts who claimed Russia was a failed state in 1998. The same experts who said Russia would never pay off it's debt back in 1999(paid off in 2006), the same experts who claimed that Russia would reach a sub-Saharan scaled AIDS epidemic back in 2000 when in reality the HIV positive reached a plateau in 2002 and tended down ever since. The same experts who claim Khodorkovsky was a progressive entrepreneur who pursued transparency and democracy(Weeks ago European Court favors Russian government in Khodorkovsky prosecution)

What you need to understand is Russia is a post-totalitarian society with many features of the old order still hanging around in institutions like the police, the penal system and the bureaucracy. It is fully capable of evolving its own brand of democracy, but that requires time and a measure of political consolidation.

I hope I do not come across offensive in any sense I do not intend to do so.
thank you for your cordial reply - I am sure there are Russian commentators who have their own agenda in the way they portray the situation there - and whose predictions may be inaccurate - I am not arguing a particular political point here but making general observations - many of them anecdotal and from non-political sources - and your last paragraph is in fact precisely what I was alluding to in my comment that more generations need to pass before 'democracy' can have a positive meaning to most Russians....Russia has a tumultuous recent past (by which I mean the previous century and a bit) and it is scarred by these events...I have no doubt at all that Russia will continue to evolve a more robust political system and I certainly hope that it continues to engage fully with the rest of Europe and the world....as I hope the majority of the Russian people do!
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:12 AM   #4425
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Default Re: News & Articles Part 3 - The Return of the Yeti

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... problem is the opposition are a joke and it will take years before we have a normal political system. , A stable good opposition system won't happen for another 10 years until we have a proper generation cycle.
Agreed - as it happens, I think the opposition in Australia at the moment is a joke - in fact, it is rather interesting to consider the implications of the fact that both the UK and Australia, in there recent elections held around the same time - ended up with "hung' parliaments - forcing the Politicians to swallow their party=political views and have to rely on the people whose views they routinely vilify to maintain their governments.....rather a good dose of reality for them I think!
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