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View Poll Results: Is Hinduism more or less rational than the major religions?

It's more rational. 1 3.70%
It's less rational. 3 11.11%
It is no more and no less rational than any other religion ou there. 12 44.44%
I don't know enough about it to give an educated opinion. 11 40.74%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-30-2008, 04:13 AM   #76
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by Snoo Foo View Post
ok so you're saying if our molars got rotten or broken or worn down and fell out before we hit adulthood, having some brand new ones wouldn't be helpful?
No, they wouldn't. We don't need those particular teeth at all and they aren't helpful.

Anyone who has studied evoluton for more than a couple of weeks knows that wisdom teeth are redundant. Feel free to do your own research. No need to take my word for it.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:14 AM   #77
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Evolution does not take into account outside sources, technological advancements etc. Evolution, for better or worse, drives us to procreate. You have to look at evolution at its most basic: survival of the species. Evolution does not know how big our planet is or whether overpopulation would be an issue. It simply drives us to procreate.
So I have to adopt your somewhat fictitious description of homosexuality so I can maybe entertain the idea that somehow homosexuality is undesirable from and evolutionary perspective?

I'm not sure what you think evolution is, but evolution is simply change in the genetic make-up of a population over time (i.e. successive generations). A species, and therefore its evolution, are affected by all the things that you're trying to rule out in your above post: available resources in the environment, outside influences, e.g. catastrophes that cause major extinction events, and so on.

The title of your thread is "Homosexuality and evolution" You admit that homosexuality is not a genetic trait, and therefore you have to admit that it cannot be operated upon by evolution, making this whole thread pointless, But no matter.

Your point was that homosexuality does not serve the species, and if anything it clearly does serve the species by reducing overpopulation, IF your claim that homosexuals reproduce less is correct.

If your claim is incorrect and homosexuals do reproduce as much as heterosexuals (through whatever means), then your whole argument, which relies on the reproduction assumption, is invalid. No matter how you look at it, there isn't anything to argue here.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:14 AM   #78
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Exactamundo! They have a very real purpose, the continuation of the species, despite the fact that they can't reproduce.
Yes, but homosexuals are not necessary. Worker bees are.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:14 AM   #79
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

Dude, I know they are redundant.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:17 AM   #80
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Clyde, can we now officially refer to you as the Christopher Hitchens of MTF ?
I wish I was half as articulate or half as knowledgeable as Hitchens. Absolute genius.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:18 AM   #81
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Originally Posted by Clydey View Post
Yes, but homosexuals are not necessary. Worker bees are.
But how do you know that homosexuals were not necessary, or at least advantageous, at some point in the course of human evolution? They might have had some purpose, now completely redundant due to modern technology, just like wisdom teeth.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:20 AM   #82
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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So I have to adopt your somewhat fictitious description of evolution so I can maybe entertain the idea that somehow homosexuality is undesirable from and evolutionary perspective?

I'm not sure what you think evolution is, but evolution is simply change in the genetic make-up of a population over time (i.e. successive generations). A species, and therefore its evolution, are affected by all the things that you're trying to rule out in your above post: available resources in the environment, outside influences, e.g. catastrophes that cause major extinction events, and so on.

The title of your thread is "Homosexuality and evolution" You admit that evolution is not a genetic trait, and therefore you have to admit that it cannot be operated upon by evolution, making this whole thread pointless, But no matter.

Your point was that homosexuality does not serve the species, and if anything it clearly does serve the species by reducing overpopulation, IF your claim that homosexuals reproduce less is correct.

If your claim is incorrect and homosexuals do reproduce as much as heterosexuals (through whatever means), then your whole argument, which relies on the reproduction assumption, is invalid. No matter how you look at it, there isn't anything to argue here.
Way to completely misrepresent what I said.

Of course evolution is guided by our environment. However, it does not think, "The world isn't big enough, so homosexuality is beneficial to the species."

At no point have I ever suggested that homosexuality is a genetic trait. Did you follow the other thread or just leap in here, oblivious to all context?
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:22 AM   #83
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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But how do you know that homosexuals were not necessary, or at least advantageous, at some point in the course of human evolution? They might have had some purpose, now completely redundant due to modern technology, just like wisdom teeth.
Such as?

You're grasping at straws. The only difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals is sexual preference. What could they do that heterosexuals could not?
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:22 AM   #84
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

dude why do you keep talking about what evolution "thinks"? evolution doesn't "think" anything it just happens.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:24 AM   #85
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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dude why do you keep talking about what evolution "thinks"? evolution doesn't "think" anything it just happens.
That's exactly what I've been saying.

"However, it does not think, 'The world isn't big enough, so homosexuality is beneficial to the species.'"

Learn to read.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:30 AM   #86
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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Such as?

You're grasping at straws. The only difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals is sexual preference. What could they do that heterosexuals could not?
if homosexuals can't reproduce naturally (which as you keep pointing out, they can't), they can contribute to the care and feeding of their nieces and nephews. If you have two straight guys, they're both gonna have kids and both need to concentrate on taking care of their own kids. you have a straight guy with a gay brother, maybe his brother is gonna go out with the hunters and bring home some bison meat for his brothers kids. Maybe if you have a gay brother, your kids are much more likely to survive into adulthood cuz they didn't have to compete with their cousins for food or whatever. If you have two straight sisters and one dies in childbirth, who's gonna take care of her baby? her sister has kids of her own she's gotta nurse and clean and protect from sabre-tooth-tigers, but if she has a lesbian sisters, with no kids of her own, she can do it. I have no fucking clue if any of this is true but come on dude, use your imagination.

even today, childless gay people (and lots of people without kids) pay taxes for all kinds of shit that benefits other people's kids while using none of those resources for their own kids (cuz they don't have any).
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:33 AM   #87
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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But how do you know that homosexuals were not necessary, or at least advantageous, at some point in the course of human evolution? They might have had some purpose, now completely redundant due to modern technology, just like wisdom teeth.

We also cannot totally exclude gene variants when it comes to homosexuality. If there are some gene variants somewhat responsible for homosexual behavior, then those traits might have other, beneficial effects just as the gene variant for sickle-cell anemia is maintained because it reduces the severity or prevents a person from contracting malaria.

Clydey, why are you totally excluding the genetic factor?
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:34 AM   #88
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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if homosexuals can't reproduce naturally (which as you keep pointing out, they can't), they can contribute to the care and feeding of their nieces and nephews. If you have two straight guys, they're both gonna have kids and both need to concentrate on taking care of their own kids. you have a straight guy with a gay brother, maybe his brother is gonna go out with the hunters and bring home some bison meat for his brothers kids. Maybe if you have a gay brother, your kids are much more likely to survive into adulthood cuz they didn't have to compete with their cousins for food or whatever. If you have two straight sisters and one dies in childbirth, who's gonna take care of her baby? her sister has kids of her own she's gotta nurse and clean and protect from sabre-tooth-tigers, but if she has a lesbian sisters, with no kids of her own, she can do it. I have no fucking clue if any of this is true but come on dude, use your imagination.

even today, childless gay people (and lots of people without kids) pay taxes for all kinds of shit that benefits other people's kids while using none of those resources for their own kids (cuz they don't have any).
I never at any point said that homosexuals cannot produce naturally. Of course they can. They simply choose partners that they cannot reproduce with.

Worker bees evolved for a purpose. They were selected. Homosexuality is not selected. It's not a heritable trait.

Homosexuals can reproduce. Worker bees cannot. It's that simple.
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:36 AM   #89
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Old 11-30-2008, 04:37 AM   #90
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Default Re: Homosexuality and Evolution

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We also cannot totally exclude gene variants when it comes to homosexuality. If there are some gene variants somewhat responsible for homosexual behavior, then those traits might have other, beneficial effects just as the gene variant for sickle-cell anemia is maintained because it reduces the severity or prevents a person from contracting malaria.

Clydey, why are you totally excluding the genetic factor?
I'm not totally excluding it. As I said on the first page, there is no real evidence to suggest that there is a "gay gene". That's why I'm continuing as though it's not heritable. Until there's real evidence, I'm not goig to argue as though it's likely.
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