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Old 07-20-2008, 01:39 AM   #46
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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nobody threatened the u.s., that's what counts. therefore i consider them the aggressors. the u.s. helped and china helped, so they've been equally bad in this case. bear in mind: we're talking solely about the actual aggression. it doesn't matter why these actions took place. the initial point that was raised was human rights.
The fact that America wanted to allow Vietnam and Korea the same economic freedom that they have does not make this a black mark on their human rights record. If you ask me it improves it. Whereas China wanted them controlled by dictators with similar communist principles. In both cases, it was the north that attacked, not the south. So America defended, they did not attack, hence they were not the aggressors.


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it's not that much. it's just worse.
We're not going to agree here then. And don't just compare foreign policy, look at domestic policy.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:39 AM   #47
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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Britain has won more wars than the USA and therefore is a superior nation.

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:45 AM   #48
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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Were any weapons of mass destruction found?
Of course it was a failure. But you claim the government deceived the public before the war. They didn't. It was a failure of the intelligence agencies, not the media.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:46 AM   #49
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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Of course it was a failure. But you claim the government deceived the public before the war. They didn't. It was a failure of the intelligence agencies, not the media.
The government was the one feeding the media with those lies. "Failure of the intelligence agencies"? C'mon mate, you can't be so naive...
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:47 AM   #50
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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That's the problem of democracy mate. The majority is wrong 98% of the time.
I agree to that. The majority is not interested enough in politics or thinks that it is the only task for the politicians, to take care that the life standard is being held.

The majority also just votes for that party that promises more.

But I haven´t come across a better system than democratical elections
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:48 AM   #51
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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I agree to that. The majority is not interested enough in politics or thinks that it is the only task for the politicians, to take care that the life standard is being held.

The majority also just votes for that party that promises more.

But I haven´t come across a better system than democratical elections
Unfortunately the prospects of a technocracy working out are slim in our current way of life. It would be the best, though.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:48 AM   #52
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The government was the one feeding the media with those lies. "Failure of the intelligence agencies"? C'mon mate, you can't be so naive...
Well then you obviously think the government was fed lies in the first place. Unfortunately you have no evidence to back it up.

You think the NSA and CIA never make mistakes? Don't make me laugh.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:51 AM   #53
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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Of course it was a failure. But you claim the government deceived the public before the war. They didn't. It was a failure of the intelligence agencies, not the media.
I would not agree. I think that in the USA independent media doesn´t have a bog influence on the society if there is independent media.

When a TV station only survives with advertisement it is not really independent.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:53 AM   #54
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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Well then you obviously think the government was fed lies in the first place. Unfortunately you have no evidence to back it up.

You think the NSA and CIA never make mistakes? Don't make me laugh.
I'm sure the Bush administration created those reports. The evidence is simple: no weapons were found my friend.

Man, if that was a mistake as you say, that was a huge mistake. It's like they saying that Finland has no lakes. Weapons of mass destruction aren't something you can mistake for something else. If the CIA can influence world events, government changes and so on across the whole world, then they can for sure know the real situation about Iraq.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:54 AM   #55
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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The fact that America wanted to allow Vietnam and Korea the same economic freedom that they have does not make this a black mark on their human rights record. If you ask me it improves it. Whereas China wanted them controlled by dictators with similar communist principles. In both cases, it was the north that attacked, not the south. So America defended, they did not attack, hence they were not the aggressors.
china didn't even fight in vietnam, they just supplied as far as i know. if i apply your logic concerning the u.s.-latinamerican relationship including the american tactics for decades down there, that means technically china hasn't done anything wrong whatsoever.

anyways, the thing is that america policed the world continuously during the last century and, as you know, they NEVER refrained from adopting illegal methods in order to get the job done - which obviously includes massive violations of human rights. they've been active all across the globe while china hasn't gone to any country they couldn't have reached by bike. sure, china didn't ask its people if they wanted to be free in the western sense. but has america asked those countries that suffered during american attacks if they actually believed in the values america forced upon them? both countries had certain ideologies and because both have been "in the zone" beyond belief they failed to stick to moral values in the first place.

this is going nowhere though. fact is: america has had its fair share of human rights violations. period.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:54 AM   #56
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I would not agree. I think that in the USA independent media doesn´t have a bog influence on the society if there is independent media.

When a TV station only survives with advertisement it is not really independent.
So you think the advertisers were telling CNN to only run pro-war programmes. Again, do you have any evidence to back up this paranoia?
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:58 AM   #57
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Unfortunately the prospects of a technocracy working out are slim in our current way of life. It would be the best, though.
Are you sure?

At the moment I can least say "I´m the one to blame as I vote for this", but if the individual has less influence it might just stop working the way it is supposed to.
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:59 AM   #58
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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I'm sure the Bush administration created those reports. The evidence is simple: no weapons were found my friend.

Man, if that was a mistake as you say, that was a huge mistake. It's like they saying that Finland has no lakes. Weapons of mass destruction aren't something you can mistake for something else. If the CIA can influence world events, government changes and so on across the whole world, then they can for sure know the real situation about Iraq.
Wrong. Even now they still don't know about North Korea's nuclear arsenal, or even if it exists or works. Iran is also a mystery. They only know about possible uranium enrichment programs, not how it's being used.

Look at Libya. Following the Iraq invasion they surrendered all their nuclear sites. The inspectors were shocked at how many were revealed. It's really not difficult to conceal nuclear sites in this day and age.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:02 AM   #59
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Are you sure?

At the moment I can least say "I´m the one to blame as I vote for this", but if the individual has less influence it might just stop working the way it is supposed to.
Only if the branches of administration of governments were taken by people who are the best on their fields that there would be a chance things were managed the best way possible.

The way it goes, you put a politician to manage something that he has no clue about only because he's from party A or B. He's not gonna be efficient.
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Old 07-20-2008, 02:03 AM   #60
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Default Re: Is America a Nation in Decline?

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Wrong. Even now they still don't know about North Korea's nuclear arsenal, or even if it exists or works. Iran is also a mystery. They only know about possible uranium enrichment programs, not how it's being used.

Look at Libya. Following the Iraq invasion they surrendered all their nuclear sites. The inspectors were shocked at how many were revealed. It's really not difficult to conceal nuclear sites in this day and age.
So you really think they don't know. Of course they know... the CIA knows everything about everything. Are they gonna spill the beans? No way in hell.
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