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Old 01-30-2013, 03:05 PM   #1816
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Tennis is a sport that is at the forefront of equality in sports. It is a classy game that gives equal value to men and women and respects the effort and quality of both tours. We should be celebrating the fact that there is equal pay where in so many other areas of life women are still underpaid, overlooked, and treated 2nd rate. Tennis is doing it right.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:17 PM   #1817
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

I think women's GS R1 losers get their prize money easier than men's GS R1 losers. There are more male players than female players, meaning the competition is tighter in ATP than in WTA. So, it's easier to qualify for women's GS than men's GS. To back that theory, lowest-ranked ATP player is #1976, lowest-ranked WTA player is #1157.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:47 PM   #1818
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

You need to see the practise session of Federer or Nole or Rafa and you will see what kind of difference is just for these top players. Federer is like Michael Jackson the other players just
have not got this influence.Every where you can see RF caps,RF gear. Bodyguards maybe more than
12 men around him you can not see or touch him,The guy is just macshine
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:33 PM   #1819
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Funny how others sports have not followed. Women's soccer should try demanding the same pay for their players as the men enjoy
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:28 PM   #1820
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Quote:
Originally Posted by samo7266 View Post
Tennis is a sport that is at the forefront of equality in sports. It is a classy game that gives equal value to men and women and respects the effort and quality of both tours. We should be celebrating the fact that there is equal pay where in so many other areas of life women are still underpaid, overlooked, and treated 2nd rate. Tennis is doing it right.
Strong white knight.

This 'equal' pay crap is GROSSLY unfair on men. Everyone seems so worked up about what's fair to women and no one gives a shit if it's unfair to men.

1800 or so posts in this thread and yet not one logical argument has been presented on why women deserve the same pay despite playing far less and not bringing in anywhere near the same revenue to the tour as the ATP does. Add in also that the quality is very bad compared to the ATP.

''Bu- Bu- the wimminz were treated unfairly 2000 years ago''

The same thing is happening in firefighting departments. Women's standards to become a firefighter are being LOWERED yet they get the same pay. This then produces firefighters such as these:


Actually, firefighting is a very apt comparison with tennis; the men have higher standards to pass, higher quality, certainly more work and yet get paid the same as women.
Utterly ridiculous and PC gone too far. For sure we'll see women now come in and use the shaming tactic; the go-to for all women when faced with logic: ''OMGZZZZ IT'S MISOGONY''.

Logic will always prevail.

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Old 01-31-2013, 07:01 PM   #1821
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
1800 or so posts in this thread and yet not one logical argument has been presented on why women deserve the same pay despite playing far less and not bringing in anywhere near the same revenue to the tour as the ATP does. Add in also that the quality is very bad compared to the ATP.
Are you a married person? Do you know the tiniest thing about women?

Let's start with the obvious problems in your post.

1. "anywhere near the same revenue to the tour as the ATP does" - You do know there are two tours here, quite independent of each other, WTA and ATP. Whilst they have some common tournaments, besides Grand Slams, they are not forced to collaborate with each other. Each of them is free to give prize money in any way they want. It's their sponsors' money. They cannot bring the same revenue to the tour, because they each are a separate tour.

2. "Add in also that the quality is very bad compared to the ATP." - Although that is true, and even my wife cannot stand the quality of WTA, what does this have to do with prize money? There are tons of Americans who will contest that soccer/european football is a crap sport that does not deserve the prizes it has compared to how unspectacular it is. It's a distorted opinion, because prize money is determined by the number of fans. Why do you think WTA has less fans than ATP. Just look at TF vs MTF. TF has 72000 users, whilst MTF has only 53000. Why is that?

3. Sadly, the worst argument on your table. "playing far less"
Playing far less means what exactly? Not 5-setters? Who gives a crap? Why didn't you add the correct argument? They train just as hard, or even harder. They start with a significant physical disadvantage, yet there are many examples of women even stronger than most men in their game. They are just as talented. It may seem like they play less, but they sure as hell don't train less. And of course, there's the lowlifes that talk shit about them when they're little because they enjoy sport more. There's the constant societal "putting down" only because they are women.

So yeah, here's a few logical arguments for you that are not from the year 1558. Is it unfair to men to pay them the same for training just as much, having similar fandom counts and two separate tours? Judge.


EDIT: Sadly, I didn't see your firefighter part when I wrote this. Have you tried seeing things from a different perspective? Women need to work harder to keep on par with men's level. It's natural for men to have better strength and agility. It's how humans are... My wife has been going to the gym all her life and I am still stronger than her without doing a single workout my entire life. Why is that?
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:45 PM   #1822
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
Are you a married person? Do you know the tiniest thing about women?
No I am not married and neither do I intend on getting married. Besides what's knowing things about women got to do with tennis? I'm not against equal pay because of women getting equal pay, I am against it because it's quite evidently unfair.

Quote:
1. "anywhere near the same revenue to the tour as the ATP does" - You do know there are two tours here, quite independent of each other, WTA and ATP. Whilst they have some common tournaments, besides Grand Slams, they are not forced to collaborate with each other. Each of them is free to give prize money in any way they want. It's their sponsors' money. They cannot bring the same revenue to the tour, because they each are a separate tour.
Exactly so why didn't the WTA let the free market decide the pay as opposed to making political decisions to alter the pay to make it on par with the ATP's? Why do you think women were paid lower in the past?

Quote:
2. "Add in also that the quality is very bad compared to the ATP." - Although that is true, and even my wife cannot stand the quality of WTA, what does this have to do with prize money?
So you think it's alright to be paid not on the merit of your performance and quality? Mind = Blown. If equal pay is being given of the comparative basis that men are paid more than women then the quality and performance levels have to be taken into account between them. You can't say that it's fine to compare the two tours when the pay is involved but it's somehow not an issue to be discussed when comparing the quality and performance levels.
Quote:
There are tons of Americans who will contest that soccer/european football is a crap sport that does not deserve the prizes it has compared to how unspectacular it is.
How is this in any way a comparison? European footballers are playing at an amazing level and taking football to a next level, likewise with the men's tennis, in that sense, yes they deserve to get paid what they do. The free market is also deciding their value, they're only getting paid what the fans want. This was also the case with the WTA before the feminists came in and said that they should be paid the same as men. Women's tennis isn't revolutionising the sport, the men's tour is, yet they are getting paid the same. This does not commute and is illogical.
Quote:
It's a distorted opinion, because prize money is determined by the number of fans. Why do you think WTA has less fans than ATP. Just look at TF vs MTF. TF has 72000 users, whilst MTF has only 53000. Why is that?
Hasn't TF been around for longer? It's pretty much accepted that the ATP is more well known and attracts the majority of tennis fans. Have you seen eurosports atrocious numbers for the WTA?

Quote:
3. Sadly, the worst argument on your table. "playing far less"
I don't like name calling but sadly here is where your argument goes full potato.
Quote:
Playing far less means what exactly? Not 5-setters?
Yes.
Quote:
Who gives a crap?
Cannot believe you dismissed that argument like this. Virtually every job in the world you are paid on an hour-by-hour basis. What makes tennis, specifically, women's tennis exempt from this basic business principle?
Quote:
Why didn't you add the correct argument? They train just as hard, or even harder.
So? I'm pretty sure the disabled players train as hard as they can. Why don't they get paid the same [Their pay is laughable]. The same goes for boys and girls. They also try their best why don't they get paid the same? Where does this stop? What about an up coming tennis player who is predicted to win multiple majors and titles but in an accident becomes paralysed. Should we also pay that player for what his predicted earnings were? This is logically a very fallacious argument. Also both tours are paid to perform NOT payed on how much they train. This right here just about absolutely destroys this point.
Quote:
They start with a significant physical disadvantage
This would be an apt argument if the women faced the men. They don't, so they start off on as much an equal ground as the men do with each other. I don't know what physical disadvantage they have since they're playing amongst each other.
Quote:
yet there are many examples of women even stronger than most men in their game.
Evidence of this please. Besides the point still stands; 99% of the men on the tour are stronger than every woman on the WTA. So why single out the anomaly from the women's side?

Quote:
They are just as talented.
Talented in standards used for women. Not anywhere near talented compared to the men. And this is the whole point; If you're going to compare the prize money of the two tours then you should also compare the talent BETWEEN the tours, not within the tours. Doing this you will see the men clearly are better. Hence you will find that there is no argument to pay the women the same as men since their tour is of a much lower quality.
Quote:
It may seem like they play less, but they sure as hell don't train less.
It doesn't seem, THEY DO play less. Just compare the average match timings between the tours during any tournament. You will find the men's is higher. Since the tours aren't paid to train but to perform the training excuse is redundant.

Quote:
And of course, there's the lowlifes that talk shit about them when they're little because they enjoy sport more. There's the constant societal "putting down" only because they are women.
''Oh the poor WTA wimminz, how can they handle the constant societal pressure while earning millions''

I don't think I've seen anyone criticise women for being sportswomen. Seriously I don't know where you got the idea from.

Quote:
So yeah, here's a few logical arguments for you that are not from the year 1558. Is it unfair to men to pay them the same for training just as much, having similar fandom counts and two separate tours? Judge.
I just destroyed them, despite all of them being logically fallacious.


Quote:
EDIT: Sadly, I didn't see your firefighter part when I wrote this. Have you tried seeing things from a different perspective? Women need to work harder to keep on par with men's level. It's natural for men to have better strength and agility. It's how humans are... My wife has been going to the gym all her life and I am still stronger than her without doing a single workout my entire life. Why is that?
This is marxism/socialism at its best then.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:53 PM   #1823
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Could mods sticky my response. I've pretty much single handedly dismantled nearly all of the pro equal pay arguments. Thank you.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:04 PM   #1824
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Trolololol 'they train as much as men do'. So what? If I go and train like crazy, 15 hours a day, would you give me the money Fed and Novak are making just because I put in the same amount of work? Who gives a damn Slasher. I must repeat my point: the only fair thing is to be payed for the results of your work, regardless of your gender. If you want the women to be truly equal you must give them the same prizes for the same results. How is it fair for you to be paid equal if you work more better and more efficient. It's like going to an exam and telling to the professor to give you the same grade as the student before you got (who knew better than you) and your reason being 'well, he's smart, I'm stupid, he has an unfair advantage'.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:09 PM   #1825
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Trolololol 'they train as much as men do'. So what? If I go and train like crazy, 15 hours a day, would you give me the money Fed and Novak are making just because I put in the same amount of work? Who gives a damn Slasher. I must repeat my point: the only fair thing is to be payed for the results of your work, regardless of your gender. If you want the women to be truly equal you must give them the same prizes for the same results. How is it fair for you to be paid equal if you work more better and more efficient. It's like going to an exam and telling to the professor to give you the same grade as the student before you got (who knew better than you) and your reason being 'well, he's smart, I'm stupid, he has an unfair advantage'.
Exactly. Nearly every incentive and reward in life is for ACHIEVEMENT, not EFFORT.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:16 PM   #1826
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
Exactly so why didn't the WTA let the free market decide the pay as opposed to making political decisions to alter the pay to make it on par with the ATP's? Why do you think women were paid lower in the past?
Why not? They're not taking the money out of the money given to the ATP? They're independent, they can do what they want. Who are you to decide what is a free market? WTA is a private company after all. Their decision is still part of the free market.

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
So you think it's alright to be paid not on the merit of your performance and quality? Mind = Blown. If equal pay is being given of the comparative basis that men are paid more than women then the quality and performance levels have to be taken into account between them. You can't say that it's fine to compare the two tours when the pay is involved but it's somehow not an issue to be discussed when comparing the quality and performance levels.
What quality and performance are we talking about here? What do you find spectacular in tennis? Do you find running around for the ball and always getting it spectacular? Do you find determination shown by the player against impossible odds spectacular? See, it's all a matter of opinion. WTA fans will argue that WTA is much more spectacular. Quality and performance exist as subjective to each person's view. Just go ahead, read a little on TF to make this idea clear. I'm saying that for each fanbase, both tours deliver the same amount of quality and performance each fanbase wants. See, even equality is subjective. Kind of like democracy, right?

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
How is this in any way a comparison? European footballers are playing at an amazing level and taking football to a next level, likewise with the men's tennis, in that sense, yes they deserve to get paid what they do. The free market is also deciding their value, they're only getting paid what the fans want. This was also the case with the WTA before the feminists came in and said that they should be paid the same as men. Women's tennis isn't revolutionising the sport, the men's tour is, yet they are getting paid the same. This does not commute and is illogical.
Go ahead and tell this to Steffi Graf. She didn't revolutionize anything, right? European footballers are junk over seas. Go ahead, ask Americans about "soccer". Taking football to the next level? Hah! What, instead of 2 goals per match, now we get 3? Go ahead. See what they think.

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
Hasn't TF been around for longer? It's pretty much accepted that the ATP is more well known and attracts the majority of tennis fans. Have you seen eurosports atrocious numbers for the WTA?
So, if ATP were so much more popular, why didn't it at least catch up?

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
I don't like name calling but sadly here is where your argument goes full potato.

Yes.
No. It doesn't have to be a 5-setters to be on par with "how much they play". Just see this: The longest women's match (by time) took place at a tournament in Richmond, Virginia, in 1984, when Vicki Nelson took 6 hours, 31 minutes to defeat Jean Hepner 6–4, 7–6(11–9). The match featured a 29-minute, 643-shot rally, the longest in professional tennis history. That's a two set match. The longest in men's history was a 70-68 5-setter.

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
Cannot believe you dismissed that argument like this. Virtually every job in the world you are paid on an hour-by-hour basis. What makes tennis, specifically, women's tennis exempt from this basic business principle?
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
So? I'm pretty sure the disabled players train as hard as they can. Why don't they get paid the same [Their pay is laughable]. The same goes for boys and girls. They also try their best why don't they get paid the same? Where does this stop? What about an up coming tennis player who is predicted to win multiple majors and titles but in an accident becomes paralysed. Should we also pay that player for what his predicted earnings were? This is logically a very fallacious argument. Also both tours are paid to perform NOT payed on how much they train. This right here just about absolutely destroys this point.
So, are we calling women disabled now? I was talking about testosterone, not a handicap. Alright, let's not call it a "disadvantage" for women, let's call it an "advantage" for men. Training is part of the job. If you work from 9 AM to 11 PM, but are in training between 9 AM and 5 PM, and only work between 5 PM and 11 PM, should you only be paid for the latter 6 hours?

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
This would be an apt argument if the women faced the men. They don't, so they start off on as much an equal ground as the men do with each other. I don't know what physical disadvantage they have since they're playing amongst each other.
Oh, but mister fellow Fed fan, the women are facing men. They're facing them in this debate. As in, are they working just as hard? Yes they are. Are they consuming the same amount of energy? Yes they are. Do they pay less when traveling to the tournament? No, they're not.

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
Evidence of this please. Besides the point still stands; 99% of the men on the tour are stronger than every woman on the WTA. So why single out the anomaly from the women's side?
So, they are stronger. Wow, so they are at an advantage. Wow, so that's why people like men's tennis, because they run for the ball a little more. That must be why it's spectacular. Pay them more, they're agile.

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
Talented in standards used for women. Not anywhere near talented compared to the men. And this is the whole point; If you're going to compare the prize money of the two tours then you should also compare the talent BETWEEN the tours, not within the tours. Doing this you will see the men clearly are better. Hence you will find that there is no argument to pay the women the same as men since their tour is of a much lower quality.
Talented in standards used for women. This is fascism at its best then.

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Originally Posted by GOAT = Fed View Post
It doesn't seem, THEY DO play less. Just compare the average match timings between the tours during any tournament. You will find the men's is higher. Since the tours aren't paid to train but to perform the training excuse is redundant.
See the timings argument above.

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Old 01-31-2013, 08:21 PM   #1827
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Exactly so why didn't the WTA let the free market decide the pay as opposed to making political decisions to alter the pay to make it on par with the ATP's? Why do you think women were paid lower in the past?
The free market already decides at the WTA Tour. But, slams are joint events where you can't say ATP brings this much money and WTA this much. Of course, there are joint events besides slams. But they usually have prize money of same level as separate men's and women's events. I checked last year's prize moneys for joint TMS and WTA Premier Mandatory/5 events. IW had equal pay, Miami surprisingly higher for women, and Madrid, Rome, Canada, and Cincy higher for men.

Anyway, for me it's completely OK that women's GS champ gets the same money. She plays so well as person of her gender can play. Of course, men's matches probably bring more revenue than women's matches, but it's impossible to say in a join event. And for example, when Usain Bold wins 100m World Ch'ship, he gets the same prize money as javelin throw World Champ. And for sure 100m race brought more ticket revenue.

But, as I previously pointed out, it's easier to get into women's top 100, and thus get the same money as early losers in men's slams. That's why lower prize money for early losers on women's side wouldn't be a big equality problem. IIRC French Open had a system like that but "had to" change it after Wimbledon switched to equal pay. I assume that logic is too difficult to understand for many people. But anyway, as the equal pay happens mainly in the slams, I don't think it's a big problem after all. Outside slams, men and women get as much prize money as they can get from their tours revenues, they don't steal each others' money.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:22 PM   #1828
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Originally Posted by uxyzapenje View Post
Trolololol 'they train as much as men do'. So what? If I go and train like crazy, 15 hours a day, would you give me the money Fed and Novak are making just because I put in the same amount of work? Who gives a damn Slasher. I must repeat my point: the only fair thing is to be payed for the results of your work, regardless of your gender. If you want the women to be truly equal you must give them the same prizes for the same results. How is it fair for you to be paid equal if you work more better and more efficient. It's like going to an exam and telling to the professor to give you the same grade as the student before you got (who knew better than you) and your reason being 'well, he's smart, I'm stupid, he has an unfair advantage'.
This is about money, not grades. It's not the same, since you don't spend "grades" to get to the university, you know.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:32 PM   #1829
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Originally Posted by Slasher1985 View Post
This is about money, not grades. It's not the same, since you don't spend "grades" to get to the university, you know.
How is it not the same? Are you kidding me? You work for a reward. If you have better results, you should get a bigger reward. That's the only fair thing to do. If not, tell me why isn't R1 loser getting the same money as the winner of a Slam? I'll tel you why, because results are rewarded, not effort. He exactly cares if Albert Ramos trains twice as much as Fed or Novak, nobody will give him the money for his efforts.
RESULTS, Slasher, RESULTS! You train to achieve results, effort isn't it's own goal, it never is in life. Nobody has an ambition to be 'the hardest working guy on tour' but everybody has an ambition to be the most successful.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:34 PM   #1830
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Let me take this another way.

Say you own a huge enterprise that produces sport shoes. After a few years a rival opens up a second factory that produces leisure shoes. The sport shoes are a success, but you're putting in a lot of money on the line, so the profit is getting smaller and smaller due to increased salaries and overtime working.

The leisure shoes sales are dwindling. Your rivals are basically idiots and think that they don't need to do anything. Their shoes will never be as good as the sport, so they decide to sit out and pay their employees much less, keeping the performance below average. What would be the option here? Increase the salaries of your employees, but keep the work time in check, in order to motivate your employees and encourage development and performance is the smart economist choice.

If players receive more money, they are encouraged to perform better in order to defeat the fail top players of WTA and take women's tennis to a whole new level.
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