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Old 09-06-2012, 07:23 PM   #1651
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

I can't believe people are still talking about Equal Prize Money. It has been here for five years and will never change if the Slam organizers have even just a couple of brain cells between them. It's so pointless to even bother discussing.

In reality, this isn't a ATP vs WTA issue so I don't know why people are treating it as such. The sponsors and TV broadcasters (i.e. where all the revenue is generated) all pay for the combined coverage and the ITF runs both events as one. In short, though the ATP and WTA staff still lurk around behind the scenes, the men & women are essentially one single entity at the slams. Here at the US Open, by far the biggest draw is Serena, followed by Federer then Sharapova. If we're really talking from a "business" perspective and rewarding who brings in the most money and ratings, those three would be making more per round than anyone else. Not some random ATP mug like Stakhovsky who has nothing to do with anything.

Most of your points would only be worth arguing if we were talking about equal prize money at joint WTA/ATP events, but we're not because that doesn't exist. The only joint tour event with equal prize money is IW and that is simply a marketing ploy on Larry Ellison's part, along with the hawk-eye on all courts.

Also, the slams would still make obscene amounts of ££ regardless of the state of either tour because, well, they're the Grand Slams and have their own reputations. They're free to distribute their money however they like.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:29 PM   #1652
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I can't believe people are still talking about Equal Prize Money. It has been here for five years and will never change if the Slam organizers have even just a couple of brain cells between them. It's so pointless to even bother discussing.

In reality, this isn't a ATP vs WTA issue so I don't know why people are treating it as such. The sponsors and TV broadcasters (i.e. where all the revenue is generated) all pay for the combined coverage and the ITF runs both events as one. In short, though the ATP and WTA staff still lurk around behind the scenes, the men & women are essentially one single entity at the slams. Here at the US Open, by far the biggest draw is Serena, followed by Federer then Sharapova. If we're really talking from a "business" perspective and rewarding who brings in the most money and ratings, those three would be making more per round than anyone else. Not some random ATP mug like Stakhovsky who has nothing to do with anything.

Most of your points would only be worth arguing if we were talking about equal prize money at joint WTA/ATP events, but we're not because that doesn't exist. The only joint tour event with equal prize money is IW and that is simply a marketing ploy on Larry Ellison's part, along with the hawk-eye on all courts.

Also, the slams would still make obscene amounts of ££ regardless of the state of either tour because, well, they're the Grand Slams and have their own reputations. They're free to distribute their money however they like.

Trolling, right?




Literally one of the funniest things I have ever read.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:40 PM   #1653
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Here at the US Open, by far the biggest draw is Serena, followed by Federer then Sharapova.


You've got to be shitting me.

ANDY MURRAY is probably a bigger draw than Shrapova. She is one of the most limited, unathletic players I have seen at the top of any sport. The fact that she is a career grand slam champion shows how awfully dire the situation at WTA is. Serena above Roger? Are you out of your fucking mind? Djokovic is a bigger draw than Serena.

Ask yourself this: would people rather watch Serena dismantle a bunch of overmatched mugs or rather watch ATP guys duke it out among each other. Look at how Berdych beat Federer. The ATP is a lot more interesting than the joke that is WTA.

Ask yourself this: if people were forced to watch either only the guys or the girls, who do you think they would rather watch?

Go look at tt.tennis-warehouse.com . It's a tennis forum, without specification in terms of gender. Why are like 80% of the posts and threads about the ATP?

For the same reason why WNBA players are virtual unknowns compared to NBA players and earn only a fration of what they earn.



EDIT: The other joke in your post is that you STILL whine how Stakhovsky is a mug. Who cares? How does that make his opinions wrong?

Did you hear him say that HE HIMSELF is a bigger draw than Serena? No. Just like some unknown benchwarmer on the Charlottw Bobcats probably isn't as big as a draw as Candace Parker, or how some random bum in MMA isn't as much of a big deal as Ronda Rousey.

As a whole though, mens sports have always been a much bigger deal than women's sports.

It's like Monaco is going ahead and asking for "equal pay" with the 10th best basketball player. This is about as rational.

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Old 09-06-2012, 08:49 PM   #1654
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Trolling, right?




Literally one of the funniest things I have ever read.
Look at his sig and you'll know enough. Hian mach 2.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:50 PM   #1655
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I can't believe people are still talking about Equal Prize Money. It has been here for five years and will never change if the Slam organizers have even just a couple of brain cells between them. It's so pointless to even bother discussing.

In reality, this isn't a ATP vs WTA issue so I don't know why people are treating it as such. The sponsors and TV broadcasters (i.e. where all the revenue is generated) all pay for the combined coverage and the ITF runs both events as one. In short, though the ATP and WTA staff still lurk around behind the scenes, the men & women are essentially one single entity at the slams. Here at the US Open, by far the biggest draw is Serena, followed by Federer then Sharapova . If we're really talking from a "business" perspective and rewarding who brings in the most money and ratings, those three would be making more per round than anyone else. Not some random ATP mug like Stakhovsky who has nothing to do with anything.

Most of your points would only be worth arguing if we were talking about equal prize money at joint WTA/ATP events, but we're not because that doesn't exist. The only joint tour event with equal prize money is IW and that is simply a marketing ploy on Larry Ellison's part, along with the hawk-eye on all courts.

Also, the slams would still make obscene amounts of ££ regardless of the state of either tour because, well, they're the Grand Slams and have their own reputations. They're free to distribute their money however they like.
and there goes his credibility...
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:52 PM   #1656
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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The other point is that, supposedly, people want players to be compensated for "time spent on court". That is bullshit. If you need 5 sets to beat a qualifier in round 1, you only have yourself to blame. However, the longest possible match in terms of sets played for a woman (3) is also the shortest possible match played for a man. You don't see why that would make an argument for why women don't deserve the same kind of money? Regardless of performance, regardless if you have won the first 2 sets without losing a point, you still have 1 more set to play. A woman can go back to shower already. That's horse shit.
And if the ATP players have a problem with it and feel the money they're being paid is unfair compared to the women, they should be campaigning for best of 3 sets. It's pretty simple.

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In my opinion, the "best of 5 sets" argument is way stronger than the revenue argument. But even the revenue argument is way stronger than you think. In just about every sport, men make more because in just about any sport, watching men compete is more fun. Nothing to whine about, female models also earn more because for some reason, watching women prance around a catwalk is more fun that watching a dude do it.
Using other women's sports as a reference point is completely pointless because 1) The WTA is by far the biggest women's sport on the planet. 2) Unlike other women's sports the WTA has always had its own identity and personalities that have distinguished themselves from the ATP. 3) It is the only sport with a long history of sharing the biggest stages with their male counterparts, and they did this long before there was equal prize money and joint events became a trend. Finally, joint events create far more revenue than anything the women or men can make on their own.

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ATP players get sour about this because they KNOW that women wouldn't make anywhere near as much prize money if it wasn't for the men. On themselves, they are simply not interesting enough to watch, to make the same kind of money. You can always go ad hominem and say how certain female players are bigger deals than Stakhy and Tipsy. But bottomline is, overall, on their own, women would never generate that much money. They are piggybacking the men by claiming "equal prize money". And THAT'S what pisses them off.
Gotta love the whole "piggybacking" argument that ATP fans and players always bring up. You claim the WTA is nothing but a sideshow in these events, yet they apparently hold all the power and have forced the ATP into joint events against their will? Come on now. That's ridiculous.

In reality, it's the tournaments and TDs that benefit most from joint events. They want their event to resemble the slams as closely as possible because that's what brings in revenue and public interest. There's even talk of combining the broadcasting rights to make these events even more similar to them. Cincinnati had its best ever attendance 2 weeks ago and the Rome TD was raving about how much more money and interest the joint event brings in. The decision to combine the events was proposed and brought into fruition over the course of years and the ATP cooperated and completely agreed to it. It's not changing anytime soon.

I agree that the WTA benefit more from this arrangement than the ATP right now, but it won't always be the case and the ATP clearly benefit too. The hard facts are that Federer and Nadal have kept the tour afloat for the last half decade and their presence has made the ATP appear more popular and secure than it actually is. The ATP need to be looking to the future and joint events are the only way when looking at the lack of marketability and (relative) lack of talent on the horizon.

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That's why I find it smart that they are looking to seperate the joint events. It would solve the problem, without breaking up the oh so progressive "equal prize money". Equal to whom? Males in another tournament?
There's absolutely nothing smart about that. It's never going to happen because the tournaments won't allow it and the ATP decided on joint events for a reason.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:57 PM   #1657
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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And if the ATP players have a problem with it and feel the money they're being paid is unfair compared to the women, they should be campaigning for best of 3 sets. It's pretty simple.


Using other women's sports as a reference point is completely pointless because 1) The WTA is by far the biggest women's sport on the planet. 2) Unlike other women's sports the WTA has always had its own identity and personalities that have distinguished themselves from the ATP. 3) It is the only sport with a long history of sharing the biggest stages with their male counterparts, and they did this long before there was equal prize money and joint events became a trend. Finally, joint events create far more revenue than anything the women or men can make on their own.


Gotta love the whole "piggybacking" argument that ATP fans and players always bring up. You claim the WTA is nothing but a sideshow in these events, yet they apparently hold all the power and have forced the ATP into joint events against their will? Come on now. That's ridiculous.

In reality, it's the tournaments and TDs that benefit most from joint events. They want their event to resemble the slams as closely as possible because that's what brings in revenue and public interest. There's even talk of combining the broadcasting rights to make these events even more similar to them. Cincinnati had its best ever attendance 2 weeks ago and the Rome TD was raving about how much more money and interest the joint event brings in. The decision to combine the events was proposed and brought into fruition over the course of years and the ATP cooperated and completely agreed to it. It's not changing anytime soon.

I agree that the WTA benefit more from this arrangement than the ATP right now, but it won't always be the case and the ATP clearly benefit too. The hard facts are that Federer and Nadal have kept the tour afloat for the last half decade and their presence has made the ATP appear more popular and secure than it actually is. The ATP need to be looking to the future and joint events are the only way when looking at the lack of marketability and (relative) lack of talent on the horizon.


There's absolutely nothing smart about that. It's never going to happen because the tournaments won't allow it and the ATP decided on joint events for a reason.
I wasn't reading this whole thing but my eyes came across this and I just had to laugh. There is sooooooooooooo much talent a few years down the line it's insane.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:03 PM   #1658
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I wasn't reading this whole thing but my eyes came across this and I just had to laugh. There is sooooooooooooo much talent a few years down the line it's insane.
Milos Raonic? Bernard Tomic? Ryan Harrison? Grigor Dimitrov? Give me examples, then. I know there are a few talented juniors but none are old enough or have successfully transitioned onto the main tour yet. The post Fedal years is currently a crappy transitional era.
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Old 09-06-2012, 09:14 PM   #1659
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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And if the ATP players have a problem with it and feel the money they're being paid is unfair compared to the women, they should be campaigning for best of 3 sets. It's pretty simple.
Yeah, and thereby take out all the mystique that Grand Slam tournemants have.

Women aren't much inferior to men in stamina. The only argument you could make is that women are naturally weaker servers cuz they are shorter and therefore would have to work way harder to win and therefore, gas out. But then again, Ferrer doesn't exactly have a godlike serve either and he's doing fine. They should man up and at least play the second week BO5. Men should play first week BO3, to avoid scheduling conflicts.

That would improve quality in both tours: Top guys would be upset early far more often which would lead to more unpredictability nas opposed to those constant top 4 SF matchups.

The BO5 format in the second week with the girls would lead to more stability at the top. No more 1 slam winners who disappear for an entire year. Those who win slams are those who can keep it up consistently.

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Using other women's sports as a reference point is completely pointless because 1) The WTA is by far the biggest women's sport on the planet. 2) Unlike other women's sports the WTA has always had its own identity and personalities that have distinguished themselves from the ATP. 3) It is the only sport with a long history of sharing the biggest stages with their male counterparts, and they did this long before there was equal prize money and joint events became a trend. Finally, joint events create far more revenue than anything the women or men can make on their own.
You are right when you say that women's tennis is a bigger deal than, say, women's basketball or soccer. But they are still not in the league of the guys, who generate much more of a buzz.

I also wonder why you keep referencing that it is in tournament directors interest to have joint events. I know. They could always pay the guys an extra bonus for bringing in the majority of the money, as a bonus, cuz let's face it: it's true.

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I agree that the WTA benefit more from this arrangement than the ATP right now, but it won't always be the case and the ATP clearly benefit too. The hard facts are that Federer and Nadal have kept the tour afloat for the last half decade and their presence has made the ATP appear more popular and secure than it actually is. The ATP need to be looking to the future and joint events are the only way when looking at the lack of marketability and (relative) lack of talent on the horizon.
If the ATP is really so dire that people would rather watch WTA, then so be it. Then, they deserve to be paid MORE, not equally. At least then, capitalism will have spoken and not bullshit PC.

I also don't understand what you mean by "Nadal and Fed made the ATP seem more popular than they are". Yeah, they are the main reason for that, but they also get the lion share of the money, so it's cool again. All those guy who nobody cares about get a tiny fraction compared to them.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:16 PM   #1660
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Trolling, right?




Literally one of the funniest things I have ever read.
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and there goes his credibility...
I'm not following what's funny here. It's different in other territories, but in the USA Sharapova is huge. It's a fact. Her public profile is far bigger than Djokovic's & Murray, she has more fans and she brings more people to the tennis.

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You've got to be shitting me.

ANDY MURRAY is probably a bigger draw than Shrapova. She is one of the most limited, unathletic players I have seen at the top of any sport. The fact that she is a career grand slam champion shows how awfully dire the situation at WTA is.
I really couldn't care less what you think of Sharapova as a player, but the fact is that she is massive in the US and one of the most well-known players and sportspeople in general. Andy Murray is nothing without Federer and Nadal propping him up.

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Serena above Roger? Are you out of your fucking mind? Djokovic is a bigger draw than Serena.
Please. Of the five US Open finals Serena has played in, two of them are the highest-rated since the 1980s and the other one is right next to peak Agassi and Sampras in their finals. Her two recent finals each both have a higher audience share than all of Federer's finals, including when he played Americans Agassi and Roddick in the final.

So... yeah. Serena is massive in America, she's American. It's logical.

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Ask yourself this: would people rather watch Serena dismantle a bunch of overmatched mugs or rather watch ATP guys duke it out among each other. Look at how Berdych beat Federer. The ATP is a lot more interesting than the joke that is WTA.
Ratings say yes. And the fact that they put Serena-Ivanovic in the primetime slot over Federer-Berdych also says yes. Also, Federer was crap yesterday and did you not see the embarrassing joke of a match that was Murray-Cilic? Or Wawrinka withdrawing to Djokovic because he knew he wasn't going to win.

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Ask yourself this: if people were forced to watch either only the guys or the girls, who do you think they would rather watch?
Djokovic walked out onto a literally empty stadium yesterday because everyone was watching Sharapova-Bartoli on AA, and only after Roddick's loss did Armstrong fill up at the end of Murray's match. They made their choice without being forced into anything.

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Go look at tt.tennis-warehouse.com . It's a tennis forum, without specification in terms of gender. Why are like 80% of the posts and threads about the ATP?
Tennisforum is bigger than MTF, Sharapova has far more fans on her facebook than Djokovic and Murray with both their facebook and twitter accounts combined...your point?

Quote:
EDIT: The other joke in your post is that you STILL whine how Stakhovsky is a mug. Who cares? How does that make his opinions wrong?

Did you hear him say that HE HIMSELF is a bigger draw than Serena? No. Just like some unknown benchwarmer on the Charlottw Bobcats probably isn't as big as a draw as Candace Parker, or how some random bum in MMA isn't as much of a big deal as Ronda Rousey.

My point was that if we're talking about tennis as a "business" and paying people who bring the money and interest into the sport, that group (Serena, Federer, Sharapova, Djokovic...) would be getting paid more per round than the rest of them.

But it isn't. If the WTA players are leeches, then so are the lower mugs (on either tour) who collect $17k cheques for losing in the first round. They all fall under the same governing body in slams and should be treated as such.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:05 PM   #1661
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Old 09-06-2012, 11:17 PM   #1662
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Tutu should be first banned poster for failling in logic department.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:35 PM   #1663
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Sharapova bigger than Andy Murray and Djokovic

The problem is Tutu the delusional eejit assumes AMERICAN TV RATINGS are a gauge of what the WORLD thinks. Well wake up, the Williams sisters are big in the US because they're AMERICAN, and they represent the black community as well which makes up a large part of the United States.

In the rest of the world, Murray and Djokovic usurp Sharapova/Serena and it's not close.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:37 PM   #1664
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Sharapova bigger than Andy Murray and Djokovic

The problem is Tutu the delusional eejit assumes AMERICAN TV RATINGS are a gauge of what the WORLD thinks. Well wake up, the Williams sisters are big in the US because they're AMERICAN, and they represent the black community as well which makes up a large part of the United States.

In the rest of the world, Murray and Djokovic usurp Sharapova/Serena and it's not close.
Thank you. But Tutu is trolling anyway so whatever.
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:44 PM   #1665
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tutu View Post
.

Ratings say yes. And the fact that they put Serena-Ivanovic in the primetime slot over Federer-Berdych also says yes.
errr, Tutu, I hope you do realize that Roger's actually was the main feature and primetime slot and Serena's match was the opening act, right? ... I also hope you agree that the US Open organizers have more experience and knowledge than you regarding scheduling, and there is a logical reason why the women come first at the night session of later stages? (hint: empty stadium)...

I mean, you may or may not be for equal prize money, that is your personal opinion, but you possibly cannot prove the WTA is more popular among fans, when all the indication, prize money and attendance prove it otherwise... and Sharapova's facebook followers do not prove the tour is popular, only that she is...

Last edited by tennis elbow : 09-06-2012 at 11:50 PM.
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