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Old 09-06-2012, 03:39 AM   #1636
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

I've never understood this debate because men are earning higher except at the grand slams. Let's compare an ATP player and WTA player of a similar age.

Andy Murray
Age: 25
Career Matches: 481
Titles: 23
Grand Slams: 0
Prize Money: $21,542,501

Maria Sharapova
Age: 25
Career Matches: 567
Titles: 27
Grand Slams: 4
Prize Money: $21,128,860

Murray has played less matches,won less titles,won less grand slams where the big money is and STILL has more career prize money. What does this tell you? Prize money is not equal at all between ATP and WTA
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:41 AM   #1637
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziros View Post
I've never understood this debate because men are earning higher except at the grand slams. Let's compare an ATP player and WTA player of a similar age.

Andy Murray
Age: 25
Career Matches: 481
Titles: 23
Grand Slams: 0
Prize Money: $21,542,501

Maria Sharapova
Age: 25
Career Matches: 567
Titles: 27
Grand Slams: 4
Prize Money: $21,128,860

Murray has played less matches,won less titles,won less grand slams where the big money is and STILL has more career prize money. What does this tell you? Prize money is not equal at all between ATP and WTA
I contest your conclusions. I think they are invalid.

Here are my conclusions. These numbers tell me:

* Murray is more consistent than Shriekapova
* Murray has gone deeper in more tourneys

Furthermore, sir, I believe Shriekapova should be fined for driving fans away from WTA events due to her intense sirenations. (Yes, on MTF I have the freedom to invent words)
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:48 AM   #1638
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Sharapova: 44 finals,career win %: 80.42
Murray: 35 finals,career win %: 75.57
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:14 AM   #1639
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziros View Post
I've never understood this debate because men are earning higher except at the grand slams. Let's compare an ATP player and WTA player of a similar age.

Andy Murray
Age: 25
Career Matches: 481
Titles: 23
Grand Slams: 0
Prize Money: $21,542,501

Maria Sharapova
Age: 25
Career Matches: 567
Titles: 27
Grand Slams: 4
Prize Money: $21,128,860

Murray has played less matches,won less titles,won less grand slams where the big money is and STILL has more career prize money. What does this tell you? Prize money is not equal at all between ATP and WTA
It's true that over all the WTA players make less. With the exception of the few major events. just less money in the women s game, not that it's still not a lot of money. That is a function of sponsorship and less money to go around.

But if your comparing these two players in particular, Sharapova has made FAR more money in her career in sponsorship etc, so prize money isnt really the point in the comparison between the two. The only tennis player on the planet who has probably made more total career money then her would be Fed.
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:09 AM   #1640
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

The pay should stay the same because if they try to change it that will cause too much controversy, but one thing is for sure: women tennis sucks monkey balls. Women with non-complete skillset can make it far in the slams (Roberta Vinci). I watched few matches live at USO this year and the difference between men and women tennis is shocking. I mean I am sure most of you already know that.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:10 AM   #1641
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

It's funny how, when they started bringing this issue, the level of tennis in ATP really went down, it's like who plays worse in that day rather than who plays there best. And the WTA has shown quality matches, rather watch a quality 3 set than a mugfest of 5 sets. Just in the US Open, in the quarters 2 quality matches in WTA and Serena's performance. The Murray-Cilic match sucked, so did Djokovic-Wawrinka. Just look at how horrible Tipsarevic matches are he doesn't even need to force errors. In Wimbledon only the Ferrer-Murray and Kohli-Tsonga match had quality from quarter onwards, whereas WTA had Azarenka-Paszek, Serena-Kvitova, Radwanska-Kirilenko, and Serena-Azarenka.
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Old 09-06-2012, 08:10 AM   #1642
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Originally Posted by dangalak View Post
I quite honestly can't believe that such a juvenile a nd petty person such as you is also made out of 70% water just like me. It's mindboggling.

Tipsarevic, Stakhovsky and Simon are each more likable and interesting that 90% of the joke tour that is the WTA.

The absolutely hilarious part of this debate is that Stakhovsky didn't say that he wants women to receive less. He even explicitly said that he doesn't care how much women earn. Yet, whiny feminists and the homosexuals over at TF keep whining because Stakhy is making statements and arguments he literally never made.

What absolutely gets me is that, the main argument that these supposed "mysogynists" produce, the best of 5 sets argument, is actually far more progressive and egalitarian that any of those queens could possibly even conceive. Topsy basically says that it's laughable that women here are made to play a different, physically less demanding sport....just because.

Feminists used to complain because women weren't allowed to run marathons. Now they complain because Tipsy wants them to play the sport under the same rules. This is the first time a guy asking for equal pay for equal work is derided as a sexist ****.

I also haven't seen a bunch of people torn apart quite as hard as the girls here in this thread. I mean you probably can't even comprehend how superior these guys are to you in reasoning and debating skill, but let me tell you, it's a MASSACRE.
I'm fairly certain you go through life finding everything "mindboggling". As far as Stakhovsky never saying he wanted women to earn less, maybe you could explain what he meant when said, " still think that we should not be equal because of the amount of work we do, the amount of time we spend on court, it’s just different. You cannot compare it. And I think you cannot even compare the revenue that the men’s sports bring into the Grand Slams compared to the women’s. When it comes to equality, it’s not equality, it’s business. Pure revenue and business, it’s nothing personal…I mean, why are male models underpaid compared to women?…So, [in tennis] are we supposed to pay women more just for looks". http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2012-08-23/10542.php. It's not rocket science so I don't know why you are so confused by his comments.

You are also wrong to suggest WTA players are complaining about the prospect of playing best of 5 sets. I haven't heard any of them refuse to do this. The problem is that it is not even on the table as even the men are currently resisting pressure to go down to best of 3 at GS. There is no way the GS will agree to women playing best of 5.

The adult human body is composed of roughly 60% water so maybe all the excess fluid you have explains your confusion here.

I'm a man by the way but in response to your last misogynistic comment, given the way your post has just been "massacred", you must be considering a sex change right now.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:53 AM   #1643
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dangalak View Post
I quite honestly can't believe that such a juvenile a nd petty person such as you is also made out of 70% water just like me. It's mindboggling.

Tipsarevic, Stakhovsky and Simon are each more likable and interesting that 90% of the joke tour that is the WTA.
You state that as if it's a fact but how about no? I can't stand Tipsy, I have no opinion on Staks (in other words, I don't care about him), and Simon's game bores the living shit out of me. I'd rather watch a WTA match than any of those 3 play (unless their opponent is Fed) and I wouldn't be choosy at all about which WTA players are playing.


Quote:
What absolutely gets me is that, the main argument that these supposed "mysogynists" produce, the best of 5 sets argument, is actually far more progressive and egalitarian that any of those queens could possibly even conceive. Topsy basically says that it's laughable that women here are made to play a different, physically less demanding sport....just because.
I agree that women should play best of 5, but on the other hand, you have randoms on MTF crying about how they wouldn't get to watch their beloved ATP players on time or at all if the women "wasted time" playing best of 5 matches. I understand the argument against equal prize money, but what pisses me off about Tipsy's stupid Twitter comments is that he used Serena's double bagel victory as an example of why equal prize money is ridiculous. First, Serena is a force unto herself so nothing about that victory was surprising. Second, Serena is in a league of her own and it was absolutely disingenuous of Tips to bring up an exception to make a point. How many other WTA matches in the US Open have gone the distance to even out or even overshadow that one Serena match in terms of the length of the match and the competitiveness of the match? Azarenka/Stosur went to a third set tie-break; Sharapova played deciding sets in her last two matches; Venus and Kerber played a long match as well. If he wants to bitch about equal prize money, he should have armed himself with better arguments. Obviously the point isn't about how much time is spent on court or how easy or difficult it was for the player to win; the point is that the women don't play best of 5 and yet get paid the amount as the men. If that's the case, he shouldn't have whined about Serena bulldozing her opponent because that's really beside the point.

Quote:
I also haven't seen a bunch of people torn apart quite as hard as the girls here in this thread. I mean you probably can't even comprehend how superior these guys are to you in reasoning and debating skill, but let me tell you, it's a MASSACRE.
This crap isn't even worthy of a proper response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dencod16 View Post
It's funny how, when they started bringing this issue, the level of tennis in ATP really went down, it's like who plays worse in that day rather than who plays there best. And the WTA has shown quality matches, rather watch a quality 3 set than a mugfest of 5 sets. Just in the US Open, in the quarters 2 quality matches in WTA and Serena's performance. The Murray-Cilic match sucked, so did Djokovic-Wawrinka. Just look at how horrible Tipsarevic matches are he doesn't even need to force errors. In Wimbledon only the Ferrer-Murray and Kohli-Tsonga match had quality from quarter onwards, whereas WTA had Azarenka-Paszek, Serena-Kvitova, Radwanska-Kirilenko, and Serena-Azarenka.
You forgot Wozniacki/Paszek. Both players played well that match and produced some amazing shots. Incredible quality for a first round match and for a Wozniacki match.
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Old 09-06-2012, 12:38 PM   #1644
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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And your "normal non-mediated social interaction" is what? This forum? Haha, no wonder you are so out of touch and still fighting a battle that was lost long ago.

As to your final point about the two tours separating, you will find few supporters for that except maybe on the "normal non-mediated social interaction" (love that phrase) that is MTF but only among the posters who have yet to reach puberty. As I keep telling you, tennis is a business and its success lies in reaching the widest audience possible. In a difficult market, tennis is doing remarkably well and being a sport that values and promotes both sexes is part of the reason why. You only have to look at the increased number of combined events to see the ATP recognises that as well.
I wasn't thinking of this forum actually, no, but would remind you that you are participating in it too.

Have you got any evidence that "valuing & promoting both sexes" has contributed to tennis's popularity? Have you any idea how many people's favourite female player is the one who wins the first set? Have you considered that valuing & promoting both sexes needn't involve equal prize money?
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:37 PM   #1645
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

Since 2007, women’s participation in tennis has increased by quite a large margin. The ITF, USTA, LTA, Tennis Australia, etc all publish these figures on their websites, so have a look.

Women’s participation in the sport is important economically because they are a major untapped market – the male market as far as sport is concerned is pretty much exhausted. Tennis is lucky in the regard that it is quite a feminine sport, not many women are going to be taking up football.

For example, Nike Tennis has a larger commercial power than the ATP and that helped push the Federer-Nadal rivalry. Nike Tennis generates the majority of its revenue from the sale of women apparel – so it is important to them that women’s tennis is on par with men’s tennis. When Nike was holding all those Champions exhibitions a couple of years ago, female players were always involved.

Look at it this way: Nike endorses four ATP Top 30 players – on the WTA, Nike endorses nine players in the Top 30. Each player generally wears a different line of apparel – Nike has more women’s clothing to show off. Why? Because women are more likely to purchase the latest lines, so they sponsor more WTA players. The revenue this generates helps with ATP marketing and the Federer-Nadal rivalry was pushed by Nike for their commercial purposes.

You can tell from the reactions that equal prize money is important to women, so why piss them off? Appealing to men isn’t going to grow the sport significantly but attracting women is.
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Old 09-06-2012, 02:41 PM   #1646
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
I wasn't thinking of this forum actually, no, but would remind you that you are participating in it too.

Have you got any evidence that "valuing & promoting both sexes" has contributed to tennis's popularity? Have you any idea how many people's favourite female player is the one who wins the first set? Have you considered that valuing & promoting both sexes needn't involve equal prize money?
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:55 PM   #1647
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

someone just compared sharapova and murray

sharapova has made so much more money from endorsements than her tennis career that its not funny

it's the same for federer, nadal, serena, venus, any multiple grand slam winner

even in the 90s, sampras and agassi made shitloads from endorsements

tennis is a very poorly rewarded sport with a high casualty rate. prize money must be distributed more evenly instead of being top heavy

the simple fact is that grand slam money has increased over the last 20 years, challengers money has not. there is the problem, nothing to do with gender
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:59 PM   #1648
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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You have the cheek to say:

Then proceed to write that piece of crap below.

Stick to tennis love, you haven't got a clue about football.
You still didn't answer my question people here are arguing for equal pay for equal work, saying men deserve more because they play more sets. Footballers that play the same amount of time are paid wildly different amounts based on individual value. The more entertaining players earn more, but how do you quantify that in tennis? You can't. You win or you lose. You can't make arbitrary distinctions between which players are arguably more entertaining and then use that as a judge for how you pay them. You can't use popularity either because guess what, Stakhovsky and Tipsarevic would make less than Sharapova and Serena and all the low ranked players would continue to suffer. Unless people are arguing that players who play five sets deserve more than those who play three, since they're putting in the most effort?

By the way, I'm not your "love" and have no need for your condescending attitude


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Originally Posted by Tag View Post
tennis is a very poorly rewarded sport with a high casualty rate. prize money must be distributed more evenly instead of being top heavy

the simple fact is that grand slam money has increased over the last 20 years, challengers money has not. there is the problem, nothing to do with gender
Bingo.
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:44 PM   #1649
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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I agree that women should play best of 5, but on the other hand, you have randoms on MTF crying about how they wouldn't get to watch their beloved ATP players on time or at all if the women "wasted time" playing best of 5 matches. I understand the argument against equal prize money, but what pisses me off about Tipsy's stupid Twitter comments is that he used Serena's double bagel victory as an example of why equal prize money is ridiculous. First, Serena is a force unto herself so nothing about that victory was surprising. Second, Serena is in a league of her own and it was absolutely disingenuous of Tips to bring up an exception to make a point. How many other WTA matches in the US Open have gone the distance to even out or even overshadow that one Serena match in terms of the length of the match and the competitiveness of the match? Azarenka/Stosur went to a third set tie-break; Sharapova played deciding sets in her last two matches; Venus and Kerber played a long match as well. If he wants to bitch about equal prize money, he should have armed himself with better arguments. Obviously the point isn't about how much time is spent on court or how easy or difficult it was for the player to win; the point is that the women don't play best of 5 and yet get paid the amount as the men. If that's the case, he shouldn't have whined about Serena bulldozing her opponent because that's really beside the point.
Look at it this way: When Djokovic double bageled Berlocq, he still had another set to play, last year.

Since you agree with the main point, no reason to argue.
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Old 09-06-2012, 07:05 PM   #1650
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Default Re: Equal prize money debate (Rob Koenig and Tipsarevic agree with Gilles Simon)

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You still didn't answer my question people here are arguing for equal pay for equal work, saying men deserve more because they play more sets. Footballers that play the same amount of time are paid wildly different amounts based on individual value. The more entertaining players earn more, but how do you quantify that in tennis? You can't. You win or you lose. You can't make arbitrary distinctions between which players are arguably more entertaining and then use that as a judge for how you pay them. You can't use popularity either because guess what, Stakhovsky and Tipsarevic would make less than Sharapova and Serena and all the low ranked players would continue to suffer. Unless people are arguing that players who play five sets deserve more than those who play three, since they're putting in the most effort?
1. Ronaldo and Messi get more money for the same time spent on the pitch cuz they are better players. In tennis terms. This is like asking "why does a USO finalist get more than a guy who fought his way till the 4th round with 5 setters?".

2. Tipsarevic and Stakhovsky never said they deserve more than top female players. Where do you get that shit. Tipsy implied that 5 setters aside, men should be paid more because that's what happens in every sport. He never said that a nobody in ATP should earn more than absolute legends in WTA though.

This is something that bothers me. Even if men were to get twice as much as women for the same result, Tipsy and Simon would earn WAY less than Serena and co on court cuz they never made a semifinal in slams.

This is what I mean when I say "you are being massacred". You are arguing against arguments that no one even thought of. The "Simon thinks he deserves more prize money than Serena and Sharpie" strawman is a fucking joke.

The other point is that, supposedly, people want players to be compensated for "time spent on court". That is bullshit. If you need 5 sets to beat a qualifier in round 1, you only have yourself to blame. However, the longest possible match in terms of sets played for a woman (3) is also the shortest possible match played for a man. You don't see why that would make an argument for why women don't deserve the same kind of money? Regardless of performance, regardless if you have won the first 2 sets without losing a point, you still have 1 more set to play. A woman can go back to shower already. That's horse shit.


In my opinion, the "best of 5 sets" argument is way stronger than the revenue argument. But even the revenue argument is way stronger than you think. In just about every sport, men make more because in just about any sport, watching men compete is more fun. Nothing to whine about, female models also earn more because for some reason, watching women prance around a catwalk is more fun that watching a dude do it.

ATP players get sour about this because they KNOW that women wouldn't make anywhere near as much prize money if it wasn't for the men. On themselves, they are simply not interesting enough to watch, to make the same kind of money. You can always go ad hominem and say how certain female players are bigger deals than Stakhy and Tipsy. But bottomline is, overall, on their own, women would never generate that much money. They are piggybacking the men by claiming "equal prize money". And THAT'S what pisses them off.

That's why I find it smart that they are looking to seperate the joint events. It would solve the problem, without breaking up the oh so progressive "equal prize money". Equal to whom? Males in another tournament?

In short, if there were no joint events, women would make much less than men, just like in any other sport. But since tennis has joint events, girls can just ride their coat tails and ask for the same compensation. No other sport has this.

I for one, can see where they are coming from.
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