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View Poll Results: Do you agree with Pete?

No. I think Federer's decline is a fact and he's not winning any major in the future. 38 17.35%
I kinda agree... He's in a great moment, but the other 2 guys are too good. No more slams for Feddy 45 20.55%
I totally agree. Fed's still playing great tennis and he'll probably win another major 104 47.49%
Hello. I'm Rod Laver and my records are intact. Suck it losers. 32 14.61%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-24-2012, 03:31 PM   #556
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
Some of you Federer fans really do take that Foster Wallace piece literally apparently and it is a religious experience for you.

Federer can have a dip in form and still be in his prime. But more importantly, players like Karlovic, Blake, Fish and Roddick SHOULD have occasionally beaten Federer. The odd thing would be that they NEVER beat him, not that they beat him once or twice.

And he can also start running into considerably tougher players such as Nadal and Djokovic (as well as Murray outside of majors) who start to chip away at his aura of invincibility just as Djokovic did to Nadal on clay last year in fact and that it helps this process along.


These propositions are not that hard to follow if you try.

What IS hard to follow is that a man is 26 yet somehow out of his tennis prime such that his loss to Nadal in the FO open where he was obliterated had nothing to do with an unreal performance from Nadal but rather it's all about with a premature decline from one of the sport's fittest players at 26.

There is probably no evidence that will impact the mindset that produces the idea that Federer at 26, in the middle of winning slams etc, was not in his prime.
Funny "dip in form" that goes on for 4.5 seasons & counting....

I've frequently said that Nadal's performance in the 2008 R.G. final was one of the great performances of the Open Era, but if you seriously think any match between 2 great players ends 1,3,0 with both at their best you are the one who is getting religious.

Perhaps those other guys should indeed have beaten Federer before. Perhaps Federer should have beaten Nadal at least once at R.G. But doesn't it strike you as a teeny bit coincidental that they all suddenly scored those victories they should have got - in the same season?
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:40 PM   #557
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
Funny "dip in form" that goes on for 4.5 seasons & counting....

I've frequently said that Nadal's performance in the 2008 R.G. final was one of the great performances of the Open Era, but if you seriously think any match between 2 great players ends 1,3,0 with both at their best you are the one who is getting religious.

Perhaps those other guys should indeed have beaten Federer before. Perhaps Federer should have beaten Nadal at least once at R.G. But doesn't it strike you as a teeny bit coincidental that they all suddenly scored those victories they should have got - in the same season?
The "dip in form" goes on (and not even that much at first let's be honest) in large part because Federer now had two REAL rivals entering adulthood.

Remove those two guys and Federer has a calendar year slam potentially. Don't forget that please.

They break the aura somewhat and a few other guys start to believe a little in much the same way that has happened a bit with Nadal now after Djokovic broke through. It doesn't mean Nadal (or Federer) doesn't still win mostly or aren't in their primes (even if not necessarily their very 110% best).

As for that RG 2008 match, I am sure that Roger's very best performance gets him more than 4 games but what I also know is that NO performance from Safin or Nalbandian on any surface gets them anywhere near that with Federer, off day or not.

And that was this thread's point: the top 2 guys other than Roger are better than they ever were and several of the other guys (minus that mental domination) have a LOT of game.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:42 PM   #558
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Negative, tribalfusion, delusional post.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:47 PM   #559
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
I replied to this in another post but I will have one last go at it.

Federer doing worse against Nadal and Djokovic at 26 (very much in his physical prime) is not inconsistent with them playing better than they had which is normal considering that they were coming INTO their primes.

Federer wasn't simply outlasted at Wimbledon and that is a very disingenuous way of putting it. He was beaten by the next best grass player coming into his own who nearly did it the year before as well and it can easily be read as more evidence of what I am getting at here.

A few other losses from very good players mostly with great serves who should occasionally find form and SHOULD beat Federer once or twice especially as his aura is chipped away at by Nadal and Djokovic is natural.


So, my main point and the only reason I discussed any of this was to say that the field is stiffer today than it was in the past if we look at the top 3 guys. Both Nadal (especially) but also Djokovic have what it takes to give Federer real matches consistently and occasionally beat him solidly in ways that Nalbandian and Safin could not.

I am also saying that in terms of playing ability if we look at some of those 2nd tier guys who can't break through like Tsonga, Soderling, Del Po to some extent, they perhaps have developed mental hang ups as a result of prolonged periods of domination by these 3 guys which is something that we really see from Fed's reign onward.
Why do you keep repeating that 26 is "very much in his physical prime" when all the evidence shows that since tennis got more physical, great players' performance begins to drop off at 26, & sometimes before? This was true of Mac, Connors, Borg, Becker, Edberg, Wilander, Sampras, Nastase, in fact of pretty much everybody except late-blooming Lendl, whose decline began at the whopping age of 28, & Agassi, who was so up & down throughout his 20s you can't identify a trend. Contrary to what you imply, it is no surprise that Federer showed a decline in the season he turned 27; it would be strange if he hadn't, & in this case it was compounded by illness, which affected his usual training regimen. A few other losses to big servers who hadn't beat him in years all happening suddenly in the same season are indeed only natural - for a great player in decline.

But I will happily agree that the 2 other members of the top 3 are stiffer competition for Fed than any 2 & 3 in his prime.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:53 PM   #560
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
The "dip in form" goes on (and not even that much at first let's be honest) in large part because Federer now had two REAL rivals entering adulthood.

Remove those two guys and Federer has a calendar year slam potentially. Don't forget that please.

They break the aura somewhat and a few other guys start to believe a little in much the same way that has happened a bit with Nadal now after Djokovic broke through. It doesn't mean Nadal (or Federer) doesn't still win mostly or aren't in their primes (even if not necessarily their very 110% best).

As for that RG 2008 match, I am sure that Roger's very best performance gets him more than 4 games but what I also know is that NO performance from Safin or Nalbandian on any surface gets them anywhere near that with Federer, off day or not.

And that was this thread's point: the top 2 guys other than Roger are better than they ever were and several of the other guys (minus that mental domination) have a LOT of game.
No, the "dip in form" goes on because Federer, in common with every great sportsman & practically every Open Era tennis great from age 26, is declining with age, as evidenced by his record of losses against players other than Nadal & Djoker. Nadal has been beating Fed since 2004 so I hardly think it is the rather weird, vague, intangible insipiration of his victories that has enabled others to start beating him too; the much simpler explanation is that Federer isn't quite as good as he was. And if you would only take off your blinkers & admit this obvious fact, we'd basically be in agreement.

P.S. Remove ONE guy & Fed has a calendar slam in 2006 & 7, almost certainly.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:36 PM   #561
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophocles View Post
No, the "dip in form" goes on because Federer, in common with every great sportsman & practically every Open Era tennis great from age 26, is declining with age, as evidenced by his record of losses against players other than Nadal & Djoker. Nadal has been beating Fed since 2004 so I hardly think it is the rather weird, vague, intangible insipiration of his victories that has enabled others to start beating him too; the much simpler explanation is that Federer isn't quite as good as he was. And if you would only take off your blinkers & admit this obvious fact, we'd basically be in agreement.

P.S. Remove ONE guy & Fed has a calendar slam in 2006 & 7, almost certainly.
I don't see any evidence that 26 is a decline year for modern tennis.

One notices now a higher and higher peak age and we see fewer teens in the top ranks as well people like Ferrer enjoying his best career period, Fish entering the top 10 with better fitness last year etc.

Nadal was beating Federer early on but he wasn't beating him in the same way across all surfaces and could be described as more of a clay anomaly who in Safin's words ran "like a rabbit". In 2008 he and Djokovic along with Murray to lesser extent became more credible rivals across the board.

You're right that in 2006 and 2007 Federer had a calendar slam most likely without Nadal; the only thing that changed in 2008 is that we could now add Djokovic to the mix and Nadal continued his obvious improvement off of clay and came into his own a bit more as well.

Add a few losses to players who were all better than Canas in some regards and who should have won at least once or twice anyway and the possible psychological let down from Federer and I see nothing out of the ordinary.

Even if we feel that Federer declined slightly in 2008 (and there is no way to independently test this as his benchmarks i.e. Nadal and Djokovic are shifting too) clearly he was merely 26 playing a game well suited to longevity at an age when most greats were winning slams and in their primes.
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:55 PM   #562
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Sampras still thought he was playing his best tennis in 2001. A year Barry Cowan(!) almost knocked him out of Wimbledon.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:10 PM   #563
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

fat washed up roddick, davy, ljubicic AND 19 yr old choker djoker were federer rivals in 2006. in 2007, nadal was a late bloomer and was physically weaker like djoker. emotional djoker needed time to build his strength
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:36 PM   #564
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
Add a few losses to players who were all better than Canas in some regards and who should have won at least once or twice anyway and the possible psychological let down from Federer and I see nothing out of the ordinary.
It was the first time Karlovic had beaten Federer. It was the first time Mardy Fish had beaten Federer. It was the first time James Blake had beaten Federer. It was the second time Stepanek and Roddick had beaten Federer (with their only previous victories coming in 2002 and 2003 respectively).

When Federer loses to five players who he had no trouble beating before (30-0 record against them since 2004), in a single year I guess the only conclusion is they all magically raised their games to stratospheric heights.
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:41 PM   #565
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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Sampras still thought he was playing his best tennis in 2001. A year Barry Cowan(!) almost knocked him out of Wimbledon.
I remember that match it went 5 sets LOL
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Old 05-24-2012, 05:55 PM   #566
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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It was the first time Karlovic had beaten Federer. It was the first time Mardy Fish had beaten Federer. It was the first time James Blake had beaten Federer. It was the second time Stepanek and Roddick had beaten Federer (with their only previous victories coming in 2002 and 2003 respectively).

When Federer loses to five players who he had no trouble beating before (30-0 record against them since 2004), in a single year I guess the only conclusion is they all magically raised their games to stratospheric heights.
Let's be clear: you think a player's prime is over at 26. You don't think Nadal and Djokovic as adults are tougher competition than any Federer faced prior to that. You don't think Federer should ever lose to one of the best servers of all time or to any other top 10 players ever.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:05 PM   #567
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Point #1 Depends on how you want to define prime. Certainly I think there is a gradual deterioration in ability, visible from around 26 onwards, which corresponds to the physical and psychological dimensions of the ageing process.

Point #2 Undecided. It's quite hard to compare different players' levels over different eras.

Point #3 Seems like an obvious strawman of my position.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:06 PM   #568
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalfusion View Post
I replied to this in another post but I will have one last go at it.

Federer doing worse against Nadal and Djokovic at 26 (very much in his physical prime) is not inconsistent with them playing better than they had which is normal considering that they were coming INTO their primes.

Federer wasn't simply outlasted at Wimbledon and that is a very disingenuous way of putting it. He was beaten by the next best grass player coming into his own who nearly did it the year before as well and it can easily be read as more evidence of what I am getting at here.

A few other losses from very good players mostly with great serves who should occasionally find form and SHOULD beat Federer once or twice especially as his aura is chipped away at by Nadal and Djokovic is natural.


So, my main point and the only reason I discussed any of this was to say that the field is stiffer today than it was in the past if we look at the top 3 guys. Both Nadal (especially) but also Djokovic have what it takes to give Federer real matches consistently and occasionally beat him solidly in ways that Nalbandian and Safin could not.

I am also saying that in terms of playing ability if we look at some of those 2nd tier guys who can't break through like Tsonga, Soderling, Del Po to some extent, they perhaps have developed mental hang ups as a result of prolonged periods of domination by these 3 guys which is something that we really see from Fed's reign onward.
Don't bother man, these fedtards will never accept that Federer has got two rivals that can play tete a tete with him in his best form, past or present. Listening to them you'd think Federer has always been invincible.

Good points though.
Nalbandian and Safin were never be the players that Djokovic and Nadal are. To state the opposite is
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:09 PM   #569
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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Listening to them you'd think Federer has always been invincible.
As opposed to those that believe that Federer can beat the ageing process.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:12 PM   #570
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Default Re: Sampras: "I don't see any decline in Federer" Do you agree?

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Don't bother man, these fedtards will never accept that Federer has got two rivals that can play tete a tete with him in his best form, past or present. Listening to them you'd think Federer has always been invincible.

Good points though.
Nalbandian and Safin were never be the players that Djokovic and Nadal are. To state the opposite is
You are getting more and more ridiculous with each of your posts. I hope Novak loses just to see what retarded excuse you'll come up with next.

As for Fed 2008, he was 27, not 26, and he had mono. It's not just his age. Not to mention he'd won so many majors in the years before. I also love how RN was never a true rival before 2008 .
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