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Old 03-01-2008, 02:50 PM   #61
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Oh come on. Please read back through this thread. YOU have brought up poor countries before me all the time.
...which is why you criticized me in the first place and i stopped. and now you're going against your own rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
How do you know where the money is going?
oh, ok, so you really believe it's stashed away in a safe haven to give it to the poor?
even my little brother isn't that naive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
And even if you did, who are you to question how they spend it? Yes I also hate it when "rich people" just stash a load of money in a bank account somewhere and just save it for themselves (and their immediate family) but that's their choice and I still believe no government is any better at spending money than a "greedy rich person".
of course it's their choice which is why i don't plan to torture them for doing it. it just underlines my point that those guys apparently need to have RULES that guide them as pure morals obviously DON'T. even if you filter money through government there are tons left that trickle through to the actual people in need, in contrast to your system, where you wouldn't even know if there's money attached to social welfare in the first plave as most should be given out voluntarily (if i understand you correctly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
When they invest their money into a new business somewhere they're creating something useful to the community. They create jobs and a product for its customers. The money is doing what it's suppose to do, flows from people who want something to people who've earned it. A government reverses that process by taking that money away from the people who earned it and spreading it to people who didn't earn it.
That's the big flaw in socialism and turns people from givers into receivers.
we've been there. this is the equality issue, i'm not gonna go into details again. you think people should be completely taking care for themselves, i say many simply can't and you'll have to set prioirities. fair enough, we have a difference of opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnik
Indeed, and it's much easier to do that by giving people the freedom to go out and earn their way. To just give people free wealth sounds wonderful but where is the wealth coming from? Somebody has to produce it in the first place.
"wealth"? i'm talking about basic needs, help for housing, food stamps and those kind of things. you make it sound like i wanna spoil them. it's about taking care for the lowest 5%, not enriching the middle class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnik
The point is about spreading wealth from the rich to the poor simply because the rich wouldn't suffer if you did and the poor would suffer if you didn't. You think that "rich people" should be forced to pay simply because they can. It works in theory but not in practise.
hm? actually, that's the system you're currently living in, buddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnik
And btw, I think you're being a bit of a hypocrite. You were the one who started bringing up politics outside the Western World and then when I do the same you criticize me. First you criticize me for bringing up only one example (Bill Gates) to defend rich people and then you bring up only one example yourself (Sweden) to defend your state run services.
but don't you see the difference? bill gates is a person whereas countries are whole societies and entities. sweden shows that something obviously works well in that system while bill gates is just a sum of what influenced him during his life. he's one tiny person. and your example is about giving money away voluntarily while my example is about making an economy work. implementing a system on a country is something completely different than donating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnik
Firstly, if everytime I make a point you expect me to give not just one but tons of examples then you will have to wait two months for my response so I can conduct research to find you all the examples I need. I just brought up the richest man in the world. Can you think of a more appropriate example? Did you really expect me to got through the FT Rich List and analyze what every rich person has done with their fortunes?
actually i didn't even expect you to bring up this donation-thing in the first place as i find it stupid und unreal. it doesn't solve anything in the long run apart from salving the billionaire's conscience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
Secondly, if you want to go down the road of analyzing 3rd World countries I'll happily join you but there's no way you can compare them to the developed world. Don't bring up Chile as your example of how shit the free market is and then bring up Sweden to prove that state run economies are so much better. Especially if you criticize me for giving you just one name.
chile's almost like spain, so it's not that far out to take a look at it. i'm not considering nigeria or turkmenistan to be an example.

and i'm not bringing up sweden to "to prove that state run economies are so much better", i'm bringing it up to prove how much better they can be, because you're making it sound as if all the social democrats fuzz leads inevitably to disaster. sure, chile's in no way comparable to let's say germany, but remember how i got there:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
You're assuming that if the state never intervened people would be free to make tons of money for themselves while others would be left out in the cold.
that sentence made me come up with the chile reference as chile has been one of the first countries where they experimented with an economy without any major state interference. it was hardcore back then, nowhere near the american "liberal" economy. even now america's pretty much a controlled economy. chile was their testing range in the 70s and it turned out to be pretty ruff.
this is why chile came to mind.

oh, and since you go on about the "one name"-thing: the times where your liberal system failed to deliver the basic needs to whole societies outnumbers my social democratic system easily, so better don't get me listing the countries. i would start with latin america and end in southeast asia. the only country within the developing nations even trying to implement some sort of social net is uruguay, with alright results. it gets cut ruffly now, though, as ordered by the imf and world bank authorities.
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:48 PM   #62
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
In the UK the Conservatives and Labour don't have many disagreements these days because the former has become more "left wing" and the latter more "right wing" so they're almost joined at the centre. Northern Rock was nationalized but received heavy criticism from many poeple. They discus the possible recession and how they can help business to prosper under difficult circumstances. They discuss green technologies, getting rid of all the coal, oil and gas and replacing it with Wind Farms, Hydro-Electric, Tidal Power and Nuclear Power. They discuss tons of things but they don't have the same narrow minded attitude that most Germans have when it comes to political decisions.

For instance this issue over Power. It seems like Die Grünen would rather kiss Putin's ass and get more oil and gas than set-up Coal and Nuclear Power Plants here in Germany. Now while I can understand the problem with Coal Power I have never understood opposition to Nuclear Power. If they're so worried about carbon emission, this is a perfect short-term solution and I find it especially ironic that they import a lot of energy from France which has more Nuclear Power than any country in the world.

Btw, these types of issues were what I originally wanted to discuss when I opened this thread, not Chilean politics.
ok, based on what you just wrote - so let's do it:

i don't like nuclear plants because 1) you can't deposit the waste properly (i don't know what "endlagerung" is in english), 2) chernobyl, 3) given the actual cost of implementing, securing, administering and actually operating a nuclear plant, it doesn't make enough economic sense compared to the risks.

now: of course it is weird to be against it but import energy from france or russia, i'm with you on that issue. i think what the greens try to do is lay emphasis on research and development. and i guess they'd have some sort of program to work on if they'd rule. the green stuff is their niche, so they keep it in their program. i think they are developing into a common sense party though - at leats i hope so. the resignation of guys like oswald metzger should be alarming to the extreme left freaks.

but again: i'm pretty much with you on this particular issue, although i again have to ask - are you really fluent enough to understand these complex and convoluted political debates in german? i mean, millions of native speakers don't even get what stuff like this is completely about, so if you do, hats off.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
I mean, lets face it, no country in the world is completely free from Unions and Strikes, maybe with the exception of the UAE and the small tax havens. Like I said (many times) politics annoys me in EVERY COUNTRY. I'm not trying to single out Germany as the only country with problems because that's just nonsensical. I'm just saying they annoy me a little more here than in other Western countries.
that sounds different to your initial statements.

but since we're at it, let me get to another core point of german politics. what do you make of the afghanistan mission and the people's opinion regarding our involvement in certain "crisis zones"?
if you wanna keep it strictly domestic - would you have been in favor of the ideas roland koch proposed concerning delinquent youth and punishment for certain crimes?

and would you keep the dreigliedrige schulsystem in place or scrap it and implement something else?
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:52 PM   #63
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
...which is why you criticized me in the first place and i stopped. and now you're going against your own rules?
I just said that poverty is a loose term and I wouldn't describe any American as living in "poverty". I had to bring up a poor region to make this point.

Quote:
oh, ok, so you really believe it's stashed away in a safe haven to give it to the poor?
even my little brother isn't that naive.
Give me a break. You'd make a very good politician with all this cynicism about "rich people's" generosity but it's not a proper response to my point. I said that they do have the freedom to donate and they probably would without governments taking most of it away. Ask any person if they'd rather give half their money to the government or to charity, which do you think they'd choose?

My point is that "rich people" are less greedy than socialists would have you believe. Stop twisting my words.

Quote:
of course it's their choice which is why i don't plan to torture them for doing it. it just underlines my point that those guys apparently need to have RULES that guide them as pure morals obviously DON'T. even if you filter money through government there are tons left that trickle through to the actual people in need, in contrast to your system, where you wouldn't even know if there's money attached to social welfare in the first plave as most should be given out voluntarily (if i understand you correctly).
Now there's a couple points I'd like to make.

Firstly, which would produce a more effective result: $1billion tax money or $1billion charity money?

Secondly, who do you think would know more about running, say, a hospital: a politician who was appointed minister of health or a businessman who created his own chain of hospitals?

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we've been there. this is the equality issue, i'm not gonna go into details again. you think people should be completely taking care for themselves, i say many simply can't and you'll have to set prioirities. fair enough, we have a difference of opinion.
I wouldn't say COMPLETELY but MOSTLY. Certainly much more than they're doing right now. Even I'm not quite as extreme as that.

Quote:
"wealth"? i'm talking about basic needs, help for housing, food stamps and those kind of things. you make it sound like i wanna spoil them. it's about taking care for the lowest 5%, not enriching the middle class.
That's what I'm talking about too. Maybe I shouldn't label it "wealth" but where should the money come from for these "basic needs"? Somebody needs to have produced it in the first place for it to be taken away from them and distributed to your "lowest 5%".

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hm? actually, that's the system you're currently living in, buddy.
Yes but not without its consequences, which is what I was discussing at the start of this thread.

Quote:
but don't you see the difference? bill gates is a person whereas countries are whole societies and entities. sweden shows that something obviously works well in that system while bill gates is just a sum of what influenced him during his life. he's one tiny person. and your example is about giving money away voluntarily while my example is about making an economy work. implementing a system on a country is something completely different than donating.
"bill gates is just a sum of what influenced him during his life" - wrong, and this is a very important point. He's his own man, a smart guy who had a great idea and had the guts to go out into the world and implement it. Nobody ever gave these important characteristics to him.

Quote:
actually i didn't even expect you to bring up this donation-thing in the first place as i find it stupid und unreal. it doesn't solve anything in the long run apart from salving the billionaire's conscience.
What do you expect from me? This was suppose to be about politics in the Western World. Should I start comparing Japan to North Korea to make my points? You can bring up whatever you like and I can't?

Quote:
chile's almost like spain, so it's not that far out to take a look at it. i'm not considering nigeria or turkmenistan to be an example.
"chile's almost like spain" - I'm sorry but that is the most ridiculous statement you've made. They speak the same language, that's just about the only similarity I can think of. What if I said South Africa is almost like Britain, would you agree?

Quote:
and i'm not bringing up sweden to "to prove that state run economies are so much better", i'm bringing it up to prove how much better they can be, because you're making it sound as if all the social democrats fuzz leads inevitably to disaster. sure, chile's in no way comparable to let's say germany, but remember how i got there:
You're missing the point. If you want to continue this discussion you need to be fair. I know perfectly well why you brought up Sweden and Chile and why you say that Bill Gates is only one example. Bringing up Sweden is reasonable but then bringing up Chile is totally out of line with the discussion. Especially when you criticize me for bringing up poverty in Asia and Africa.

Quote:
that sentence made me come up with the chile reference as chile has been one of the first countries where they experimented with an economy without any major state interference. it was hardcore back then, nowhere near the american "liberal" economy. even now america's pretty much a controlled economy. chile was their testing range in the 70s and it turned out to be pretty ruff.
this is why chile came to mind.
I'm not going to argue with you over Chile until I've seen all the facts but I find it hard to believe that they had in the 70s what I would call a free market economy.

Quote:
oh, and since you go on about the "one name"-thing: the times where your liberal system failed to deliver the basic needs to whole societies outnumbers my social democratic system easily, so better don't get me listing the countries. i would start with latin america and end in southeast asia. the only country within the developing nations even trying to implement some sort of social net is uruguay, with alright results. it gets cut ruffly now, though, as ordered by the imf and world bank authorities.
"Failed to deliver basic needs to whole societies" - yet another politician's phrase. You haven't actually said anything specific. "Basic needs" can be a matter of opinion and "whole societies" can mean that if 99% are living in prosperity the system is still a disaster.

Would you call America a failed liberal system?
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:00 PM   #64
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

this is going nowhere (and i can't be bothered to type for 15 minutes just to get a posting done, to be honest, as fun as it may have seemed in the beginning). let's focus on the points you raised concerning the actual politics. i put some more on the map so we can get back on topic.
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:31 PM   #65
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post

I'm not going to argue with you over Chile until I've seen all the facts but I find it hard to believe that they had in the 70s what I would call a free market economy.


"
rrainer is 100% right , reforms in Chile were inspired by Milton Friedman , who according to his doctrine, the US economy would be considered communist
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Old 03-02-2008, 02:17 AM   #66
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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@ buddyholly

btw we're talking about germany here and yes, i do think the swedish model could be copied here without any major problems. we're not honduras, you know?
You would need to inject a lot more crapulence, decadence and joie de vivre into your daily life before I would confuse you with Honduras.
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:42 AM   #67
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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You would need to inject a lot more crapulence, decadence and joie de vivre into your daily life before I would confuse you with Honduras.
good counterpunch, i must say.
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:02 PM   #68
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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ok, based on what you just wrote - so let's do it:

i don't like nuclear plants because 1) you can't deposit the waste properly (i don't know what "endlagerung" is in english), 2) chernobyl, 3) given the actual cost of implementing, securing, administering and actually operating a nuclear plant, it doesn't make enough economic sense compared to the risks.
1) Of course this is also an issue in the UK but this really has been exaggerated as a problem. The latest generation of Nuclear Plants produce very little waste at all, especially following reprocessing.
2) Of course this incident put a big black mark on the reputation of Nuclear Power, which is a real shame. It's not really fair because under the Sovet Union many shortcuts and poor management decisions were taken. And again the latest generation of Nuclear Plants are far safer than ever before, carrying such a dillute level of radioactive substance that it's technically impossible to have an explosion.
3) The issue of cost is the only one I agree with and indeed it would make much more financial sense to open up a Coal Plant. But if you're really interested in lowering carbon emission and you don't want to rely on Russia and the Middle East for your energy, what are your alternatives?

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now: of course it is weird to be against it but import energy from france or russia, i'm with you on that issue. i think what the greens try to do is lay emphasis on research and development. and i guess they'd have some sort of program to work on if they'd rule. the green stuff is their niche, so they keep it in their program. i think they are developing into a common sense party though - at leats i hope so. the resignation of guys like oswald metzger should be alarming to the extreme left freaks.
Indeed, the problem I have with "greenies" (and this applies to the UK too) is that they think they can save the planet but in many cases they don't know what they're doing. This is why politicians can't be trusted to make decisions, even when it comes to the environment. People don't pay enough attention to the experts, the engineers and scientists, in these cases.

Quote:
but again: i'm pretty much with you on this particular issue, although i again have to ask - are you really fluent enough to understand these complex and convoluted political debates in german? i mean, millions of native speakers don't even get what stuff like this is completely about, so if you do, hats off.
I don't understand everything but I get the jist of it. The issue of power is particuarly interesting to me because I'm an engineering student and I've had many lectures on "sustainable engineering", the future and the environment.

Quote:
that sounds different to your initial statements.

but since we're at it, let me get to another core point of german politics. what do you make of the afghanistan mission and the people's opinion regarding our involvement in certain "crisis zones"?
if you wanna keep it strictly domestic - would you have been in favor of the ideas roland koch proposed concerning delinquent youth and punishment for certain crimes?

and would you keep the dreigliedrige schulsystem in place or scrap it and implement something else?
Germany should be helping out in Afghanistan IMO. I would like to see them work side-by-side with their Western allies for a change.

I'm not totally sure about that 2nd issue but I did hear a proposal that tax evaders should be given 15 years in prison. I mean basically you're up there with the rapists and pedophiles when you evade taxes in this country.

I didn't go to school in this country but is this "dreigliedrige schulsystem" the equivalent of primary, secondary and high school in the UK?
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:10 PM   #69
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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rrainer is 100% right , reforms in Chile were inspired by Milton Friedman , who according to his doctrine, the US economy would be considered communist
I'm not expert on Chile but from what I've been reading the economy was booming in the late 80s towards the end of Pinochet's reign. They suffered greatly during the world recession in the early 80s but I think it's harsh to blame it on the regime.

Btw, I'm not a Pinochet fan. I'm not going to even consider defending him on the issues of human rights.
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Old 03-02-2008, 03:36 PM   #70
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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They suffered greatly during the world recession in the early 80s but I think it's harsh to blame it on the regime.
but denying the responsability of the regime in the collapse is laughable . you seem very dogmatic. Thinking that "free unregulated market can do no wrong" is pure ideology
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Old 03-02-2008, 06:30 PM   #71
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but denying the responsability of the regime in the collapse is laughable . you seem very dogmatic. Thinking that "free unregulated market can do no wrong" is pure ideology
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said "free unregulated market can do no wrong".

Clearly you're a big fan of state control but you have yet to prove that it is better than the free market, even in Chile.
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:56 PM   #72
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

I'm a fan of nothing , just an observer. Also i did not talk about "state control"
I just wanted to point out that an unregulated market leads to market tyranny.
And that market sometimes need state regulation. Keynes advocated economic interventionism, and he was very far from being a communist.
British govt is trying to save the Northern Rock bank , the USA are tying to protect themselves against chinese exportations , doesn't mean that their economies are "state controlled"
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Old 03-02-2008, 08:02 PM   #73
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

I didn't call you a communist, I just said you like state control. Maybe not 100% state control but at least 40-50% to keep everything in order, right?

Do I take it then that you agree with the British government's decision to nationalize Northen Rock?
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Old 03-02-2008, 08:38 PM   #74
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

if it can save customers money and savings , why not
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:57 PM   #75
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

What about the other banks that didn't go bankrupt because they made more sensible decisions. They have to compete now against a bank insured by the state - it's unfair competition. Should they suffer because of Northen Rock's incompetence? It puts a serious dent in Britain's reputation as an open financial centre.
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