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Old 03-01-2008, 04:29 AM   #46
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by G4. View Post
i thought Argentina economy collapsed in 2002 , i must have dreamed. If Argentina is relatively "prosperous", i doubt it is a result of ultra liberal reforms
(would love to have an opinion of an Argentinian on this )
I was also surprised that Argentina was #1 in GDP, followed by Chile. So to ensure that the few at the top were not taking all the product, I checked purchasing power. It is now Chile #1 and Argentina #2 in South America, so I guess Argentina has recovered well.

The difference between Argentinians and Chileans in purchases is that Argentinians like to eat well and Chileans like to dress well.
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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These countries have been ''devastated.............''

I guess it is just a co-incidence then that these two devastated countries are #1 and #2 in GNP for South American countries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How would you describe the ones that are not among the privileged devastated ones?
i was talking about chile under pinochet, when poverty rates went up as high as 50% (!) due to privatization, massive cuts in welfare, layoffs, cuts in subsidies and a complete sell-out of state property. once pinochet was done, rates went down to close to 20% due to reforms initiated by social democrats. the number of milionaires didn't continue to skyrocket then, sorry about that.

and argentina has been crushed time and time again even though the oecd still lists it a a first world country. if it wasn't for ultraliberal policies regarding the capital market, chile and argentina wouldn't be 1 and 2 in south america, they'd even have quite a solid head-to-head with western europe, given that their workforce is just little behind us when it comes to education etc. there's a reason why most economics experts were betting on south america to rise faster after ww2 than europe - they had the same idea.
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:18 PM   #48
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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You're comparing fascist Pinochet to the free Western World? Now you're talking like a true communist. There's no point in replying to this seriously.
i'm comparing the economy, not his overall behaviour. his policies regarding the capital market were more laissez-faire than america's policies today (which was hardly a surprise back then since america backed him up big time). so please stick to the facts.

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Well again I don't agree. Intelligence is important but determination even more so. Parents, teachers etc.. they can all influence a child but, at the end of the day, it has to come from within the child himself. There have been shitloads of cases of poor Asians and South Americans who were born into poverty but made it to the Western World and created fortunes of their own.
there were more shitloads of poor asians and south americans who were born into poverty that simply ended where they started: in poverty, be it in their home country or elsewhere. you can never rule some geniusses out, but most of them stay where they are.
but anyways, i don't think we're going anywhere here. let'sl eave out this particular argument. this is not gonna be a point where we can agree.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
There are no Americans living in what I would call "poverty". At worst they're living on the streets in New York demanding change from all the passers-by. These are not people who are suffering, or denied opportunities, on the same level as most Africans or Asians in this world. How much of Bill Gates' fortune has he kept for his own personal needs and the needs of his family? Less than 1%. He's semi-retired now and working full-time on his non-profit projects. How much more do you want?
1) i thought we were talking about the western world, so why bring the african kind of poverty into this?

2) if you bring bill gates into this, i'll just counterpunch with zumwinkel. and now we're even?
see, dropping names doesn't mean anything. according to the oecd, about 35% of the world's wealth is hidden in tax havens. so where's that money going? to foundations for the third world? were those people hiding it from the bad federal tax system just to spend it lavishly in africa and bangladesh? don't you think that's rather people's money who just wanted to keep it for themselves?

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
Again, it depends on what you see as the "solution". If the objective is to get every man, woman and child off the streets and into a home with plenty of food, free education and free healthcare then no this will never be achieved no matter what political system you live under. It's a fact of the real world and most people haven't learned to accept it.
the goal is to let as many people as possible join the world's wealth. that's all i'm saying.

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I do believe that my free world is much closer to being a "solution" than your state control.
sweden for example proves you wrong. highly productive, innovations through the roof, great services offered by the state and almost hardly anyone is left out.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
I know that's the typical socialist mentallity. What if one billionaire's wealth was spread across a thousand homeless people. All of them would be millionaires and the problem would be solved. Right? Or, if we want to be more realistic, what if half his wealth was spread across the same people, all of them would still be very well off and could afford just the basic needs that they deserve as human beings. Right?

Wrong. Imagination is a wonderful thing and it can run away to solve many problems in an ideal world at any time, but it never solves any problems in the real world.
what's that got to do with what i try to point out since 3 postings?

once again, to make it bluntly: in my mind, the top few can come to terms with being bullied a little while the bottom few would have massive problems if the top few can do whatever they want. so in order to help the bottom few, the top few will have to be "provoked" a bit (though i wouldn't feel that way if i was one of them).
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Old 03-01-2008, 12:56 PM   #49
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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sweden for example proves you wrong. highly productive, innovations through the roof, great services offered by the state and almost hardly anyone is left out.


You can't just pick one country and say that proves anything. Would one country, say North Korea, prove you wrong? Of course not! If it was suggested that North Korea proves that the state always does the worst job of running the economy you would cry ""FOUL.'' So why do you try to prove your case by singling out Sweden?
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Old 03-01-2008, 01:05 PM   #50
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

i don't get that, sorry. why can't i mention sweden as a perfect example of the way i think certain things should be handled? scandinavian countries quite obviously prove the possiblity of having almost everyone covered when it comes to a social net and in the same time producing even billionaires, tons of inventors and lots of highly-educated business leaders.
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Old 03-01-2008, 01:22 PM   #51
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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i don't get that, sorry. why can't i mention sweden as a perfect example of the way i think certain things should be handled? scandinavian countries quite obviously prove the possiblity of having almost everyone covered when it comes to a social net and in the same time producing even billionaires, tons of inventors and lots of highly-educated business leaders.
Don't want to drag this out. However you do emphasize the possibility - ie, in theory. In practice, not many countries in the world are in a position to emulate Sweden.
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Old 03-01-2008, 01:28 PM   #52
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Don't want to drag this out. However you do emphasize the possibility - ie, in theory. In practice, not many countries in the world are in a position to emulate Sweden.
oh, ok, that's what you mean. yeah, you might be right about that. but taking the other direction is basically just the easiest way out. simply cutting welfare, privatizing etc. is something everyone can do. to me it seems rather difficult to copy sweden, but it's definitely worth a shot, given how well things have worked out up there over the last decades. and if you take a look at the countries who've gone jimnik's path - well, the results are pretty mixed, to put it mildly. the anglo-saxon world has done alright so far, but almost every other country has had major problems with the implemented systems (and i'm not only talking about the iron curtain countries where the so-called "shock-therapy" created lopsided societies).
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Old 03-01-2008, 01:37 PM   #53
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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oh, ok, that's what you mean. yeah, you might be right about that.
Finding a way to say that the Swedes as a ''people'' may be different from most other ''people'' without being accused of racism etc., is difficult. But I can just not see that the government of Honduras, for example (any party), could collect a lot of taxes and then see that these are fairly redistributed among the population.
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Old 03-01-2008, 01:54 PM   #54
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Those are the international issues, I'm talking about domestic politics.
so what is en vogue in britain these days?

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I haven't seen one bash from you yet.
you're doing the job.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
Rubbish. There are loads of powerful union leaders in the UK and they usually get what they want. The most annoying one is the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers) especially the London Underground Drivers who went on strike over "safety concerns" and yet they demanded more money as if their own low salaries were the cause of the "unsafe" system (only a lazy left-wing Brit would understand this kind of logic). The London Undergound station staff also went on strike demanding "a more fair pay package" (at least they were honest). Then there's the Fire Fighters Union who also wanted more money. The Teachers' Union, The Postal Strike, Air Traffic Control Strike and even the baggage staff at Heathrow threatened to go on strike (I don't think they did). The list goes on and on and on.....
In almost every case the unions get what they want, or at the very least they reach a compromise.
i'm not sure but that sure sounds suspicious. seems to me like today's unions resemble more with transnet than with the gdl (you know what i mean, right?).

anyways, you probably have a point there. i stand corrected on the union thing, at least member-wise (just googled the number of participants). unfortunately i don't know enough about their actual power in britain's politics so i won't be able to challenge you on this issue.
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:01 PM   #55
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Finding a way to say that the Swedes as a ''people'' may be different from most other ''people'' without being accused of racism etc., is difficult. But I can just not see that the government of Honduras, for example (any party), could collect a lot of taxes and then see that these are fairly redistributed among the population.
i think it boils down to tradition and the passing on of the torch, to some extent. if your dad tells you that there are hardly any non-corrupt state officials, you're probably gonna believe it and pass it on to the next generation. the swedes have always trusted their governments when it comes to collecting taxes etc., so i guess there's no need to "warn" the next generation about the shortcomings of the state. on the other hand there are tons of other influences that have an impact on the actual mentality of people, ranging from climate (hardly any country with mediterranean weather is able to maintain a standard of living close to the "cooler countries") to heritage (calvinistic brits and duetous prussians have always excelled in asceticism and stern discipline while latin people tended to be known for crapulence, decadence and "joie de vivre"). that's worth a whole new thread.
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:09 PM   #56
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

@ buddyholly

btw we're talking about germany here and yes, i do think the swedish model could be copied here without any major problems. we're not honduras, you know?
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:18 PM   #57
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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i'm comparing the economy, not his overall behaviour. his policies regarding the capital market were more laissez-faire than america's policies today (which was hardly a surprise back then since america backed him up big time). so please stick to the facts.
While I've said many times that I'm comparing politics in the Western World I'll still hapily debate you on Chile. I admit I'm no expert on Pinochet and his regime but you've got me interested and I'll happily read up about it and get back to you later.

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there were more shitloads of poor asians and south americans who were born into poverty that simply ended where they started: in poverty, be it in their home country or elsewhere. you can never rule some geniusses out, but most of them stay where they are.
but anyways, i don't think we're going anywhere here. let'sl eave out this particular argument. this is not gonna be a point where we can agree.
Indeed.

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1) i thought we were talking about the western world, so why bring the african kind of poverty into this?
Oh come on. Please read back through this thread. YOU have brought up poor countries before me all the time.

Quote:
2) if you bring bill gates into this, i'll just counterpunch with zumwinkel. and now we're even?
see, dropping names doesn't mean anything. according to the oecd, about 35% of the world's wealth is hidden in tax havens. so where's that money going? to foundations for the third world? were those people hiding it from the bad federal tax system just to spend it lavishly in africa and bangladesh? don't you think that's rather people's money who just wanted to keep it for themselves?
How do you know where the money is going? And even if you did, who are you to question how they spend it? Yes I also hate it when "rich people" just stash a load of money in a bank account somewhere and just save it for themselves (and their immediate family) but that's their choice and I still believe no government is any better at spending money than a "greedy rich person". When they invest their money into a new business somewhere they're creating something useful to the community. They create jobs and a product for its customers. The money is doing what it's suppose to do, flows from people who want something to people who've earned it. A government reverses that process by taking that money away from the people who earned it and spreading it to people who didn't earn it. That's the big flaw in socialism and turns people from givers into receivers.

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the goal is to let as many people as possible join the world's wealth. that's all i'm saying.
Indeed, and it's much easier to do that by giving people the freedom to go out and earn their way. To just give people free wealth sounds wonderful but where is the wealth coming from? Somebody has to produce it in the first place.

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sweden for example proves you wrong. highly productive, innovations through the roof, great services offered by the state and almost hardly anyone is left out.
Wonderful. Sounds like paradise on earth (see below).

Quote:
what's that got to do with what i try to point out since 3 postings?

once again, to make it bluntly: in my mind, the top few can come to terms with being bullied a little while the bottom few would have massive problems if the top few can do whatever they want. so in order to help the bottom few, the top few will have to be "provoked" a bit (though i wouldn't feel that way if i was one of them).
The point is about spreading wealth from the rich to the poor simply because the rich wouldn't suffer if you did and the poor would suffer if you didn't. You think that "rich people" should be forced to pay simply because they can. It works in theory but not in practise.

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And btw, I think you're being a bit of a hypocrite. You were the one who started bringing up politics outside the Western World and then when I do the same you criticize me. First you criticize me for bringing up only one example (Bill Gates) to defend rich people and then you bring up only one example yourself (Sweden) to defend your state run services.

Firstly, if everytime I make a point you expect me to give not just one but tons of examples then you will have to wait two months for my response so I can conduct research to find you all the examples I need. I just brought up the richest man in the world. Can you think of a more appropriate example? Did you really expect me to got through the FT Rich List and analyze what every rich person has done with their fortunes?

Secondly, if you want to go down the road of analyzing 3rd World countries I'll happily join you but there's no way you can compare them to the developed world. Don't bring up Chile as your example of how shit the free market is and then bring up Sweden to prove that state run economies are so much better. Especially if you criticize me for giving you just one name.
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:27 PM   #58
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

ok, it's bundesliga-time now. i'll come back to that later, but let me just give you one chance to prove your point: where in the world has your system created nothing but good? my system's competitor is sweden.

you go.
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:41 PM   #59
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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so what is en vogue in britain these days?
In the UK the Conservatives and Labour don't have many disagreements these days because the former has become more "left wing" and the latter more "right wing" so they're almost joined at the centre. Northern Rock was nationalized but received heavy criticism from many poeple. They discus the possible recession and how they can help business to prosper under difficult circumstances. They discuss green technologies, getting rid of all the coal, oil and gas and replacing it with Wind Farms, Hydro-Electric, Tidal Power and Nuclear Power. They discuss tons of things but they don't have the same narrow minded attitude that most Germans have when it comes to political decisions.

For instance this issue over Power. It seems like Die Grünen would rather kiss Putin's ass and get more oil and gas than set-up Coal and Nuclear Power Plants here in Germany. Now while I can understand the problem with Coal Power I have never understood opposition to Nuclear Power. If they're so worried about carbon emission, this is a perfect short-term solution and I find it especially ironic that they import a lot of energy from France which has more Nuclear Power than any country in the world.

Btw, these types of issues were what I originally wanted to discuss when I opened this thread, not Chilean politics.

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i'm not sure but that sure sounds suspicious. seems to me like today's unions resemble more with transnet than with the gdl (you know what i mean, right?).

anyways, you probably have a point there. i stand corrected on the union thing, at least member-wise (just googled the number of participants). unfortunately i don't know enough about their actual power in britain's politics so i won't be able to challenge you on this issue.
I mean, lets face it, no country in the world is completely free from Unions and Strikes, maybe with the exception of the UAE and the small tax havens. Like I said (many times) politics annoys me in EVERY COUNTRY. I'm not trying to single out Germany as the only country with problems because that's just nonsensical. I'm just saying they annoy me a little more here than in other Western countries.
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Old 03-01-2008, 02:49 PM   #60
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
ok, it's bundesliga-time now. i'll come back to that later, but let me just give you one chance to prove your point: where in the world has your system created nothing but good? my system's competitor is sweden.

you go.
"Nothing but good" sounds like a politician's phrase.

I'm not totally sure what you would define as "nothing but good" but if you're asking me which country(ies) are the closest to my system probably Switzerland.
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