2013 Bundestagswahl (German Federal Election): A.Merkel def P.Steinbrück 42% - 26% - Page 3 - MensTennisForums.com

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Old 02-29-2008, 04:26 PM   #31
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
uhm.

come on, you once again know that i wasn't talking about the players, so don't make me look bad on purpose. i'm talking about shinawatra and abramovitch, glazer and hicks and so on.
Do I look like I care that Abramovich is here?

But seriously, that shouldn't bother you either because the billionares are the ones losing out. Every Premiership club, without exception, loses money and especially Chelsea. They're more like toys, they're entertainment value for the owners, not business opportunities.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:30 PM   #32
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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This is exactly where you and I strongly disagree. There's more to life than creating and obeying rules which is a concept totally alien most Germans. It is literally like a nation of robots and when one of them mal-functions they can't be left alone, they have to be corrected or destroyed.
there's a thin line. you're one of the bunch that sees people and sees opportunity, "germans" tend to see people first and foremost as victims. now: if you care about the low-income people, the high-income bunch will probably still be smart enough to do whatever they want to, even within boundaries set up by the state. but the low-income people won't even survive if you don't care about them. so to me, it's more important to care for the least fortunate than to offer the best educated, most intelligent ones and richest of our society the best chances they could possibly have. some great philosopher once said that if you wanna judge mankind, all you have to do is take a look at the weakest ones.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
There are plenty of lame-ass socialist pressure groups in Britain and they drive me crazy too. But the thing about Britain is that socialism isn't there because of the "moral issues" that germany has. It's mostly there because Brits are lazy and they love their doll, free home, free healthcare, free education for the kids. They just can't be assed to work or at least show some initiative and go for something better than a dead-end job at a car factory. Germans are far more hard working than Brits which is why they can cope much better even when the state is working for them. Whereas the Brits and the Irish need a kick up the ass to go to work which is why capitalism is so important. Without it there's just no motivation to do anything and everything comes to a stand-still.
i understand that as an ackowledgement that german politics fit here and british politics fit over there. so we're even.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
Billionares paying for your children's education? Why should he pay? Just because he can, and you can't be assed to go out and support your own child.

You see this is no longer an argument about German politics, more like Capitalism vs Socialism.
what does that have to do with socialism? it's about how a thing called society works. it's fraternité, for heavens sake. what you're describing is charles darwin's survival of the fittest. do we wanna end like brazil?

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Old 02-29-2008, 04:32 PM   #33
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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They're more like toys.
exactly. i'm pretty happy it is not allowed to buy these toys in germany. i don't want some freak-ass criminal to launder his money in my hometown, on my pitch where my effing club plays.

but if you're ok with it, fine with me.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:45 PM   #34
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
ok, this is gonna be long. but anyways, given that you seem to stick to pure debate, it's gonna be interesting.
Bring it on.

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yeah, but it becomes more and more clear that we're not debating politics itself but rather policies. at first glance i thought you'd be going for the circumstances under which we are ruled to some extent, but it's rather you having a different opinion than our chancellor. that's fine with me. but you do realise that kohl was different? schröder was too. hartz 4 was his idea and france, italy, sweden and that lot are far behind us regarding the social structure. and kohl was the elected chancellor for almost 20 years, so the judgement of the german electorate in that particular time must be correct in your mind, right?
and your points regarding "debating the important issues" etc. are subjective views of course, as are mine. no need for us to debate about that, i guess we're just different in setting priorities.
Actually I like Angela Merkel and I'm sure I'd agree with most of her views but I feel she's doing a lot of things she doesn't believe in so she can be in power and stay popular. And I don't have anything against the German electoral system, in fact I prefer it to the UK's election process.

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man, seems like i don't even know you anymore. "germans don't get the big picture"? what kind of a sweeping generalization is that? it's like me saying that brits all have red hair, look pale and pasty and walk around in their trainers all day long. you can do better than that, so cut that crap out.
Indeed I shouldn't generalize.

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and i gotta repeat what i just said: so according to you german "got the big picture" 16 years and then suddenly lost it? then got it again during schröder for some time and then lost it again? then got it back during the landtagswahlen just to lose it at the bundestagswahlen? that just doesn't make sense. as i tried to point out before - germans obviously love it politically balanced. what's so hard to understand about that? all you have to do is check the results over the last 50 years.
Maybe this is a bad patch but I'm not sure I would have preferred the Schröder years. It's not just about who's in power, it's the issues being discussed in debates, the anger I feel from the public, the ideas started by politicians (even if they don't get passed).

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btw i'm on your side when it comes to many things you mention, but i feel like i have to defend "my country", as funny as it may sound, against your reckless bashing. quite obviously the living standard in britain is the same as in germany, so politics over here apparently weren't "wrong" in its actual sense but rather taste different than british politicis. take a look around, the effect is the same, the output's as high as the british output.
You don't need to defend your country from me, I love the lifestyle here and the quality is very high BUT IT'S NOT DUE TO POLITICS. That's the point I'm trying to make. Like I said Germans work much harder than Brits and that's where the greater output comes from.

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it's not just that i "want free healthcare" and so on, but i definitely don't want privatized health care as in the states. so yes, i prefer our system. japan has it, scandinavia has it, france has it and it works, as simple as that.
Britain has it too. Again, this is not the problem I have with German politics, I was just quoting examples of issues to make a point.

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and i'm once again stunned about your indifference regarding morals. in your opinion, what should be done about the tax evasion scandal? just neglect it? confess that "the real world", as you call it, works like that and accept misdemeanor?
Investigate it, of course. I'm sure Brits investigate tax evasions too but we just don't hear about it on the news the same as we do here in Germany. And Brits certainly don't reach the same levels of anger as over here.

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and that's ok. may i ask you about your german skills?
I can speak quite fluently, I can listen very well, I can read alright but I'm shit at writing. I'll do it every now and then but I make so many spelling and grammatic errors.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:00 PM   #35
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
Actually I like Angela Merkel and I'm sure I'd agree with most of her views but I feel she's doing a lot of things she doesn't believe in so she can be in power and stay popular. And I don't have anything against the German electoral system, in fact I prefer it to the UK's election process.

...
Indeed I shouldn't generalize.

...
Maybe this is a bad patch but I'm not sure I would have preferred the Schröder years. It's not just about who's in power, it's the issues being discussed in debates, the anger I feel from the public, the ideas started by politicians (even if they don't get passed).
...
i'm not sure but i'd suppose the issues debated over here don't differ that much from the issues debated around us in europe. what's today's age about? climate change, globalization, keeping the society together, the wars in the middle east including iraq...that's pretty much it, isn't it? i mean, what does britain talk about these days? is it really that different?

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
You don't need to defend your country from me, I love the lifestyle here and the quality is very high BUT IT'S NOT DUE TO POLITICS. That's the point I'm trying to make. Like I said Germans work much harder than Brits and that's where the greater output comes from.
i think i got that attitude from bfbs because where i'm from lots of barracks were build post-ww2: there has been an uproar in the troops community when the bild-zeitung offended the beckhams during summer 06, so tons of mails and calls got in defending them. many of them got it right: it's not about bashing the beckhams, but THEY want to do it, not some foreigners. to some extent they're like kids - criticizing is the parents' job, not some strangers' who pass by. i guess that sort of "spirit" carries me away in this thread. if anyone, i wanna be the one bashing my country.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
...
Investigate it, of course. I'm sure Brits investigate tax evasions too but we just don't hear about it on the news the same as we do here in Germany. And Brits certainly don't reach the same levels of anger as over here.
of course brits are not angry. there's nobody around to stir up the pot, nobody to take the workers' side, nobody to stand up and speak up - all those guys who would have been able to articulate their anger have been crushed in the 80s and 90s. the ones who talk about tax evasion and bring it in the news over here are mostly unionists and leftists. well, how are the unions doing in britain? you tell me. that's what i was referring to earlier: you have no lobby left on the one end of the society, just like america. and in the long run this is probably gonna bite you in the ass.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
I can speak quite fluently, I can listen very well, I can read alright but I'm shit at writing. I'll do it every now and then but I make so many spelling and grammatic errors.
i was just asking because in order to judge about "our" political views you'd have to be pretty fluent. that's ok then.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:14 PM   #36
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Rrrainer View Post
there's a thin line. you're one of the bunch that sees people and sees opportunity, "germans" tend to see people first and foremost as victims. now: if you care about the low-income people, the high-income bunch will probably still be smart enough to do whatever they want to, even within boundaries set up by the state. but the low-income people won't even survive if you don't care about them. so to me, it's more important to care for the least fortunate than to offer the best educated, most intelligent ones and richest of our society the best chances they could possibly have. some great philosopher once said that if you wanna judge mankind, all you have to do is take a look at the weakest ones.
It's not as simple as that. You're assuming that if the state never intervened people would be free to make tons of money for themselves while others would be left out in the cold.

Firstly, you need to get rid of this distinction between "rich people" and "poor people". Every person is born equal, regardless of whether they were born into poverty in Africa or wealth in America. They have the choice to be either hard working or lazy, a leader or a follower, a creator or a destroyer. That is, by far, the most important aspect of any man's life - his choices. If you choose to neglect that and only see a person getting what other people (be it his family or the state) have given them then you don't get the full picture.

Secondly, you seem to have this assumption in your head that "rich people" choose only to make money for themselves and not for any of the so-called "poor people". What is investment? What is a company? Is it just about the person who started it in the first place? Or are there others involved who also benefit?

Thirdly, another assumption is that the only way wealth can be spread from the "rich" to the "poor" is through enforcement. There's no way a rich person can choose through his own free-will to donate (that's right DONATE, not invest) to people who are less fortunate, less willing or less capable.

I think you need to reconsider these assumptions.

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i understand that as an ackowledgement that german politics fit here and british politics fit over there. so we're even.
Freedom fits perfectly ANYWHERE in the world.

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what does that have to do with socialism? it's about how a thing called society works. it's fraternité, for heavens sake. what you're describing is charles darwin's survival of the fittest. do we wanna end like brazil?
It's about the average quality of life (and some "morals" of my own) which improve (and are satisfied) when states are not trying to control every little thing.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:25 PM   #37
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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It's not as simple as that. You're assuming that if the state never intervened people would be free to make tons of money for themselves while others would be left out in the cold.
check out argentina or chile under pinochet. those countries have been devastated by the kind of "freedom" you're trying to defend here. america's going the same path and don't even get me started on eastern europe or russia.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
Firstly, you need to get rid of this distinction between "rich people" and "poor people". Every person is born equal, regardless of whether they were born into poverty in Africa or wealth in America. They have the choice to be either hard working or lazy, a leader or a follower, a creator or a destroyer. That is, by far, the most important aspect of any man's life - his choices. If you choose to neglect that and only see a person getting what other people (be it his family or the state) have given them then you don't get the full picture.
come on. some are more intelligent than others, it depends on the upbringings, the parents' care, how they raise the kids, what teachers bring along to guide him etc. there are people who're great in inventing, others are better in taking orders. the "equality when born" is a myth.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
Secondly, you seem to have this assumption in your head that "rich people" choose only to make money for themselves and not for any of the so-called "poor people". What is investment? What is a company? Is it just about the person who started it in the first place? Or are there others involved who also benefit?
sure there are. i never denied that.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
Thirdly, another assumption is that the only way wealth can be spread from the "rich" to the "poor" is through enforcement. There's no way a rich person can choose through his own free-will to donate (that's right DONATE, not invest) to people who are less fortunate, less willing or less capable.
ok. so you're telling me donating is the key to social security? wow. i'm wondering how rich the 30 million americans living under the poverty line must be if all those billionaires living in the states would donate only a buck a day. fact is: even large amounts of donations in the states can't feed tens of millions properly. imagine how that adds up if donating seized...

that free-will-thing is nowhere near being a solution. it's nice and billionaires can feel good about themselves, but it's marginal.

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Originally Posted by jimnik
It's about the average quality of life (and some "morals" of my own) which improve (and are satisfied) when states are not trying to control every little thing.
as i said: the upper 10thousand can cope with restrictions, but the lowest 10thousand are not able to cope with a world as "free" as you want it to be.
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Old 02-29-2008, 06:53 PM   #38
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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i'm not sure but i'd suppose the issues debated over here don't differ that much from the issues debated around us in europe. what's today's age about? climate change, globalization, keeping the society together, the wars in the middle east including iraq...that's pretty much it, isn't it? i mean, what does britain talk about these days? is it really that different?
Those are the international issues, I'm talking about domestic politics.

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i think i got that attitude from bfbs because where i'm from lots of barracks were build post-ww2: there has been an uproar in the troops community when the bild-zeitung offended the beckhams during summer 06, so tons of mails and calls got in defending them. many of them got it right: it's not about bashing the beckhams, but THEY want to do it, not some foreigners. to some extent they're like kids - criticizing is the parents' job, not some strangers' who pass by. i guess that sort of "spirit" carries me away in this thread. if anyone, i wanna be the one bashing my country.
I haven't seen one bash from you yet.

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of course brits are not angry. there's nobody around to stir up the pot, nobody to take the workers' side, nobody to stand up and speak up - all those guys who would have been able to articulate their anger have been crushed in the 80s and 90s. the ones who talk about tax evasion and bring it in the news over here are mostly unionists and leftists. well, how are the unions doing in britain? you tell me. that's what i was referring to earlier: you have no lobby left on the one end of the society, just like america. and in the long run this is probably gonna bite you in the ass.
Rubbish. There are loads of powerful union leaders in the UK and they usually get what they want. The most annoying one is the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers) especially the London Underground Drivers who went on strike over "safety concerns" and yet they demanded more money as if their own low salaries were the cause of the "unsafe" system (only a lazy left-wing Brit would understand this kind of logic). The London Undergound station staff also went on strike demanding "a more fair pay package" (at least they were honest). Then there's the Fire Fighters Union who also wanted more money. The Teachers' Union, The Postal Strike, Air Traffic Control Strike and even the baggage staff at Heathrow threatened to go on strike (I don't think they did). The list goes on and on and on.....
In almost every case the unions get what they want, or at the very least they reach a compromise.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:00 PM   #39
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

you seem to be a big fan of the UK (and US), Jimnik. just look at your avatar. i remember you were also wearing the british flag.

you haven't told us about the british outer politics yet.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:23 PM   #40
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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check out argentina or chile under pinochet. those countries have been devastated by the kind of "freedom" you're trying to defend here. america's going the same path and don't even get me started on eastern europe or russia.
You're comparing fascist Pinochet to the free Western World? Now you're talking like a true communist. There's no point in replying to this seriously.

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come on. some are more intelligent than others, it depends on the upbringings, the parents' care, how they raise the kids, what teachers bring along to guide him etc. there are people who're great in inventing, others are better in taking orders. the "equality when born" is a myth.
Well again I don't agree. Intelligence is important but determination even more so. Parents, teachers etc.. they can all influence a child but, at the end of the day, it has to come from within the child himself. There have been shitloads of cases of poor Asians and South Americans who were born into poverty but made it to the Western World and created fortunes of their own.

o
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k. so you're telling me donating is the key to social security? wow. i'm wondering how rich the 30 million americans living under the poverty line must be if all those billionaires living in the states would donate only a buck a day. fact is: even large amounts of donations in the states can't feed tens of millions properly. imagine how that adds up if donating seized...
There are no Americans living in what I would call "poverty". At worst they're living on the streets in New York demanding change from all the passers-by. These are not people who are suffering, or denied opportunities, on the same level as most Africans or Asians in this world. How much of Bill Gates' fortune has he kept for his own personal needs and the needs of his family? Less than 1%. He's semi-retired now and working full-time on his non-profit projects. How much more do you want?

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that free-will-thing is nowhere near being a solution. it's nice and billionaires can feel good about themselves, but it's marginal.
Again, it depends on what you see as the "solution". If the objective is to get every man, woman and child off the streets and into a home with plenty of food, free education and free healthcare then no this will never be achieved no matter what political system you live under. It's a fact of the real world and most people haven't learned to accept it.

I do believe that my free world is much closer to being a "solution" than your state control.

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as i said: the upper 10thousand can cope with restrictions, but the lowest 10thousand are not able to cope with a world as "free" as you want it to be.
I know that's the typical socialist mentallity. What if one billionaire's wealth was spread across a thousand homeless people. All of them would be millionaires and the problem would be solved. Right? Or, if we want to be more realistic, what if half his wealth was spread across the same people, all of them would still be very well off and could afford just the basic needs that they deserve as human beings. Right?

Wrong. Imagination is a wonderful thing and it can run away to solve many problems in an ideal world at any time, but it never solves any problems in the real world.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:25 PM   #41
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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you seem to be a big fan of the UK (and US), Jimnik. just look at your avatar. i remember you were also wearing the british flag.

you haven't told us about the british outer politics yet.
If you'd actually read my posts you'd see what my real opinions are.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:37 PM   #42
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i'll respond tomorrow if you don't mind. i'm going out now.
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Old 02-29-2008, 07:55 PM   #43
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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check out argentina or chile under pinochet. those countries have been devastated by the kind of "freedom" you're trying to defend here. america's going the same path and don't even get me started on eastern europe or russia.


These countries have been ''devastated.............''

I guess it is just a co-incidence then that these two devastated countries are #1 and #2 in GNP for South American countries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How would you describe the ones that are not among the privileged devastated ones?
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:03 PM   #44
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Bilbo View Post
you seem to be a big fan of the UK (and US), Jimnik. just look at your avatar. i remember you were also wearing the british flag.
How dare he not just live in a bubble and hate everything non-German?
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:06 PM   #45
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

i thought Argentina economy collapsed in 2002 , i must have dreamed. If Argentina is relatively "prosperous", i doubt it is a result of ultra liberal reforms
(would love to have an opinion of an Argentinian on this )
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