2013 Bundestagswahl (German Federal Election): A.Merkel def P.Steinbrück 42% - 26% - Page 2 - MensTennisForums.com

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Old 02-29-2008, 09:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
... I use to hate British politics a lot more when I was living there because I never appreciated its good aspects, which I do now.
that always happens. when i was in the uk during school for a year i was quite a patriot, but when i got home i started bashing again.

but since you're not really debating me point-on-point, let me go back to what actually started all this (you saying that german politics is "by far the worst"): not only were you apparently not able to back it up properly, but as it turns out britain and germany are obviously the only places you lived in. so the right statement for you to make would be along the lines of "from what i know, i like british politicis better than german". i give you that, fair enough.

but again - i just can't see why german politics look that bad to you overall. actually i always thought we're quite balanced in every aspect: our foreign policies aren't as aggressive as the anglo-saxons' and not as neutral as the swiss'. our domestic policies aren't as rigid and ruff around the edges as the americans' are but not as laissez-faire as the dutch. we're politically not as fractioned as the italians but not as united as russia. we're not as corrupt as eastern europe but not as clean as denmark. our taxation is higher than ireland but lower than sweden, finland or even countries like belgium or france. i could go on like this, believe me.

whenever the spd has rules, there's gonna be a sweep by the cdu with them taking over the bundesländer as well as the country (recently happened after schröder). it goes the other way as well. so obviously everything works quite well. plus we're (along with britain btw) one of the few remaining common sense countries when it comes to states servants - the german electorate wouldn't vote for someone like berlusconi with his mafia ties, we never had someone like le pen as the runner-up in election, no gyrtich ever emerged and none of our chancellors ever got divorced to marry a model he knew for a month like some old-fashioned playboy. i guess what i'm trying to bring across here is that there's still some sort of decency required to be accepted. politics isn't about rock'n'roll or a celebrity deathmatch.
so if you're as stupid as bush, as corrupt as berlusconi, as racist as kaczynski or as criminal as putin, you'd get smashed in the next elections, just like it's supposed to be (and it didn't happen in the countries i mentioned).

so to sum it up - to me, we're right on the cutting edge of mediochre when it comes to politics. we're not great, but we're certainly not "the worst". it all boils down to personal belief and you're entitled to your opinion, no doubt. i just found the words way too harsh, to be honest. contrary to britain we've always had a balance of power with the spd ruling a couple of years, then the cdu and vice versa. i find it a little suspicious that britain went from one extreme to another, having such a strong belief in what is happening atm. they're in for a big change in the near future, wanna bet?

anyways, all in all i guess i prefer the "german" approach to politics and the way of dealing with certain things - opposing harsh moves, trying to keep things balanced and initially kinda mistrusting and questioning a thing called globalization. and i wouldn't be fond of the british "rush" into one specific policy, breaking down many barriers and walls (figuratively) that simply cannot be rebuilt. it's risky and i'm not sure if it well pay off in the long term.

again, i'm not trying to offend you in any way, i was just puzzled last night that you came up with such a sentence as i always thought you were one of the decent ones on mtf. that hasn't changed a lot, but still...

----

for people who're non-resident in britain or germany, here's the deal for you:

the premier league is basically mirroring the two countries' developments pretty well. to judge what kind of system you'd prefer, all you have to do is answer the following question.

what league would you rather have in your country?

a) a league consisting of football companies under foreign flag and capital that wins almost everything internationally or

b) a league consisting of domestic football clubs that wins little?
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

I am quite happy with how politics is run in the Scandinavian nations and it works there and hasn't needed much outside help.
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I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1

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Old 02-29-2008, 09:31 AM   #18
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Getting fooled or just ignoring it?
getting fooled into ignoring it. what kind of idiotic idea is "ignoring tax evasion" in the first place?

seems like there are way more pro-capitalist pressure groups brainwashing britain than social stability pressure groups, denouncing blatant criminal behaviour. and there's quite a difference between what you call "communists" and the very idea of going after bad guys. criminal AND immoral behaviour has nothing to do with anti-capitalism but rather with common sense, values and sincerity.

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Originally Posted by Jimnik
"There's no balance anymore"? What kind of nonsense is that? Thatcher was the only PM who had the guts to stand up to the unions and it was the only chance the country had of avoiding a complete stand-still.
so where is the balance then? you just told me brits "don't care" about tax evasion. is that the right approach to billionaires refusing to pay for your children's healthcare, school or bridges? is that the base of keeping a society together? would you say not bothering is a way to campaign against those crooks? wouldn't you want to put some pressure on people who sneakily lobby the house of commons to privatize hospitals/roads/towns yet live in the carribean with no taxation whatsoever? this is not capitalism the way it should be, it's just a system gone mad. and this is something to stand up against, yes.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:32 AM   #19
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

A pitty the SED and DDR doesn't exist anymore : this was a piece of history. Beware, I hate communists. Love watching stuff about the time when there was the Berlin Wall and the DDR.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:33 AM   #20
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by PMK is Innocent View Post
I am quite happy with how politics is run in the Scandinavian nations and it works there and hasn't needed much outside help.
i would be too, judging from what i know. scandinavia also shows that having a strong social net doesn't interfere with innovations, personal freedom and economic prosperity.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:40 AM   #21
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Martian Jenya View Post
A pitty the SED and DDR doesn't exist anymore : this was a piece of history. Beware, I hate communists. Love watching stuff about the time when there was the Berlin Wall and the DDR.
DDR really couldn't have gone as a stand alone nation, but they had massive upheavals in a short period of time and of course the old weak blame the weaker, when things get tough economically and this is clear here.

You liked the Stasi smell jars then?
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Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:45 AM   #22
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

are you swedish, pmk?
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by PMK is Innocent View Post
DDR really couldn't have gone as a stand alone nation, but they had massive upheavals in a short period of time and of course the old weak blame the weaker, when things get tough economically and this is clear here.

You liked the Stasi smell jars then?
can't you read ? I hate communists ! Without the Stasi of course.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Martian Jenya View Post
can't you read ? I hate communists ! Without the Stasi of course.
Missed the joke then? It was in reference to the smell jars, not to Honecker, Meilke or Ulbricht.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Filo V. View Post
I definitely would have preferred Gaba winning as he needs the points much more, but Jan would have beaten him anyway. I expect Hajek to destroy Machado, like 6-1 6-2.
Machado wins 6-2 6-1
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Old 02-29-2008, 12:22 PM   #25
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

I don't know much about Deutsche Politik, except for Merkel and the Iraqi oil for food scandal, so I'll just read.

However I did confirm one thing, Bilbo is not much interested in this thread. I guess he is reserving his scathing wit and incisive commentary for American politics.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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but since you're not really debating me point-on-point, let me go back to what actually started all this (you saying that german politics is "by far the worst"): not only were you apparently not able to back it up properly, but as it turns out britain and germany are obviously the only places you lived in. so the right statement for you to make would be along the lines of "from what i know, i like british politicis better than german". i give you that, fair enough.
All I said was that I was ignorant of Scandinavian politics and I admitted that Germany might not be quite as bad as that. I've also lived in America and I definitely prefer politics over there to almost any country here in Europe. Switzerland is fine, Spain is OK and even France, now with Sarkhozy, is better than Germany. Irish politics, of which we hear a lot in Britain, has improved greatly since they joined the EU. Moving away from Europe, I watched some of the recent election in Australia and they do a much better job of debating the important issues than here in Germany. I love Germany but the politics here pisses me off even more than any other Western country I know of.

Quote:
but again - i just can't see why german politics look that bad to you overall. actually i always thought we're quite balanced in every aspect: our foreign policies aren't as aggressive as the anglo-saxons' and not as neutral as the swiss'. our domestic policies aren't as rigid and ruff around the edges as the americans' are but not as laissez-faire as the dutch. we're politically not as fractioned as the italians but not as united as russia. we're not as corrupt as eastern europe but not as clean as denmark. our taxation is higher than ireland but lower than sweden, finland or even countries like belgium or france. i could go on like this, believe me.
Because Germans just don't get the big picture. They talk all day long about their "morals" and they never notice the difference between their ideal world and the real world. Just because you think carbon emission is bad, greedy people are bad, free education is good, free healthcare is good and loads of other things doesn't mean you can just decide to have them and expect it to work.

Quote:
whenever the spd has rules, there's gonna be a sweep by the cdu with them taking over the bundesländer as well as the country (recently happened after schröder). it goes the other way as well. so obviously everything works quite well. plus we're (along with britain btw) one of the few remaining common sense countries when it comes to states servants - the german electorate wouldn't vote for someone like berlusconi with his mafia ties, we never had someone like le pen as the runner-up in election, no gyrtich ever emerged and none of our chancellors ever got divorced to marry a model he knew for a month like some old-fashioned playboy. i guess what i'm trying to bring across here is that there's still some sort of decency required to be accepted. politics isn't about rock'n'roll or a celebrity deathmatch.
so if you're as stupid as bush, as corrupt as berlusconi, as racist as kaczynski or as criminal as putin, you'd get smashed in the next elections, just like it's supposed to be (and it didn't happen in the countries i mentioned).
But I'm only comparing Western (developed) countries. Off course German politics is much better than most of Eastern Europe, South America, Africa and Asia - I never denied this.

Quote:
so to sum it up - to me, we're right on the cutting edge of mediochre when it comes to politics. we're not great, but we're certainly not "the worst". it all boils down to personal belief and you're entitled to your opinion, no doubt. i just found the words way too harsh, to be honest. contrary to britain we've always had a balance of power with the spd ruling a couple of years, then the cdu and vice versa. i find it a little suspicious that britain went from one extreme to another, having such a strong belief in what is happening atm. they're in for a big change in the near future, wanna bet?
Like I said, the mentallity that started WW2 is still there - thats what I hate. Too much envy of rich people, too much concern that someone else isn't living by the same moral principles that they believe in. And it's not just from one German to another, it's now spreading towards hatred of their neighbouring countries.

Quote:
anyways, all in all i guess i prefer the "german" approach to politics and the way of dealing with certain things - opposing harsh moves, trying to keep things balanced and initially kinda mistrusting and questioning a thing called globalization. and i wouldn't be fond of the british "rush" into one specific policy, breaking down many barriers and walls (figuratively) that simply cannot be rebuilt. it's risky and i'm not sure if it well pay off in the long term.
I personally love globalization but actually I don't see how Britain have "rushed" into it.

Quote:
again, i'm not trying to offend you in any way, i was just puzzled last night that you came up with such a sentence as i always thought you were one of the decent ones on mtf. that hasn't changed a lot, but still...
Because politics annoys the hell out of me here and really it's one of the few things that does. I love Munich far more than London, I even love the average German more than the average Brit, but definitely not when it comes to politics.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:30 PM   #27
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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for people who're non-resident in britain or germany, here's the deal for you:

the premier league is basically mirroring the two countries' developments pretty well. to judge what kind of system you'd prefer, all you have to do is answer the following question.

what league would you rather have in your country?

a) a league consisting of football companies under foreign flag and capital that wins almost everything internationally or

b) a league consisting of domestic football clubs that wins little?
I honestly wouldn't care and I don't see why you would be so determined to see only (or mostly) Germans in the Bundesliga. What's wrong with people from other countries?

Germany just hosted arguably the most successful World Cup in history and it was because so many people from many different nations were integrating together.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:44 PM   #28
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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getting fooled into ignoring it. what kind of idiotic idea is "ignoring tax evasion" in the first place?
This is exactly where you and I strongly disagree. There's more to life than creating and obeying rules which is a concept totally alien most Germans. It is literally like a nation of robots and when one of them mal-functions they can't be left alone, they have to be corrected or destroyed.

Quote:
seems like there are way more pro-capitalist pressure groups brainwashing britain than social stability pressure groups, denouncing blatant criminal behaviour. and there's quite a difference between what you call "communists" and the very idea of going after bad guys. criminal AND immoral behaviour has nothing to do with anti-capitalism but rather with common sense, values and sincerity.
There are plenty of lame-ass socialist pressure groups in Britain and they drive me crazy too. But the thing about Britain is that socialism isn't there because of the "moral issues" that germany has. It's mostly there because Brits are lazy and they love their doll, free home, free healthcare, free education for the kids. They just can't be assed to work or at least show some initiative and go for something better than a dead-end job at a car factory. Germans are far more hard working than Brits which is why they can cope much better even when the state is working for them. Whereas the Brits and the Irish need a kick up the ass to go to work which is why capitalism is so important. Without it there's just no motivation to do anything and everything comes to a stand-still.

Quote:
so where is the balance then? you just told me brits "don't care" about tax evasion. is that the right approach to billionaires refusing to pay for your children's healthcare, school or bridges? is that the base of keeping a society together? would you say not bothering is a way to campaign against those crooks? wouldn't you want to put some pressure on people who sneakily lobby the house of commons to privatize hospitals/roads/towns yet live in the carribean with no taxation whatsoever? this is not capitalism the way it should be, it's just a system gone mad. and this is something to stand up against, yes.
Billionares paying for your children's education? Why should he pay? Just because he can, and you can't be assed to go out and support your own child.

You see this is no longer an argument about German politics, more like Capitalism vs Socialism.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:21 PM   #29
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

ok, this is gonna be long. but anyways, given that you seem to stick to pure debate, it's gonna be interesting.

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All I said was that I was ignorant of Scandinavian politics and I admitted that Germany might not be quite as bad as that. I've also lived in America and I definitely prefer politics over there to almost any country here in Europe. Switzerland is fine, Spain is OK and even France, now with Sarkhozy, is better than Germany. Irish politics, of which we hear a lot in Britain, has improved greatly since they joined the EU. Moving away from Europe, I watched some of the recent election in Australia and they do a much better job of debating the important issues than here in Germany. I love Germany but the politics here pisses me off even more than any other Western country I know of.
yeah, but it becomes more and more clear that we're not debating politics itself but rather policies. at first glance i thought you'd be going for the circumstances under which we are ruled to some extent, but it's rather you having a different opinion than our chancellor. that's fine with me. but you do realise that kohl was different? schröder was too. hartz 4 was his idea and france, italy, sweden and that lot are far behind us regarding the social structure. and kohl was the elected chancellor for almost 20 years, so the judgement of the german electorate in that particular time must be correct in your mind, right?
and your points regarding "debating the important issues" etc. are subjective views of course, as are mine. no need for us to debate about that, i guess we're just different in setting priorities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
Because Germans just don't get the big picture. They talk all day long about their "morals" and they never notice the difference between their ideal world and the real world. Just because you think carbon emission is bad, greedy people are bad, free education is good, free healthcare is good and loads of other things doesn't mean you can just decide to have them and expect it to work.
man, seems like i don't even know you anymore. "germans don't get the big picture"? what kind of a sweeping generalization is that? it's like me saying that brits all have red hair, look pale and pasty and walk around in their trainers all day long. you can do better than that, so cut that crap out.
and i gotta repeat what i just said: so according to you german "got the big picture" 16 years and then suddenly lost it? then got it again during schröder for some time and then lost it again? then got it back during the landtagswahlen just to lose it at the bundestagswahlen? that just doesn't make sense. as i tried to point out before - germans obviously love it politically balanced. what's so hard to understand about that? all you have to do is check the results over the last 50 years.

btw i'm on your side when it comes to many things you mention, but i feel like i have to defend "my country", as funny as it may sound, against your reckless bashing. quite obviously the living standard in britain is the same as in germany, so politics over here apparently weren't "wrong" in its actual sense but rather taste different than british politicis. take a look around, the effect is the same, the output's as high as the british output.

it's not just that i "want free healthcare" and so on, but i definitely don't want privatized health care as in the states. so yes, i prefer our system. japan has it, scandinavia has it, france has it and it works, as simple as that.

and i'm once again stunned about your indifference regarding morals. in your opinion, what should be done about the tax evasion scandal? just neglect it? confess that "the real world", as you call it, works like that and accept misdemeanor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
But I'm only comparing Western (developed) countries. Off course German politics is much better than most of Eastern Europe, South America, Africa and Asia - I never denied this.
well, you didn't exclude them either. phew...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
Like I said, the mentallity that started WW2 is still there - thats what I hate. Too much envy of rich people, too much concern that someone else isn't living by the same moral principles that they believe in. And it's not just from one German to another, it's now spreading towards hatred of their neighbouring countries.
you're ignoring my whole point for 3 paragraphs - since you're basically just repeating what you said in your initial statements, i guess your message has been delivered then. i got it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimnik
I personally love globalization but actually I don't see how Britain have "rushed" into it.
what's that got to do with my point? you know exactly what i was talking about: unions, help for low-income-families etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimnik
Because politics annoys the hell out of me here and really it's one of the few things that does. I love Munich far more than London, I even love the average German more than the average Brit, but definitely not when it comes to politics.
and that's ok. may i ask you about your german skills?
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:23 PM   #30
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Default Re: Deutsche Politik

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Originally Posted by Jimnik View Post
I honestly wouldn't care and I don't see why you would be so determined to see only (or mostly) Germans in the Bundesliga. What's wrong with people from other countries?

Germany just hosted arguably the most successful World Cup in history and it was because so many people from many different nations were integrating together.
uhm.

come on, you once again know that i wasn't talking about the players, so don't make me look bad on purpose. i'm talking about shinawatra and abramovitch, glazer and hicks and so on.
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