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Old 11-30-2007, 09:46 PM   #61
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
In theory she can, in reality we all know that will never happen.
She is a figurehead indeed.

Just curious, which plays the most important role for british voters?
Party's agenda or its leader's personality?
Though I guess your answer.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:48 PM   #62
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

It's not all about whether the Venezuelans have the right to vote whatever way they want. They do. But it could be for the last time.
But if the handouts to the poor get their immediate attention and they vote YES on Sunday for constitutional changes, some of those include being able to detain citizens without charge for as long as Chavez wants, and censorship of the press. So they will have been fooled into voting to demolish democracy. And when the handouts stop as they inevitably will, because Socialism guarantees incompetence in business, they will be worse off than ever.
Remember, that last week Chavez said that anyone who votes NO on Sunday is a traitor. A traitor to what? To Venezuela or to Chavez' dream of absolute power?
At present there is no way for the people of Cuba to get rid of Fidel. They can not democratically remove him. That is the position that Chavez wants for himself, absolute power. Of course, this is the basis of communism, the people have to be terrorized into total fear of the Party. Thus Lenin and Mao together slaughtered an estimated 110 million people to keep that fear alive.
So this thread was to lament the possible death of democracy in Venezuela, not to tell the Venezuelans how to vote.

undiomele doesn't care if the people of Cuba have to line up early in the morning for one roll of bread. undiomele doesn't care if Cubans are denied the Internet because they might be contaminated by outside interests. undiomele doesn't care if there is only one newspaper allowed in Cuba and it is printed by the Communist Party. undiomele doesn't care that Cubans are given jobs by the Communist Party, they can not follow their dreams.
undiomele only cares for Socialist theory. The results of putting it into practice can just be brushed under the carpet. Just like she can take a 45% possibility of a recession in 2008 and declare it already exists in October 2007.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:55 PM   #63
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by getta View Post
She is a figurehead indeed.

Just curious, which plays the most important role for british voters?
Party's agenda or its leader's personality?
Though I guess your answer.
My answer? I honestly don't know. I think most British voters vote as their parents did and what they percieve to be their ''class' and since there is not much difference between the two main parties as regards what they actually do in office, then they know it is not a big deal. The few voters that do switch back and forth make sure the parties alternate in power every now and then, just to try and keep them honest.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:56 PM   #64
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by getta View Post
She is a figurehead indeed.

Just curious, which plays the most important role for british voters?
Party's agenda or its leader's personality?
Though I guess your answer.
Right now the policies of Labour and Conservative are very similar on a wide range of issues. Certain people always vote Labour (despite how different the party is now) and certain people vote Conservative, but since policy is so similar, a lot of the floating electorate makes decisions based on party leadership. I hated Blair with a passion, but he had a lot of charisma and public appeal, which clearly helped him.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:57 PM   #65
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Originally Posted by undomiele View Post
Assuming of course that Chavez is everything you think he is, a bad, corrupt, undemocratic leader, blah blah blah, which you have yet to present any kind of credible evidence about, etc. Youre just not making any kind of sense at all. Last time I checked, democracy is still a three pronged system, the minority can still elect their representatives to Congress while the majority chooses the executive leader. The referendum proposal is approved by Congress. This is the case in Venezuela, so what exactly is your problem??? Do you think the minority should settle constitutional issues?

I really don't see the difference between Chavez being in power, then say the fact that the Bush family has ruled the United States for 12 years or that the Clintons are trying to accomplish the same, or that the Kirchners have done the same, or Tony Blair being in power for 10 years plus, etc, etc. The fact of the matter is oligarchs, rich powerful dynastic families and alliances of the upper class, tend to be elected to the executive branch in a lot of so-called democracies. Its a natural trend that the American founding founders anticipated, and why the Congressional branch - the most representative branch - was designed to counteract the Executive.

As for "getting elected by any means" what exactly are you implying? Again, he's doing everything democractically, so what are you getting at? That he won't respect the will of the people if they reject the referendum? He's fixing the ballot boxes? Tell me.



What actual proof of human rights violations has Chavez committed ?? Illuminate me. All the arguments the opposition have claimed can be explained, and surely do not fall beyond what other democratic leaders have done or are doing in the first world. List that lengthy list of violations for me please. Im dying to know.



Fuck you, I live in the corner of O'Higgins and Jose Hernandez in Belgrano in the city of Buenos Aires, Argentina, and boy is it a hot day. Im 100% Argentine. See where all your pretentious, patronising assumptions of people are leaving you? Your head up your ass thats what.



The clown closest to Mussolini, Hitler and those kind of assholes is Bush, not Chavez. Last time I checked Chavez didn't invade anybody.
}

When people resort to personal insult in a discussion is a proof that they are lacking arguments.

Just for your info: free speech is a human right, private property is a human right, due process is a human right, right to assembly (without being beaten up) is a human right. Do I need to remind you that he closed a tv channel? DOn't you know that students are being beaten up in demostrations? It was shown on tv and you can see it on you tube too. Do you know that the right of private property will almost dissapear with the new Constitution?

You want facts: The Sociedad Interamericana de Prensa (SIP) said Chavez is attempting to anhilitate free speech (http://www.sipiapa.org/espanol/press...eleaseID=2028).
You can also have a look at http://www.prensavenezuela.com/

Misión de la SIP ratifica que existen causas de honda preocupación en el clima de libertad de prensa en Venezuela

Caracas, Venezuela (20 de noviembre de 2007). – La misión internacional de la Sociedad Interamericana de Prensa (SIP), tras dos días de visita en este país, ratifica su honda preocupación sobre la inestabilidad del clima de libertad de prensa en general, advierte sobre el escaso debate y conciencia pública respecto al proceso de reforma constitucional y solicita a las autoridades a crear un marco adecuado de garantías y de transparencia para el referéndum del 2 de diciembre.

La delegación de la SIP, encabezada por su presidente Earl Maucker, tuvo reuniones y charlas con diversos sectores, entre ellos con periodistas, representantes de los medios de comunicación y de organizaciones periodísticas, abogados, consultores y dirigentes de organizaciones de derechos humanos. Sin embargo, la SIP lamentó que nadie de los tres poderes públicos del país y del Consejo Nacional Electoral haya aceptado entrevistarse con la delegación a pesar de los innumerables contactos realizados en semanas previas desde la oficina de la SIP con sede en Miami.

“Llegamos a Venezuela con la mayor disposición para escuchar a los representantes de todos los sectores, pero la indiferencia del gobierno para hablar sobre temas de libertad de prensa y de expresión tan esenciales para la vida democrática de un pueblo, potencia nuestro pensamiento de que no existe una verdadero clima de respeto, de tolerancia y de voluntad política para mantener un diálogo abierto y de comprensión, especialmente ahora cuando los ciudadanos deben tener el máximo de información para enfrentar un proceso de referéndum que implica cambios radicales en el sistema política del país”, dijo Maucker, director y primer vicepresidente del South Florida Sun-Sentinel, con sede en Fort Lauderdale, Florida

Maucker añadió que “mientras fuimos recogiendo información nos fuimos preocupando más y más por todo tipo de condiciones que debilitan las libertades civiles. Existen medidas dentro de la reforma que tienen el potencial de minar la libertad de prensa y de expresión lo que ahonda nuestra preocupación”.

La misión pudo auscultar que la polarización de la opinión pública, cada vez más exacerbada en el país debido a un clima político en el que prima la confrontación y no un diálogo respetuoso, plural y diverso, y el poco tiempo desde que la Asamblea Nacional aprobó los artículos de la reforma constitucional hasta que vaya a referéndum el 2 de diciembre, evidencian que no existe un proceso educativo en el que el público pueda medir concientemente los beneficios y las consecuencias de los cambios.

La delegación restó importancia a una resolución de la Asamblea Nacional que pide al Poder Ejecutivo de Venezuela declarar “non grata” la presencia de la SIP en el país. La resolución data del 8 de noviembre y fue publicada como espacio pagado el lunes en los medios de comunicación.

“Es una evidencia más del clima de confrontación y de la poca voluntad al diálogo franco y respetuoso que implica un clima verdadero de libertad de expresión como columna vertebral de la democracia”, indicó Gonzalo Marroquín, presidente de la Comisión de Libertad de Prensa e Información.

La SIP ratificó lo expresado en sus informes de libertad de prensa en Venezuela en los que en los últimos años criticó y denunció una estrategia gubernamental para acallar a los medios independientes o aquellos que no se han alineado a la política de comunicación del Estado.

En ese sentido, expresó que la Ley de Contenidos, la reforma del Código Penal, la creación y financiación de medios oficiales de propaganda, el acoso judicial y legal contra medios y periodistas, la agresión constante de periodistas, la falta de acceso a las fuentes oficiales de información, la discriminación en el otorgamiento de la publicidad oficial, y la confrontación constante en contra de periodistas y medios, son signos evidentes de esa estrategia de coacción a la libertad de prensa.

La SIP también advirtió que el cierre de RCTV el 27 de mayo pasado, la cadena independiente de mayor audiencia a nivel nacional, pudo ser parte de una estrategia global para evitar que haya mayor diversidad y pluralidad de opiniones en el proceso actual de reforma constitucional. Cuestionó asimismo el acoso oficial contra Globovisión y otros medios independientes que deja en evidencia un sistema de amedrentamiento y de sembrar temor, con el objetivo de que los medios y los periodistas se autocensuren.

La misión de la SIP se trasladó a Caracas, por décima ocasión desde 1999, en cumplimiento de una resolución aprobada durante su asamblea general de octubre pasado en Miami. Asimismo, la SIP confirmó sus planes de hacer su próxima asamblea de marzo de 2008 en Venezuela.

Además de Maucker y Marroquín, la delegación está compuesta por Enrique Santos, primer vicepresidente, codirector de El Tiempo, Colombia; Edward Seaton, ex presidente, director de The Manhattan Mercury, Estados Unidos; Alejandro Miró Quesada, ex presidente, director de El Comercio, Perú; Bruce Brugmann, miembro del Comité Ejecutivo, director de San Francisco Bay Guardian, Estados Unidos; Mark Fitzgerald, miembro de la Junta de Directores, columnista Editor & Publisher, Estados Unidos; Julio E. Muñoz, director ejecutivo y Ricardo Trotti, director de Libertad de Prensa.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:00 PM   #66
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
Right now the policies of Labour and Conservative are very similar on a wide range of issues. Certain people always vote Labour (despite how different the party is now) and certain people vote Conservative, but since policy is so similar, a lot of the floating electorate makes decisions based on party leadership. I hated Blair with a passion, but he had a lot of charisma and public appeal, which clearly helped him.
We virtually wrote the same thing. Is that good or bad
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:07 PM   #67
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julio1974 View Post
When people resort to personal insult in a discussion is a proof that they are lacking arguments.


You want facts:
Right on the first part. undiomele thinks that vulgarity is a good discussion tactic. (Reminds me of Chavez, actually.)

Wrong on the second part. undiomele does not let facts get in the way at all.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:11 PM   #68
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddyholly View Post
Right on the first part. undiomele thinks that vulgarity is a good discussion tactic. (Reminds me of Chavez, actually.)

Wrong on the second part. undiomele does not let facts get in the way at all.
I'm a bit stubborn and I'll give him more facts, from Human Right Watch:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/11/29/venezu17447.htm
Venezuela: Proposed Amendments Threaten Basic Rights
Government Seeks Overbroad Emergency Powers for President
– Amendments proposed to Venezuela’s constitution increasing presidential emergency powers would jeopardize the protection of fundamental rights at times when they are most needed, Human Rights Watch said today.

These amendments would enable President Chávez to suspend basic rights indefinitely by maintaining a perpetual state of emergency.

José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch


The proposed changes would eliminate the constitutional prohibition on suspending due process guarantees during states of emergency. They would also eliminate specific time limits on states of emergency, giving the president de facto power to suspend due process and other basic rights indefinitely.

Human Rights Watch is particularly concerned that these provisions could lead to suspension of fundamental rights in violation of international law, as the proposed amendments would also eliminate the requirement that such restrictions “meet the requirements, principles, and guarantees established in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the American Convention on Human Rights.”

In a positive step, one of the amendments proposed would expand the existing constitutional prohibition against discrimination to cover several other bases for discrimination, including sexual orientation and political orientation. Yet even this protection would also be subject to indefinite suspension, should the president declare a state of emergency.

“These amendments would enable President Chávez to suspend basic rights indefinitely by maintaining a perpetual state of emergency,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch.

Suspension of Due Process Guarantees
President Hugo Chávez's supporters in the National Assembly originally proposed completely eliminating the constitutional prohibition on suspending due process rights during states of emergency. In response to widespread criticism of this proposal, the legislators modified it, adding language guaranteeing that the right to a defense lawyer and the right to a trial with ordinary judges could not be suspended.

However, this proposal would still allow the president to suspend other fundamental due process guarantees, including the presumption of innocence, the right to be tried by an independent and impartial tribunal, the right against self-incrimination, the right not to be convicted for a non-existent crime, and the right against double jeopardy. In addition, the proposal appears to allow for the suspension of the rights of a defendant to know the charges and have access to the evidence against him.

The suspension of the presumption of innocence, the right against self-incrimination, and other guarantees of a fair trial would be in violation of international law, which prohibits their suspension even in times of emergency or armed conflict.

“The final proposal on due process is as dangerous as the original,” said Vivanco. “The right to a trial means nothing if it’s not a fair trial, and the right to lawyer is small comfort if a court can presume you’re guilty.”

Other Fundamental Rights at Risk
Under the proposed amendment, the constitution would explicitly protect a number of rights from suspension during states of emergency. These include the right to life, the right to personal integrity, the right not to be sentenced to prison terms exceeding 30 years, and the prohibitions against torture, incommunicado detention and enforced disappearance. The right to habeas corpus would also remain unaffected.

Yet the proposed changes would leave open the possibility that a wide range of other fundamental rights could be suspended indefinitely. Both the United Nations Human Rights Committee and the Inter-American Court of Human Rights have made clear that under international law many of these rights are considered so fundamental that countries are not permitted to derogate from their obligations to respect them – even in a state of emergency. These include the guarantee of equality and non-discrimination, the freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and the guarantee against retroactive laws.

The proposed emergency powers would also allow the president to suspend indefinitely the right of citizens to information, a right that is integral to the protection of human rights and accountability.

“Proponents of these amendments insist that this government would never violate these basic rights,” said Vivanco. “But why, then, have they gone to such lengths to empower the president to do so?”

Expansion of the President’s Emergency Decree Power
The proposed changes would greatly enhance the president’s power to impose and maintain the states of emergency in which these basic rights could be suspended.

It would broaden the circumstances in which the president could impose states of emergency, to include not only “catastrophes,” “calamities” and “other similar situations,” but also cases where “a certain and imminent possibility exists for the occurrence of situations capable of originating catastrophes, public calamities and other similar situations.” This is of concern, because, as the UN Human Rights Committee has made clear, “not every disturbance or catastrophe qualifies as a public emergency which threatens the life of the nation” and would justify restrictions or suspension of protected rights.

The proposal would eliminate the existing time limits on states of emergency, leaving it entirely to the discretion of the president to determine when an “emergency” has ended. Under the proposed amendments, the president would still be required to seek congressional approval for an emergency decree (within an eight-day period), but would not need authorization to extend it. The proposal would also eliminate the power of the National Assembly to revoke the state of emergency.

The reform would also eliminate the requirement that the Supreme Court review the constitutionality of the decree regulating the suspension of rights during times of emergency. Although the proposed amendment indicates that rights should only be suspended “temporarily,” it provides no mechanism for ending the suspension so long as the state of emergency remains in place.

Expanded Anti-Discrimination Protections
One very positive measure in the reform package is an amendment that would expand the constitutional prohibition on discrimination to explicitly cover discrimination on the basis of ethnicity, age, health, sexual orientation and political orientation. The anti-discrimination provision of the current constitution makes specific reference only to race, sex, creed, and “social condition” as protected categories.

The prohibition on political discrimination is particularly welcome given the Chávez administration’s past public endorsements of political discrimination against those who do not share the government’s views. (Last year, for example, Chávez applauded his energy minister’s call for state oil company employees who disagree with the government to give up their jobs. He himself has called for military personnel to do the same.)

However, like other basic rights, the new anti-discrimination guarantees would also be subject to indefinite suspension during states of emergency.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:16 PM   #69
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
undiomele doesn't care if the people of Cuba have to line up early in the morning for one roll of bread. undiomele doesn't care if Cubans are denied the Internet because they might be contaminated by outside interests. undiomele doesn't care if there is only one newspaper allowed in Cuba and it is printed by the Communist Party. undiomele doesn't care that Cubans are given jobs by the Communist Party, they can not follow their dreams.
undiomele only cares for Socialist theory. The results of putting it into practice can just be brushed under the carpet. Just like she can take a 45% possibility of a recession in 2008 and declare it already exists in October 2007.

In all the posts you've written, this is the first time youve ever outright LIED and MISREPRESENTED me and my actual beliefs. These, by the way, are completely different from what you'd like to think they are.

You obviously consider me enough of a threat to make up shit about me and put words in my mouth.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:17 PM   #70
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

More facts from Human Right Watch: Chavez notion of judicial independence (undomiele: this is an indicator of real democracy)

Venezuela: Chávez Allies Pack Supreme Court
The Venezuelan Congress dealt a severe blow to judicial independence by packing the country’s Supreme Court with 12 new justices, Human Rights Watch said today. A majority of the ruling coalition, dominated by President Hugo Chávez’s party, named the justices late yesterday, filling seats created by a law passed in May that expanded the court’s size by more than half.

Five years ago, President Chávez’s supporters helped to enshrine the principle of judicial independence in a new democratic constitution. Now, by packing the country’s highest court, they are betraying that principle and degrading Venezuelan democracy.


Venezuela: Judicial Independence Under Siege
Press Release, June 17, 2004

Rigging the Rule of Law
Report, June 17, 2004


“Five years ago, President Chávez’s supporters helped to enshrine the principle of judicial independence in a new democratic constitution,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Now, by packing the country’s highest court, they are betraying that principle and degrading Venezuelan democracy.”

The law passed in May expanded the court from 20 to 32 members. In addition to the justices named to the 12 new seats, five justices were named to fill vacancies that had opened in recent months, and 32 more were named as reserve justices for the court. Members and allies of President Chávez’s Fifth Republic Movement (Movimiento V República, or MVR) form a majority in Congress.

In 1999 a constituent assembly convoked by President Chávez drafted a constitution that guarantees the independence of the judicial branch and the autonomy of the Supreme Court. The Constitution specifically seeks to guarantee the independence of Supreme Court justices by establishing an impeachment process according to which justices may only be removed for “serious offenses” by a two-thirds majority vote by Congress.

But in May, President Chávez signed a court-packing law that allowed his governing coalition in the legislature to obtain an overwhelming majority of seats on the country’s highest court. The 17 new justices (and 32 reserves) were selected yesterday by a simply majority vote of the governing coalition, which did not reveal the names of the nominees to the opposition members of Congress until the time of the vote.

The court-packing law signed in May also gave the governing coalition the power to remove judges from the Court without the two-thirds majority vote required under the constitution. In June, two justices retired after facing possible suspension from the Supreme Court as a result of these new provisions.

The political takeover of the Supreme Court will compound the damage already done to judicial independence by policies pursued by the court itself. The Supreme Court, which has administrative control over the judiciary, has failed to provide security of tenure to 80 percent of the country’s judges. In March, the court summarily fired three judges after they had decided politically controversial cases.

Chávez supporters have justified the court-packing effort largely as a response to pro-opposition rulings in a deeply divided court, such as a highly questionable decision that absolved military officers who participated in the 2002 coup.

“President Chávez and his supporters should be taking steps to strengthen the judiciary,” Vivanco said. “Instead, they are rigging the system to favor their own interests.”
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:20 PM   #71
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

More facts from Human Right Watch


Venezuela: Investigate Pre-Referendum Violence

The Venezuelan authorities should carry out prompt, thorough and impartial investigations into all acts of violence committed against demonstrators both supporting and opposing the constitutional reforms proposed by the government, Human Rights Watch said today.

Tens of thousands of Venezuelans have participated in street demonstrations ahead of a national referendum to be held on December 2. Campaigning will continue for the rest of the week, and both supporters and opponents of the reforms are planning massive public events.

Despite simmering political tensions, most of the activities have been peaceful. However, there have also been incidents ending in violence, with conflicting accounts about who was responsible. There has also been one credible allegation of the kidnapping and torture of two students because of their involvement in antigovernment protests.

“The Venezuelan government has a duty to investigate this violence against demonstrators and ensure that these investigations are thorough and impartial,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Whoever is responsible for these crimes must be held accountable.”

Two students, Werner Geisse and Rafael Parra, were allegedly tortured on November 23 after participating in a protest against the reforms. They told members of the press that they were abducted from a shopping mall in Lara state by two armed men wearing black hoods, forced into a van without license plates, and driven around for two hours before being released.

The students allege that, during their abduction, they were interrogated regarding the names of student protest leaders, and were beaten and burned with cigarettes when they did not provide answers. TV footage of an interview with the students on Saturday shows Parra still bleeding from a nose injury and both students with blisters on their forearms.

In another incident, on November 26, a 19-year-old construction worker, José Ángel Yépez, was shot dead and several others were injured during protests against the constitutional reforms in Carobobo state. Government officials have stated that Yépez was peacefully on his way to work when opposition protesters opened fire.

But according to the Venezuelan newspaper, Últimas Noticias, a group of government supporters threw rocks at opposition demonstrators and burned a nearby car, leading to an exchange of gunfire in which Yépez, one of the government supporters, died. Police immediately arrested the president of a local neighborhood association for the murder, and at least 15 opposition protesters were detained in connection with the violence.

On November 7, masked gunmen on motorcycles entered the Central University of Venezuela campus and shot at a group of students returning from a protest against the reforms. At least eight students were injured, two with gunshot wounds, according to government officials. University officials accused the government of orchestrating the groups who opened fire, while government ministers faulted the returning protesters, university authorities, and the political opposition for the violence.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:09 PM   #72
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by undomiele View Post
If you ask me, the upper class in Venezuela had decades to do something about the level of poverty in their countries, to better distribute the wealth and largesse of their oil profits among the poor, to build a welfare system, better educational system, etc. Instead, they spent the oil money on their mansions, their families, their trips abroad, and now that a popular president unaffiliated with their interests comes along to stir up civic consciousness and awareness, to empower the poor, they whine and think its all so unfair. Well, they frickin' asked for it. Their blatant Greed and ideas of self-entitlement throughout the decades is what made Chavez happen. The poor one day woke up and decided they had had enough of them, their lies and corruption, that's all. That's the revolution Chavez is talking about.

Venezuela is a country where less than 5% of the population owns 80% of the land. How is this in any way fair? How can anyone expect to diversify an economy on resources outside of oil, to establish a middle class, when the rich own 80% of the land??? Its ridiculous. Small wonder the poor have had enough of the ruling class and support Chavez.

As far as Im concerned, the Venezuelan elite had had their chance to fix things as they could've, should've, for years, and they blew it. They brought this upon themselves.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4721961.stm
I had not seen this post. With this, I agree99%. The rich fucked it badly. I just disagree with you that Chavez represents the poor. In my view, Chavez is just a clown that is playing with that past, but wil do nothing to make Venezuela a more developped and more fair country. We will just see a change of names in the 5% that owns the country, that's all.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:12 PM   #73
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Julio, honey, Im a girl, not a guy. (When does a guy ever say "honey"?) I was being sarcastic cos you patronised me with your talk of me living in the first world, and you thinking I didnt know what I was talking about. I know exactly what Im talking about. I used to work for the Embassy of Venezuela and been to Venezuela several times. Can you Julio claim a better background for knowing what you are talking about? Have you ever been to Venezuela?

Quote:
Just for your info: free speech is a human right, private property is a human right, due process is a human right, right to assembly (without being beaten up) is a human right. Do I need to remind you that he closed a tv channel? DOn't you know that students are being beaten up in demostrations? It was shown on tv and you can see it on you tube too. Do you know that the right of private property will almost dissapear with the new Constitution?
The fact of the matter is the media in Venezuela is owned by the Opposition, by the elite who hate Chavez with a passion. Everything they generally report on Chavez is biased, twisted and untrue. The Cisneros group for example, for a long time, ran tidbits on their programmes that compared Chavez to the devil and all that.

The Free Press Association, a non-profit, independent organisation, said the following earlier this year: "Venezuela’s media, owned largely by the country’s wealthy elites, are arguably the most rabidly antigovernment media in the world."

You should read their article describing the ACTUAL media situation there and how simplistic it is to say he is against the free press, when they constantly bait and lie about him all the time. http://www.freepress.net/news/20947

I have more sources than that one if you require more. As for the sources you quoted, namely SIP, if you actually researched the organisation a little more you would realise that only media owners, and the journalists they employ, which in the case of Venezuela would pertain to the Opposition, make up the organisation, so you can't really trust what they are saying.

Human Rights Watch, in turn, picks up on SIP information and is a non-governmental organisation that doesn't even keep an office in Venezuela. Of course, people who are against Chavez, both in Venezuela and abroad, are quick to rely on the statements of these biased organisations.

However, there are plenty of reliable sources out there that defend Chavez and understand how the media situation actually is.

When you actually go to newspapers that actually do own offices in Venezuela and are known to better research their facts, like THE GUARDIAN

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/...897798,00.html

who says the following:

"Venezuela's private TV stations are owned by wealthy families with stakes in defeating Chavez. Venevision, the most-watched network, is owned by Gustavo Cisneros, a mogul dubbed the "joint venture king" by the New York Post. The Cisneros Group has partnered many US brands - from AOL and Coca-Cola to Pizza Hut and Playboy - becoming a gatekeeper to the Latin American market."
And so on. Its an excellent, well-researched article that backs what everyday Venezuelans know about the media there - that theyre a bunch of liars. The Guardian defends Chavez and exposes the media for what it really is, you should read it.

This guy, Cisneros, HATES Chavez and has done everything in his power to ruin him in the media.

Now the fact that Chavez should have tolerated a TV channel that was DIRECTLY implicated in the 2002 coup against him for so long says a lot about his tolerance level. One thing they dont tell people is that the channel still exists, but only on cable now. What kind of government in any part of the world would allow a TV channel that openly supported a coup against the government to continue to let it occupy public airwaves?? If this had happened in the US, the government would have prosecuted the channel no questions asked. That was TREASON, pure and simple.

As for the land reform issue, check out my previous post, I provided a source there from the BBC that PROVES that only 5 % of the Rich in Venezuela own 85% of the land there. Only 10% of the population is made up of a middle class, the rest, a full 85% of the population lives beloew the poverty line.

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4721961.stm

Clearly, something has to be done to resolve this very, very serious problem of disparity. It is the main problem as to why Venezuela cannot diversify its economy away from oil and as to why millions of hardworking people are not able to support themselves.

Further, Chavez is only moving to take away land from rich landowners who cannot prove they own them in the first place, or are not actively working the land, which I think is fair. If you can't prove you own it, then its up for grabs. Sorry.

As for the right to assembly " without being beaten up" PUH-LEAAASE, you have yet to provide evidence that this has actually happened. And even if it has, that it is something worse than what normally happens during marches and protests around the world, for example, the union of the taxistas and the police having a go at it recently in Bs As over the point driving system. Does this little incident where many policemen and taxistas had their heads cracked open mean that Argentina is no longer democratic???? Of course not.

In no way were the beating up of protestors in Venezuela done on a massive, undemocratic scale as in Burma, where these have been beaten up and locked up without due process, tortured and KILLED by the government dictatorship there. Violent protesters in Venezuela, as they are anywhere else in democratic countries, are given due process and released and certainly not killed. It is also done with relatively few protestors as opposed to the hundreds and thousands of people arrested and imprisoned unjustly in Pakistan and Burma -true dictatorships.


So there you go Julio.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:17 PM   #74
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

was'nt the SIP created by ex CIA agents
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:23 PM   #75
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

Quote:
Originally Posted by undomiele View Post
Julio, honey, Im a girl, not a guy. (When does a guy ever say "honey"?) I was being sarcastic cos you patronised me with your talk of me living in the first world, and you thinking I didnt know what I was talking about. I know exactly what Im talking about. I used to work for the Embassy of Venezuela and been to Venezuela several times. Can you Julio claim a better background for knowing what you are talking about? Have you ever been to Venezuela?



The fact of the matter is the media in Venezuela is owned by the Opposition, by the elite who hate Chavez with a passion. Everything they generally report on Chavez is biased, twisted and untrue. The Cisneros group for example, for a long time, ran tidbits on their programmes that compared Chavez to the devil and all that.

The Free Press Association, a non-profit, independent organisation, said the following earlier this year: "Venezuela’s media, owned largely by the country’s wealthy elites, are arguably the most rabidly antigovernment media in the world."

You should read their article describing the ACTUAL media situation down there and how simplistic it is to say he is against the free press, when they constantly bait and lie about him all the time. http://www.freepress.net/news/20947

I have more sources than that one if you require more. As for the sources you quoted, namely SIP, if you actually researched the organisation a little more you would realise that only media owners, and the journalists they employ, which in the case of Venezuela would pertain to the Opposition, make up the organisation, so you can't really trust what they are saying.

Human Rights Watch, in turn, picks up on SIP information and is a non-governmental organisation that doesn't even keep an office in Venezuela. Of course, people who are against Chavez, both in Venezuela and abroad, are quick to rely on the statements of these biased organisations.

However, there are plenty of reliable sources out there that defend Chavez and understand how the media situation actually is.

When you actually go to newspapers that actually do own offices in Venezuela and are known to better research their facts, like THE GUARDIAN

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/...897798,00.html

who says the following:

"Venezuela's private TV stations are owned by wealthy families with stakes in defeating Chavez. Venevision, the most-watched network, is owned by Gustavo Cisneros, a mogul dubbed the "joint venture king" by the New York Post. The Cisneros Group has partnered many US brands - from AOL and Coca-Cola to Pizza Hut and Playboy - becoming a gatekeeper to the Latin American market."
And so on. Its an excellent, well-researched article that backs what everyday Venezuelans know about the media there - that theyre a bunch of liars. The Guardian defends Chavez and exposes the media for what it really is, you should read it.

This guy, Cisneros, HATES Chavez and has done everything in his power to ruin him in the media.

Now the fact that Chavez should have tolerated a TV channel that was DIRECTLY implicated in the 2002 coup against him for so long says a lot about his tolerance level. One thing they dont tell people is that the channel still exists, but only on cable now. What kind of government in any part of the world would allow a TV channel that openly supported a coup against the government to continue to let it occupy public airwaves?? If this had happened in the US, the government would have prosecuted the channel no questions asked. That was TREASON, pure and simple.

As for the land reform issue, check out my previous post, I provided a source there from the BBC that PROVES that only 5 % of the Rich in Venezuela own 85% of the land there. Only 10% of the population is made up of a middle class, the rest, a full 85% of the population lives beloew the poverty line.

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4721961.stm

Clearly, something has to be done to resolve this very, very serious problem of disparity. It is the main problem as to why Venezuela cannot diversify its economy away from oil and as to why millions of hardworking people are not able to support themselves.

Further, Chavez is only moving to take away land from rich landowners who cannot prove they own them in the first place, or are not actively working the land, which I think is fair. If you can't prove you own it, then its up for grabs. Sorry.

As for the right to assembly " without being beaten up" PUH-LEAAASE, you have yet to provide evidence that this has actually happened. And even if it has, that it is something worse than what normally happens during marches and protests around the world, for example, the union of the taxistas and the police having a go at it recently in Bs As over the point driving system. Does this little incident where many policemen and taxistas had their heads cracked open mean that Argentina is no longer democratic???? Of course not.

In no way were the beating up of protestors in Venezuela done on a massive, undemocratic scale as in Burma, where these have been beaten up and locked up without due process, tortured and KILLED by the government dictatorship there. Violent protesters in Venezuela, as they are anywhere else in democratic countries, are given due process and released and certainly not killed. It is also done with relatively few protestors as opposed to the hundreds and thousands of people arrested and imprisoned unjustly in Pakistan and Burma -true dictatorships.


So there you go Julio.
Yes, I've been to Venezuela and I know extremely well the rich class there (probably as well as you). I agree with your diagnosis, almost 100%. I don't agree with the solution at all. In my view, Chavez is just a clown that is using all that for its own purpose but will not make Venezuela a better country, a more developped one.

And please, dont' compare students being tortured and kidnapped with a taxi driver hitting a piquetero. This is just as wrong as comparing what happened in Venezuela with what happened in Burma (which I never did, btw)

We will have to agree to disagree. There is no point in carrying on with this discussion.

Edit]: your link does not show an articlle written by a journalist of The Guardian. It is simply a link to n article of Naomi Klein which is 5000% more biased than Human Right Watch, which is one of the most progressive NGO. Klein is extremely smart (I agre with many things she wrote in No Logo) but her knowledge of Latinamerica is poor to say the least. Her sources are simply appalling.
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