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Old 11-30-2007, 07:21 PM   #46
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Originally Posted by undomiele View Post
The Carter Centre had independently certified the results of all his past elections and referendums. Obviously the opposition had, and still has, a problem stomaching the idea that Chavez is very popular among the vast majority of Venezuelans, hence the accusations of fraud.

As for the referendum on the constitution, I don't see what the big deal is about. Let the Venezuelan people decide for themselves what they want in a constitution and in a leader. The rest of us should just butt out. But even if Chavez loses, his term will end in 2013 and democracy will be served - what more do ppl want?

Keep in mind that Chavez is proposing his constitutional reforms in a completely democratic manner. A real dictator, a la Musharraf or Hitler, wouldn't have even bothered.

Some people are just 100% set on painting him as a dictator when the facts indicate otherwise.

First, any person who attempts to stay in power for ever is dangeous. No limits for reelection, at least in Latinamerica, is extremely problematic from the democracy point of view. I'm not just talking about Chavez. I would apply the same reasoning for Uribe, esp. now that some Uribe's supportes are trying to reform the Constitution to allow him to run for another term. And I thought exactly the same with Menem in Argentina. I don't take seriously the argument "it's what people want". People may want many things (some good, some bad). The political system is just better off when presidents cannot stay for ever in power.

Second, I assume you really don't know the political climate in Venezuela. THe opposition leaders are constantly haraseed, people who marches are beaten up, the State is messing up badly with private schools. It so funny to some some people from the left ignoring the beating up of students who demonstrate against their government. I'd love to see the reactions if Sarkozy did the same.

Third, the creator of the thread did not say "Chavez is a dictator".What he says is that Venezuela is heading for a dictatorship, which is quite different. In my view, he's clearly right. Venezuela is heading for a typical Latinamerican dictatorship, with a combination of extreme left and extreme right ideology (Carlos Fuentes, the Mexican writter, is right when he defines Chavez as a tropical Mussolini). The time will say who was right.

Edit: It's sad to see people who lives in Scotland, in the US or in France supporting a guy that they would not tolerate for more than 3 seconds in their own country. It's so easy to be a " lefty romantic" when one lives in the first world.
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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I've always wondered why there should be limits on a president's time in office if the people want him to remain. Having a vote to determine if the constitution is changed seems sensible to me. If people want a change it changes, if not it doesn't. The constitution of many countries should be reviewed imo.



In Britain we have a guy who wasn't even elected as our prime-minister but no-one seems to see it is anti-democratic.
That is my whole point. If people want change in Cuba, they can no longer have it. You can only vote for Fidel. I am not arguing that Chavez may not win on Sunday. But he will do it with the vote of the very poor, who he is courting with oil money. When that money runs out and the people who originally voted for change want to change again, they may find it is too late, change is no longer permitted.

In Britain the Prime Minister was elected. Everyone knows that the leader of the Party that wins power becomes Prime Minister.
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:42 PM   #48
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Originally Posted by Julio1974 View Post
Third, the creator of the thread did not say "Chavez is a dictator".What he says is that Venezuela is heading for a dictatorship, which is quite different. In my view, he's clearly right. Venezuela is heading for a typical Latinamerican dictatorship, with a combination of extreme left and extreme right ideology (Carlos Fuentes, the Mexican writter, is right when he defines Chavez as a tropical Mussolini). The time will say who was right.

Edit: It's sad to see people who lives in Scotland, in the US or in France supporting a guy that they would not tolerate for more than 3 seconds in their own country. It's so easy to be a " lefty romantic" when one lives in the first world.
undiomele repeatedly corrects my errors for me. When undiomele insists that the US is already in recession and I point out that leading economists estimate the chance for that is still less than 50%, undiomele claims to be much more knowledgeable than all the other experts and tells me I am ignorant.
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:46 PM   #49
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

what's a lefty romantic , someone who refuses to caricature Chavez ?
btw in most european countries there is no terms limits , so as long as one ( or a party in a parliamentary system ) keeps winning the elections he will be there.
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:54 PM   #50
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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what's a lefty romantic , someone who refuses to caricature Chavez ?
btw in most european countries there is no terms limits , so as long as one ( or a party in a parliamentary system ) keeps winning the elections he will be there.
I don't caricature Chavez. He caricatures himself.

As for the no term limits, I already said that it is extremely problematic in the Latinamerican context, no matter the ideology of who is in power ( as I said, I apply the same reasoning for Chavez or for Uribe). Given our sad tradtion of dictatorships, we should try to avoid that scenario.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:04 PM   #51
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

ok
but he will most likely have to win another revoking referendum where the people can tell him to fuk off , so don't you think that the risk is limited
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:05 PM   #52
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Originally Posted by Julio1974 View Post
First, any person who attempts to stay in power for ever is dangeous. No limits for reelection, at least in Latinamerica, is extremely problematic from the democracy point of view. I'm not just talking about Chavez. I would apply the same reasoning for Uribe, esp. now that some Uribe's supportes are trying to reform the Constitution to allow him to run for another term. And I thought exactly the same with Menem in Argentina. I don't take seriously the argument "it's what people want". People may want many things (some good, some bad). The political system is just better off when presidents cannot stay for ever in power.
Respecting sovereignty is the mother of all democratic principles. The truth is if Venezuelans vote in favour of Chavez's constitutional reforms, that is pure and simple Democracy whether you like it or not. Its their sovereign right to do so. Further, the process is undeniably democratic. You disagree with the principle of electing a president without term limits, but whose decision is that to make? Those of Venezuelans, not yours.

You can hate the result, but you can't say its "undemocratic". Your argument is similar to the argument the Americans used when they overthrew Salvador Allende in Chile - the people democratically voted for someone they didn't like and suddenly it wasn't "real democracy" just because he was a communist.

Quote:
Second, I assume you really don't know the political climate in Venezuela. THe opposition leaders are constantly haraseed, people who marches are beaten up, the State is messing up badly with private schools. It so funny to some some people from the left ignoring the beating up of students who demonstrate against their government. I'd love to see the reactions if Sarkozy did the same.
Honey, I used to work for the Embassy of Venezuela and Ive been to Venezuela several times.

Exactly how many proven acts of beating up of students are you talking about? Very few, I imagine, the amount of beating up that would naturally happen in any country when marches are going on and things get out of hand.

As for the harassment, the key to understanding Venezuela is understanding the level of Class tension that has existed there for decades. The opposition , which represents the upper class, and most university students pertain to this class, hate Chavez, whereas the rest of the country, the poorer class, loves him. There's no real middle class to compromise the two.

In such a country, clashes are unavoidable.

The thing that matters is that Chavez is allowing these marches to go on, like any democratic leader would. Its nothing at all like what is happening in Burma, where people are being imprisoned without trial and getting tortured and killed by the government, although the Opposition in Venezuela talk as if that were exactly the case. Theyre just being shrill.

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Third, the creator of the thread did not say "Chavez is a dictator".What he says is that Venezuela is heading for a dictatorship, which is quite different. In my view, he's clearly right. Venezuela is heading for a typical Latinamerican dictatorship, with a combination of extreme left and extreme right ideology (Carlos Fuentes, the Mexican writter, is right when he defines Chavez as a tropical Mussolini). The time will say who was right.
"Heading for a dictatorship" what is that supposed to mean? Presenting reforms for the people of Venezuela to vote on democratically is a certain path to dictatorship? What makes you think he would stage a coup if he loses the referendum...??? Your own little opinion?? Pfff, you may think you are being rational but the truth is youve long equated Chavez with being a dictator a long time ago and are trying to match reality to your heavily biased ideas.

Funny, for a man who espouses such hardy principles of democracy, the concept of "innocent till proven guily" has cleanly gone over your head. There isn't a single thing Chavez has done to step out of the bounds of reasonable democracy in submitting his proposals to the people. A true dictator wouldnt have even bothered holding a referendum.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:23 PM   #53
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Originally Posted by undomiele View Post
Respecting sovereignty is the mother of all democratic principles. The truth is if Venezuelans vote in favour of Chavez's constitutional reforms, that is pure and simple Democracy whether you like it or not. Its their sovereign right to do so. Further, the process is undeniably democratic. You disagree with the principle of electing a president without term limits, but whose decision is that to make? Those of Venezuelans, not yours.

You can hate the result, but you can't say its "undemocratic".
You have a very limited notion of "democracy". In your view, the Catamarca of Saadi was "democratic", the San Luis of Rodriguez Saa is "democratic", simply because people voted for that. In Argentina, people who believe in civil liberties gave a hell of a battle in Misiones to stop that and we won and I'm proud of that.

I have a broader conception of democracy, not simply "what the majority wants" or "getting elected by any means". .

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"Heading for a dictatorship" what is that supposed to mean? Presenting reforms for the people of Venezuela to vote on democratically is a certain path to dictatorship? What makes you think he would stage a coup if he loses the referendum... pfff, you may think you are being rational but the truth is youve long equated Chavez with being a dictator a long time ago and are trying to match reality to your heavily biased ideas.

Funny, for a man who espouses such hardy principles of democracy, the concept of "innocent till proven guily" has cleanly gone over your head. There isn't a single thing Chavez has done to step out of the bounds of democracy in his proposals.

Not a single thing.
You are being too naive here. You call me biased. You are even more biased if you can't see that Chavez does not believe in political rights, free speech, right of property (enshrined too in the American Convention of Human Right, you know?). Time will say who was right and who was wrong.

But you should not worry. You will still be leaving in the US enjoying your constitional rights.

And please, don't compare Allende with this clown. Allende at least was a true communist. This clown is closer to Mussolini.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:44 PM   #54
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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In Britain the Prime Minister was elected. Everyone knows that the leader of the Party that wins power becomes Prime Minister.
Gordon Brown was never leader of the Labour Party at election time. The people voted Labour while Tony Blair was leader, therefore the Labour Party "elected" the PM who succeeded Blair, and the people did not.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:52 PM   #55
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

I don't understand what the problem with Chavez is apart from the fact that he is a socialist and therefore considered a "threat" by the US. Naturally, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia et al are largely ignored as they are our noble allies in the War on Terror.

Chavez has seemingly done a good job, and seemingly has popular support, and I don't see what the big deal is about him allowing the people to change the consitution.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:39 PM   #56
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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You have a very limited notion of "democracy". In your view, the Catamarca of Saadi was "democratic", the San Luis of Rodriguez Saa is "democratic", simply because people voted for that. In Argentina, people who believe in civil liberties gave a hell of a battle in Misiones to stop that and we won and I'm proud of that.

I have a broader conception of democracy, not simply "what the majority wants" or "getting elected by any means".
Assuming of course that Chavez is everything you think he is, a bad, corrupt, undemocratic leader, blah blah blah, which you have yet to present any kind of credible evidence about, etc. Youre just not making any kind of sense at all. Last time I checked, democracy is still a three pronged system, the minority can still elect their representatives to Congress while the majority chooses the executive leader. The referendum proposal is approved by Congress. This is the case in Venezuela, so what exactly is your problem??? Do you think the minority should settle constitutional issues?

I really don't see the difference between Chavez being in power, then say the fact that the Bush family has ruled the United States for 12 years or that the Clintons are trying to accomplish the same, or that the Kirchners have done the same, or Tony Blair being in power for 10 years plus, etc, etc. The fact of the matter is oligarchs, rich powerful dynastic families and alliances of the upper class, tend to be elected to the executive branch in a lot of so-called democracies. Its a natural trend that the American founding founders anticipated, and why the Congressional branch - the most representative branch - was designed to counteract the Executive.

As for "getting elected by any means" what exactly are you implying? Again, he's doing everything democractically, so what are you getting at? That he won't respect the will of the people if they reject the referendum? He's fixing the ballot boxes? Tell me.

Quote:
You are being too naive here. You call me biased. You are even more biased if you can't see that Chavez does not believe in political rights, free speech, right of property (enshrined too in the American Convention of Human Right, you know?). Time will say who was right and who was wrong.
What actual proof of human rights violations has Chavez committed ?? Illuminate me. All the arguments the opposition have claimed can be explained, and surely do not fall beyond what other democratic leaders have done or are doing in the first world. List that lengthy list of violations for me please. Im dying to know.

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But you should not worry. You will still be leaving in the US enjoying your constitional rights.
Fuck you, I live in the corner of O'Higgins and Jose Hernandez in Belgrano in the city of Buenos Aires, Argentina, and boy is it a hot day. Im 100% Argentine. See where all your pretentious, patronising assumptions of people are leaving you? Your head up your ass thats what.

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And please, don't compare Allende with this clown. Allende at least was a true communist. This clown is closer to Mussolini.
The clown closest to Mussolini, Hitler and those kind of assholes is Bush, not Chavez. Last time I checked Chavez didn't invade anybody.
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Old 11-30-2007, 09:42 PM   #57
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Maybe you mean Sandinistas. Do you kinow who is the president of Nicaragua now?
doesn't matter, because these days there's no such thing as communism anymore and therefore no back-up for those tiny central american countries. their influence is so small that they don't matter on the world stage.

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Actually Rrainer was listing opponents of the CIA.
i listed issues america cared about and took care of it because their interest were at stake vs. communism. what difference does it make today for america if nicaragua is leftist, is having a civil war or would be ruled by a hitler?

so what do they care about today? basically resources. and well, they're good friends with the saudis and have actually taken over the oil supply in iraq. what do they need the hassle with chavez for? venezuela's reserves are like one twentieth of those in the middle eastern states where america shows presence, fully equipped and armed to the bone, protecting its interests. and trust me, if chavez was even close to being the enemy to u.s. interests the media wants us to believe, he'd have been taken care of. america knows how to deal with stuff like this.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:13 PM   #58
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

If you ask me, the upper class in Venezuela had decades to do something about the level of poverty in their countries, to better distribute the wealth and largesse of their oil profits among the poor, to build a welfare system, better educational system, etc. Instead, they spent the oil money on their mansions, their families, their trips abroad, and now that a popular president unaffiliated with their interests comes along to stir up civic consciousness and awareness, to empower the poor, they whine and think its all so unfair. Well, they frickin' asked for it. Their blatant Greed and ideas of self-entitlement throughout the decades is what made Chavez happen. The poor one day woke up and decided they had had enough of them, their lies and corruption, that's all. That's the revolution Chavez is talking about.

Venezuela is a country where less than 5% of the population owns 80% of the land. How is this in any way fair? How can anyone expect to diversify an economy on resources outside of oil, to establish a middle class, when the rich own 80% of the land??? Its ridiculous. Small wonder the poor have had enough of the ruling class and support Chavez.

As far as Im concerned, the Venezuelan elite had had their chance to fix things as they could've, should've, for years, and they blew it. They brought this upon themselves.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4721961.stm
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:21 PM   #59
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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Gordon Brown was never leader of the Labour Party at election time. The people voted Labour while Tony Blair was leader, therefore the Labour Party "elected" the PM who succeeded Blair, and the people did not.
It was a bit ambiguous, as was the post that I originally replied to. I was not trying to say the people chose him as PM, just trying to point out that Brown was elected to Parliament by his constituents and in the British system the party in powerpicks a leader that is called Prime Minister. Also, being Prime Minister is not the same as being President. The Queen can dismiss him.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:24 PM   #60
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Default Re: Despedida For Venezuela

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It was a bit ambiguous, as was the post that I originally replied to. I was not trying to say the people chose him as PM, just trying to point out that Brown was elected to Parliament by his constituents and in the British system the party in powerpicks a leader that is called Prime Minister. Also, being Prime Minister is not the same as being President. The Queen can dismiss him.
In theory she can, in reality we all know that will never happen.

Chavez was elected too, and the CIA are more likely to remove him than the queen is to remove the British PM.
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